We live in a totalitarian European union and have done for some time.
I don't think you know much about totalitarianism.
It is certainly undemocratic and has a nasty creeping authoritarian streak.
Lol.. they aren't, really. Can you imagine what would happen if you let the average idiot in the street actually run the country? Good one
Aye imagine no tax on fuel duty etc it would be funny for about a month
All decisions are taken by the European Commission. They aren't elected. They are appointed. By themselves
No that is just wrong
One of the 27 is the Commission President (currently José Manuel Durão Barroso) proposed by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament. The Council then appoints the other 26 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and then the 27 members as a single body are subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.
so they are elected then- yes it could be fairer[ what system could not?] but I dont recall voting for a UK cabinet nor it being subject to parliamentary approval - the PM can [ legally anyway] do as they please - if the crown lets them anyway.
I was not aware of our parliament say voting on our representative at the UN for example but neither of these seems to get the same frothing about unaccountability etc.
All decisions are taken by the European Commission.
Again this is just wrong and it is not accurate to claim the parliamnet a rubber stamp for them and they can quite literally do as they please. This is the problem those who oppose it say things like this as if they were true or facts and doe snotlook inward at what we have here. The UK democracy fails to seperate the executive from the legislature but yet you are happy with this - our govt [ given no constitution] can literally do as they please but the EU cannot. More importantly the commission - more like a US president- can propose legislation but it needs to be passed by the parliament to become law
it is worth noting that
Powers are more restricted than most national executives, in part due to the Commission's lack of power over areas like foreign policy
Again dont let the facts get in the way of your polemic
The MEP's are just there to basically rubber stamp the Commission's dictats,
Yes it is amazing how often our MP's vote against the government and dont go along with the leaders of their party- What once per decade if that? Anyone last time the givt was defeated in a whipped parliamentary vote - 70's??
Ultimately the Parliament* is there purely as a fig-leaf for one of the most undemocratic, corrupt and self-serving systems of government on the planet....*The word is used figuratively in this instance and does not imply any actual democratic accountability, as that term would be commonly recognised by anyone living in an actual democracy
yes why can they not have a monarch as head of state with the powers to choose election dates, pick a PM/govt and then have the executive drawn from the legislature and a check on this power made up of peers of the realm appointed by the hereditary principle or from political patronage who can only delay legislation [ not if economic]- pah these europeans have nothing on our fantastic democracy do they which is clearly beyond criticism.
but there is truth in most of the objections raised about the way the EU goes about governing us.
yes lots of truth in these crticisms - clearly they are factual points and not motivated by politics.
Its is weird how everyone does this as if our own system is somethow a paragon of democratic accountability where free thinking MP's hold the PM to account 😕
It is also good to be reminded by some that a socialists wants to use our money and not theirs.
I think they want the money to be spread out equally - i assume the EU is not socialist and they seem happy to use" our money "to fund bank bails outs. IIRC thwere was unanimity amongst the right wing about this - not many socialists in europe tbh and unlikely they weild any actual power.
You are free to dislike Europe , the EU the commisoners whatever but if you wish to argue try using the facts in the ground rather than Daily Mail type hysteria and distortion of reality to portray it as some sort of dictatorial unelected unaccountable body - you can make this point about it but you can do this just as easily about our own democracy.
molgrips - MemberWe live in a totalitarian European union and have done for some time.
I don't think you know much about totalitarianism.
Erm.... well the definition goes thus:
[i]Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system in which the state holds total authority over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life whenever necessary[/i]
Can you point out if we've missed anything about the Eurozone there Molly. Because it seem to tick all the boxes to me. This being the same EU that imposes leaders on 'independent' countries if they fail to elect 'their' candidate. And which in referendums (can you believe they've the audacity to still use the word), the electorates opinion is ignored until they deliver the required result. And we'll micro-manage the entire financial system from Brussels, regardless of the catastrophic consequences.
Just because they're not shooting people in the street (yet!) I think the Eurozone presently is the dictionary definition of a totalitarian regime.
