I sold my big V8 Monaro last week and if I had the time I'd love to have something like a Caterham. TBH I get enough enjoyment from MTBing - that's a big enough time and money drain without another car!
A caterham, whilst still impractical, noisy, sometimes uncomfortable
sounds perfect! if i'm getting a stupid car as a toy i want all of teh above! the point is that its stupid.
(i currently run a rolling project rusty VW type 2 which is also most of the above but also slow!)
I think that’s why Caterham are priced at “Proper Car Price” rather than “Some old rubbish thrown together with bits of Montegro” price. The point of the Caterham experience (sorry) is that it’s all the kit car fun with none of the usual kit car hassle. You can throw a blanket over it in Winter, and come back in the Spring and it will start.
I'd say it's the other way around, Caterham are selling you a '7', it's a well-developed and sorted car.
Kit car's range from the Robin Hood which used too much of a Sierra in an effort to make it as cheap as possible, to bonkers stuff like the Ultima which was capable of embarrassing suercars when it was launched. In between you've got allsorts, from the sensibly cheap options like folding and riveting a sheet of aluminum together to save on bucket seats, to throwing any old mishmash of worn out motorcycle shock absorbers on and hoping for the best.
Trouble is, the difference between a £5k car build and an £10k car build is 100%, but all those dampers, bushings, pedal boxes, steering wheel, dyno time, etc that eat up the extra cost above just getting a car shaped object through an SVA are what will make the difference.
I sold my big V8 Monaro last week and if I had the time I’d love to have something like a Caterham. TBH I get enough enjoyment from MTBing – that’s a big enough time and money drain without another car!
It's not too bad.
I've got an old MG, which is even worse, but as long as you can resist the temptation to spend £££ on new shiny parts, then the actual day to day running costs are no worse than an average family car's depreciation. e.g. it destroyed it's differential last time out, but that only actually cost me a weekend refurbishing the axle (stripping old paint and repainting) and a full set of gaskets and hub bearings as I bought a good-ish axle as part of a job-lot on a pallet and built one good one and sold on the OK bits from the pallet to make the money back.
BMW Z4 3.0 for about £4k, strip some of the interior to get the weight down do ~1100kg
a z4 has nothing like 270kg of interior in it. At most you could pull out the passenger seat (<30kg) and you'd still be nearly a quarter of a tonne over your target weight and have no way to carry a passenger.
I’ve got an old MG, which is even worse, but as long as you can resist the temptation to spend £££ on new shiny parts, then the actual day to day running costs are no worse than an average family car’s depreciation. e.g. it destroyed it’s differential last time out, but that only actually cost me a weekend refurbishing the axle (stripping old paint and repainting) and a full set of gaskets and hub bearings as I bought a good-ish axle as part of a job-lot on a pallet and built one good one and sold on the OK bits from the pallet to make the money back.
Don't. My willpower for resisting new/shiny/better is negligible with bikes, and similar with cars. Plus there's a bit part of me that's not done with having fun in a car, so I'm on shaky ground here. Financially my Monaro was one of the cheapest ownership experiences overall - zero depreciation offset the higher running costs and ongoing maintenance. It's more the time aspect, give it a few years of house DIY etc and I'll be begging to have a car to crawl under again.
a z4 has nothing like 270kg of interior in it. At most you could pull out the passenger seat (<30kg) and you’d still be nearly a quarter of a tonne over your target weight and have no way to carry a passenger.
A Z4 3.0se is 1290kg - so 190kg. You can take out the AC, the seats, the carpet, centre console, bulkhead storage, behind the seats storage, boot soundproofing/storage, door cards, etc. Having completely stripped the interior (not the boot) of a Z4 (have you?) I can tell your that there's easily over 100kg in the cabin. The seats alone weigh almost 35kg. A racing bucket is less than 7kg. You've just stripped 63kg from just the seats! The door cards are over 5kg. The centre console/back of seats area is almost 20kg and we haven't even got to carpets. There's not much sound proofing under the carpets. 100kg is achievable without getting silly.