Can you point out how it isn't? Because I'm struggling to see one shred of democratic accountability
The UK democracy fails to seperate the executive from the legislature but yet you are happy with this
Am I? I don't recall saying a single positive word about any aspect of the way the UK is governed. Its deeply flawed, yet manages to look like a idealised democratic Utopia next to Brussels!
We have had a house in Spain for about 10 years and keep the minimum amount of money we can in the Spanish bank account.
I didn't trust the Spanish banking system then and i don't trust it now.All the other ex pats i know out there also keep very little in Spanish accounts.
The Spanish bank regularly helps itself to money out of our account,citing reasons such as a charity donation or credit card fee.
They grudgingly put the money back when you complain,but you have to be really attentive and scrutinise the statements.
So it is an interesting prospect that the future of the €, in it's current format, could lie in the hands of Putin. What an odd world!
Indeed! Who needs missiles when you have their money?
It is worrying how the defence of the Euro has succeeded in reigniting previously dormant tensions and power struggles.
In some ways it's bizarre that so much hangs on a "relatively" paltry €5.8bn, even if this represents a gross simplification of what is going on!
It was amusing (in a sad way) when the Minister on Newsnight stated that plans were already in place/being considered to start printing pounds. Paxman, blurted in, "what you are going to start printing £". He must have felt a little silly when the minister corrected him and said, "No Cypriot pounds." Message to Paxo - engage brain first!!!
If Cyprus leaves/is pushed out of the euro it'd be the first crack in the dam. It would also show the eurosolidarity for the farce that it is.
Maybe Dave needs to have a quick [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/05/uk-withdraw-troops-germany-2016 ]rethink[/url] about things in light of the last week 😆
Erm.... well the definition goes thus:Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system in which the state holds total authority over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life whenever necessary
Yes ok I agree with that = good start but it wont last 😉
Can you point out if we've missed anything about the Eurozone there Molly. Because it seem to tick all the boxes to me.
Well of course it does for you as you hate them and your reasons are flawed. Its no better or nor worse than any other "democracy" and suffers because folk object by saying things that are just not true. once said often enough folk start to believe it. notice no one has pulled me up on the facts I gave nor changed their mind due to this.
This being the same EU that imposes leaders on 'independent' countries if they fail to elect 'their' candidate.
Well only if you ignore what actually happened and spin it to distortion did this happen - its a reasonable criticism to make if not somewhat over egged - its not exactly iraqi regime change they did now is it - like what we did. The IMF does the same - this is whathappens when folk lend you loads of money they "blackmail " you into doing things in return - do you think Russia will lend them all that money fo rnowt in return? It is true of all agencies not just the EU biut iof course you ignore that for they are totalitarian
And which in referendums (can you believe they've the audacity to still use the word), the electorates opinion is ignored until they deliver the required result.
Fair point - why dont we have a vote on capital punishment?
That was rather undemocratic to be fair and the leaders are definetly ahead of the populus in their desire to integrate.
And we'll micro-manage the entire financial system from Brussels, regardless of the catastrophic consequences.
Yes everywhere is doing well where it is not micro managed by EU [ cheers Gideon cannot wait to read about the growth and the debt reduction- they have caused all of this global slump all of it
Just because they're not shooting people in the street (yet!) I think the Eurozone presently is the dictionary definition of a totalitarian regime.
Respectfully your are taking your hyperbole to stellar levels now
Can you point out how it isn't? Because I'm struggling to see one shred of democratic accountability
yes I could and have but you wont listen.
I don't recall saying a single positive word about any aspect of the way the UK is governed. Its deeply flawed, yet manages to look like a idealised democratic Utopia next to Brussels!
yes johnny foreigner does it so much worse than we do as a quiclk analysis of the democracy would show 😉 and 😕
They [cypriot politicians]are pretty clear about the fact they dont want to leave whatever those outside the zone think - apparently those who did not join becaus ethey thought i t wa sflawed still think it is flawed and off course totalitarian in natur e- well who would not take this reasonable position in light of the evidence 😯If Cyprus leaves/is pushed out of the euro it'd be the first crack in the dam. It would also show the eurosolidarity for the farce that it is.
molgrips - Member
We live in a totalitarian European union and have done for some time.
I don't think you know much about totalitarianism.
Aye you are right I obviously don't but I do know that I don't live in a democratic Europe. I suspect that you get the general point I was trying to make though. Unless you have no idea on how law making works in the Eurozone.
well i gave you the facts which ones of those make you say it is totalitiarian and ours is a better less autocratic system?
the thing with integration is it is a very slow process to change the hearts and minds of folk with some obvious teething issues and folk looking after their own - dave on not doing a bankers wage cap for example and stopping all reforms as the city is so important to our national interest. France on agricultural reforms there are examples from each country/political persuassion to be fair
In the UK we have had a union for some time here and even here the process of integration is not complete and [ given devolution one could argue never likely to be more than it is now]. Indeed some in northern england and other regions feel over run by the south and by London centric policies.
The arguments used against the EU work against any system tbh and are not something that can only be used against the euro land.
we have a system to govern 500 million folk in 27 countries so it is not that surprising that there is some discontent.
I find these threads strange thb and hand on heart I do not know which way I would vote in a EU referendum but the vitrol and poor arguments used to justfy it is quite shocking for what is a well educated audience.
I realise i come across as some sort of pro EU fanatic but i am only trying to counter the vitrol with the facts.
i dont think it is going well 😐
the thing with integration is it is a very slow process to change the hearts and minds of folk with some obvious teething issues
Teething issues?! [b]teething issues?![/b] 😯
For Gods sake JY! You constantly make this ridiculous assumption that to think the Euro as a currency a stupid, always destined to fail idea, and the present state of the EU woeful, means that you're Anti-European!!! It doesn't!! It means you object to the present cobbled together, unnacountable, self-serving mess, which is going to end up bankrupting a continent
Here's a couple of articles on the shambles and total absence of leadership at the top of the EU. Not faxed through to me by Nigel, but from that rabid, hysterical, foaming at the mouth, right-wing, anti-European tabloid The Guardian:
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/18/cyprus-bailout-eurozone-crisis-larry-elliot ] Cyprus bailout shows European policy elite has learned nothing from crisis[/url]
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/economics-blog/2013/mar/19/cyprus-eurozone-cunning-plan-bank-bailout ]The fatal flaw in the eurozone's not-so-cunning plan for Cyprus[/url]
[i]So bank depositors in Cyprus would be obliged to pony up one euro for every two provided by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund, with the levy imposed across the board. Cyprus was a special case, it was insisted, and therefore there would be no knockon effects to the rest of the eurozone.
The notion that the Cypriot parliament would reject the proposal was not factored into the calculations, a fatal flaw in what one City analyst compared to one of the "cunning plans" conjured up by Baldrick in the Blackadder series.[/i]
means that you're Anti-European!!! It doesn't!! It means you object to the present cobbled together, unnacountable, self-serving mess, which is going to end up bankrupting a continent
your unbridled enthusaism is shining through in every post Binners.
Pperhaps we should go on a ride and just argue about this in the pub afterwards..you with an honest pint of bitter and me with 500 ml of cidre. 😉
I disagree with what you say - fair point re teething problems though its a bit more than that but integration is never easy - you are on the Scotland thread for example and that is hundreds of years later.
as for whether it fails or not it still remains the case that if they refuse to let it fail it wont fail. The issue will be whether they will pay the price [ or the electorate are willing to pay the price]
In this case the cypriots have three options
1. Bankruptcy
2. Get in bed with Putin
3. EU/IMF bailout
I am not sure the Euro has been causal in this rather it was the ludicrous lending rates as a % of the GDP that has caused it coupled with greeces inability to tax it citizens [ and possibly cyprus given some anecdotal posting on here] and pay the piper. Well and they probably lied [creative accounts] to join in the first place
If it happend in the euroland you balme the euro but it is more complicated as we have not exactly done well of late etiher and have done some bank bailing out ourselves
I am chuckling at your [joke fury] reaction to teething issues - it was not meant like that [ to get a reaction] but fair point
Lets go for the ride and pub option 😀
Junkyard, your belief in the way thinks are supposed to happen in Europe is touching. It restores my faith in human nature, we'll believe anything if it's called the right name and we are told it often enough.