I've owned 4 Z4s - 2x 3.0Se, 1x 3.0Si Coupe and a Z4MC.
Raced a Caterham for 6 years. It is a tried and tested product and holds it value. In racing I've seen many big accidents and they are remarkably strong. I wouldn't trust any other 7 replica to do the same.
I got back what I paid for mine. Other 7 type replicas are built to a lower cost and are heavier and do not hold value. My view would be take a loan and buy one. Enjoy and then sell on.
BTW I don't know why anyone would buy one and not do track days etc. IMHO its a pointless format for the road, they are just too quick/uncomfortable to enjoy safely and at legal speed limits.
Caterham and Westfield will
definitely be out of budget - as will Dax.
I part built a Tiger Cat E1 and later bought a Tiger R6. The Cat E1 had quite a bit of sierra in it - rear suspension unit unbolts off thensierra and bolts in under the back of the Tiger chassis. Most have sierra pinto engines but I put in a Raw Wngineering Toyota 4AGE 1.6 lump. Much lighter and reviver and more power than a pinto. It was a lot of fun and should be at the cheaper end of Tigers.
The R6 will 100% be out of budget but it was epic - lighter / more powerful engine / more custom parts etc than the Cat E1.
I’d avoid Robin Hoods - they are really quite poor vs virtually every other caterham 7 clone. Bigger / heavier / slower etc.
There are lots of variants on the locost theme - I think a few companies starting selling that type of chassis and things like wiring looms etc. I imagine buying one secondhand is a minefield as you have to judge the quality of the build.
Sylvia / Raw striker is quite small - I very nearly bought a Fireblade engined one but then life got in the way and I bought something sensible instead. They are properly quick with the right spec and handle really well. Would imagine they’re out of budget too though.
I always had a hard on for the 'Dax Rush' kit cars, the best 7-alikes
https://completekitcar.co.uk/2022/04/06/dax-rush/
Getting something like a Z4 down to 1100kg is still absolutely nothing like driving a car that is 550kg. A Z4 will never feel the same to drive (neither will an MX5) as a Caterham so don't really understand why they are being suggested.
If you cannot get a decent Caterham like car for £5K, which it appears you can't really, then that is the answer - you can't have one.
BTW I don’t know why anyone would buy one and not do track days etc. IMHO its a pointless format for the road, they are just too quick/uncomfortable to enjoy safely and at legal speed limits.
hence why i want a slow one. the fast ones are just pointless on the road. having a slower one to start also helps the learning to drive it process.
i`m quite keen to potter about, do some wales/ devon drives, go to the bike park etc. take the kids out - nothing fancy. i dont have that competitive edge to do track stuff well.
Had a mk2 MX5... Sports suspension (had what felt like 25mm of travel, pot holes were to be avoided), braces across the engine and underneath the rear, lsd, straight through exhaust. The guy we bought it from had it from new and upgraded everything.
It ripped round corners. Was a laugh in the alps and driving through Tuscany with the roof down, shades on. Was great in winter as the heater was awesome and the interior space was tiny so it heated up quick (whereas the T5 took forever) and with skinny winter tyres the back end was lively.
Despite all its practicality and more or less trouble free ownership over the five years I still yearn for a Caterham..... Not just yet, but for when I find my place in the sun. Trouble is a left hand drive versions are silly expensive.
I sold my big V8 Monaro last week
🙁
A guy I used to work with had one of those Robin Hood version. It looked shit.
My ex-boss's mid-life crisis was to build a Caterham at work to race in a series as he had had am inflated opinion of his own driving skills. He binned it a couple of times, finished near the back in every race and then flogged it. Happy days!
Possibly an alternative, but will be over £10k would be a TVR Chimaera.
to bonkers stuff like the Ultima which was capable of embarrassing supercars when it was launched.
One of the directors at a place i used to work had an Ultima GTR. Last i saw it it was still the same bright red car, but had been through several incarnations.