That by the way is from a none Daily Mail reader, do you accuse everyone who knows that you are incorrect on some of what you say of reading that rubbish paper.
Which of the totalitarian EU's directives/laws would you reverse?
Which of the totalitarian EU's directives/laws would you reverse?
Humans rights of course, imagine people expecting to have rights its a bloody outrage that the EU should force such personal protections onto all of us.
😉
Start from the most recent and work backwards.
Humans rights of course, imagine people expecting to have rights its a bloody outrage that the EU should force such personal protections onto all of us.
They don't, the ECHR does which is separate from the EU.
Which of the totalitarian EU's directives/laws would you reverse?
Metric weights and measures sale restrictions
I want to still be able to go into the shop and get a quarter of rhubarb and custard, then next door for a pound of sausages.
Its my right as an Englishman!
Plus the girl looks at me funny when I ask for 454 grammes of emulsified high-fat offal tube!
They don't, the ECHR does which is separate from the EU.
The European Convention of Human Rights, was agreed by all EU member states, any new state wishing to join has to agree to be bound by the convention. It is very mush of the EU.
It is actually agreed by far more states than the EU, 47 states have signed the ECHR, I seem to recall, including notable non EU members such as Russia and Turkey. The Council of Europe is completely separate from the EU, although all EU members are members of the Council as well.
This is a commonly misunderstood point.
Cypriot banks now likely to remain closed until 'next Tuesday'.
That was the point i made re the claims made that i countered with facts about the eu/democracy etc that no one even tried to refute/counter. Your plagiarism is flattering. As for believing what is said it would appear that despite the evidence, and unable to produce any when challenged about it, that some folk still think that the EU is a totalitarian regime and think a straw man and an ad hom is sufficient response to some facts and the following challengeJunkyard, your belief in the way thinks are supposed to happen in Europe is touching. It restores my faith in human nature, we'll believe anything if it's called the right name and we are told it often enough.
well i gave you the facts which ones of those make you say it is totalitiarian and ours is a better less autocratic system?
no i use it for folk who repeat some frothy right wing slightly loony xenophobic stuff that runs counter to the actual evidence on the ground.That by the way is from a none Daily Mail reader, do you accuse everyone who knows that you are incorrect on some of what you say of reading that rubbish paper.
So does Binners read the Wail or is it just mt? I hope you two will enjoy the beers and cidres! But Mark will miss the lengthy re-buttals no doubt on the STW post scores!
So the extra "closed" period - is that to find a new solution (plan c) or for Gazprombank to complete its due diligence on Lailki or Bank of Cyprus? Perhaps both!
I'd imagine it's a desperate measure to gain time for a solution, any solution...
Meanwhile in the real world... How would the UK cope if/when it happened here?
I guess it depends on what "it" is? Do you mean Cyprus bail-out/rescue/default/possible exit from € or do you mean the same thing happening in the UK?
A UK banking crisis. Yes I know things are different here, but not better...
Cone on JY. Calling people xenophobic and loonies for criticising the Euro and the EU is just ridiculous! its a bit like those crying anti-Semitic when anyone criticises the actions of the Israeli government . It's daft, and its lazy!
Calling people xenophobic and loonies for criticising the Euro and the EU is just ridiculous!
TBF purporting to be left-wing whilst supporting the EU is equally ridiculous.
So it least there's some consistency.
But Mark will miss the lengthy re-buttals no doubt on the STW post scores!
not sure he will but he may like the peace and quiet, so might you though 8)
Binners respectfully you are going on about anti democratic practice [ ignoring UK ones]and claiming it is a totalitarian regime.....this is a position that is laughable tbh and when challenged with facts you/they get ignored and folk insists it is still the case yet they can present no evidence of totalitarianism - be fair its is hyperbole if not "loony"
I find it hard to believe you think you are putting forward a well reasoned and well researched position that is factually accurate re democracy /totalitarianism.
Quality EL
Ernie, spot on and that's what I really don't get. Leaving aside whether Europe satisfies the criteria for and Optimim Currency Area (IMO, it doesn't, hence my opposition to a fixed currency in Europe), it is strange that people with a LW political persuasion can support a construct that forces massive wage deflation and or unemployment on the bulk of its population. Very odd indeed!
Ohnohesback - massive question probably beyond here!
Not to mention making working class savers pay for the mistakes of bankers so that bond holders don't have to take a hit! Eh comrade? 😉 You really couldn't make it up
Reports that €4.5bn of deposits left Cypriot banks in the week prior to the announcement - friends in high places, or an amazing coincidence?
The cabinet?
Hello Junkyard, I apologies for for not having your great knowledge and experience of how EU law is brought about, framed and how this effects the Eurozone. I can only comment on my actual involvement on how EU law is formed and brought about by eurocrats and consultants acting for EU commissioners, they know nothing of the field they are trying to frame well meaning (possibly) laws and rules but then end up with a directive that does not do what was intended, this then gets passed by the EU commission and rubber stamped by the EU parliament based on what was intended not at the outset, not by what is contained in the directive. If you have the time take a look at the "ErP directive on the Eco design of energy using products". A classic in wasted time for no actual gain in the understanding of electrically powered equipment (very well meaning though). I realise that this make me a xenophobe to you but to me it is an example of an opportunity missed and I'm trying to work on another that is hazardous industry related that will go the same way. It's very exasperating and costly to many when laws that you (as outside specific industry related) may not be involved in on a day to day basis are so poorly understood by law makers and instigated. These are not headline laws but things that effect the way products are made, sold, documented etc. Some can be safety related, some very useful products that become illegal to sell even though they serve a purpose and are required in certain industries. One law in particular involves a mandatory prison term for non compliance without a definitive interpretation of what the law actually is.
So please forgive disagreeing with you, again I humbly bow to your greater understanding 🙂
Since I have rather stupidly allowed myself to get involved in this thread I apologies, now back to the Cyprus issue and some of the posts that seem to offer better insight than the bollocks that some of us spout. i shall now flouncing out. Must also mention that I'm now on the outside of several pints of a rather nice EPA.
Brinkmanship stakes rising today with ECB [s]threatending[/s], sorry "advising" that the Emergency Liquidity Assistance will only be considered if the EU-IMF program is in place. You do have to love:
“I don’t think the ECB is using threats,” Mr Dijsselbloem said. “The ELA facility can only be made available to banks that are [solvent]. There has to be at least the prospect in the near future of a programme of recapitalisation, of bringing these banks within a safe haven again.”
If a bank is solvent why would they need the ELA? The second sentence is also incompatible with the first! In those we trust......
Interesting idea floated in FT about the role the Turks should/could play:
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2013/03/21/guest-post-turkey-to-the-rescue/#axzz2OAfd9o3T
a bit of flaming in the blog afterwards!
xcgb - I hope you have contingency plans, looks like this could get messy if your cash is in BoC or Laiki
Looks like we've reached this point then?....
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Emergency Liquidity Assistance will only be considered if the EU-IMF program is in place
Its laughable that the EU/ECB/IMF think they're still in a position to be issuing [s]threats[/s] ahem... advice. I think the Euro powers-that-be need to contain this situation a lot more than the Cypriots do. And they know it! Which is why Cyprus is calling the EU's bluff.
It'll be interesting to see what happens to the attitude of governments in the rest of Southern Europe now that somebodies had the balls to front up to the school bully, and told the Germans to **** off!
I am not sure there is much rationality on either side - people are being swept along by events as usual.
I know its childish, but I did giggle to see the name of the Governor of the Central Bank of Cyprus - "Panicos" Demetriades! By Monday, he may well be living up to his name. Reuters are reporting that the notes from the meeting are pointing to high levels of panic and emotions on both sides with now open talks of Cyprus leaving the €-zone. You have to love a Frenchman saying that "the Cypriot parliament is obviously too emotional and will not decide on anything.", the ironing!
The Cypriots are now claiming that "we didn't discuss a deposit haircut and we are not reverting to it." Haircut? I though it was a tax? 😉