Kept upgrading and modifying every year. Engine, wheels, brakes, suspension, interior and so on.
(Not quite kit car, but someone at my current place of work has a 962C... Which is all sorts of lovely.)
@The FlyingOx, you'll have to be the sole V8-bike-carrier on STW. As if Golfie wasn't an exciting enough day out without a bit of V8 fun on the way to/from:
And it's not exactly 'something like a Caterham', but it's equally as close as the Z4s mentioned above (and I had one of those for nearly 5 years): you'll get into a reasonable Monaro from £7k upwards if you want a different - but still fun - experience. My one above was a bit more at £12k but you'll get a similar experience in a non-VXR model.
“something like a caterham” for £2500. get it bought!
Someone did say they didn't want a fast one, so that's perfect!
“something like a caterham” for £2500. get it bought!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165738021027
Someone did say they didn’t want a fast one, so that’s perfect!
thats class! is it a sinclair c5 underneath?? probably still faster than my T2!!haha
Eldest daughter has a 92 Eunos which she has restored mostly her self with help from her Grandad. It's been tuned a bit and the latest addition is a Turbo
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Latest project is an 98 Evo 5 which she bought and had shipped from Japan
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Fancy a red mx5 1.8 with some of the rust issues sorted? Owned by me for the last 7 years with no mechanical issues in that time! For a fraction of your budget 😉
TBH isn’t there the added issue of being gassed and waking up in a Welsh village with a number if you drive one of those things 🙂
Dum dum de dum dum dom dom.
Ooooww I do like an Evo,both fun and reasonably practical.
Have you checked you fit in a Caterham? (not being rude, but they are tight, I really struggle with the pedals (aside from squeezing my ass in)
I’d love a Caterham, but an MX-5 would be as much fun.
MX5s are better value for money, but its really not the same experience as a Caterham. MX5 is also so much more practical (dry, space etc).
MX5’s are rust boxes, so buy carefully
Thought that was only the MkI and MkIIs? Are MkIIIs as bad?
MK3s are just as bad, they are just newer. There are some proper rotten mk3 MOT fails starting to come up for sale cheap just now, one up for £600 on facebook just now with visible holes in the sills (as well as the arches bubbling, subframe corroded through etc etc)
£5k wont get a caterham, but will get a project 7 style car. Just be aware a lot of them are basket cases of years of DIY bodjery, based on a questionable build done by a random person years ago. Bike engined cars are cool, but bring their own problems. A lot of variations in suspension types depending on the build (if you care?) Do you want an axle, IRS etc?
A £5k 7 type car I would expect to have to do a fair bit or remedial work on, so would budget time and money accordingly.
If you are not going to track it I would just buy an MX5 or similar, and use it a lot more on the road. But if you want a 7 type car, you want a 7 type car, nothing else is the same raw experience. Track days dont have to be competitive, you can explore the limits in a safe environment. (very easy to get sucked in end up chasing lap times, power etc)
The standard S3 caterham is as bigyan says... Very snug! So try before buying. There is the SV which is slightly vider and slightly longer,
If you haven't been in one, it really is worth hiring one first for the day or weekend, just to see if you get on with it as they are so very different to anything else on the road. Other sports cars are low .. a caterham you can put your hand on the floor when sat inside.
As others have said, they are unpleasant on the motorway, I only take mine on the motorway reluctantly, but country A and B roads, there is nothing like it... Another thing is the 7 club: heading out for a run with other 7s is just next level enjoyment.
Re the pedals in a caterham, the pedal box is very narrow, so narrow shoes are pretty much an essential, those race driving boots are the best thing,but you look a bit of a plum.
There's a lot of adjustment that can be made to a caterham cockpit, the seat can be moved beyond the adjustment of the sliders, lifted or lowered or tilted, the pedals can be adjusted for spacing plus angle etc,so just can set them up just so for proper heel and toeing.
I'm standard STW recommend what you've got way, I was going to suggest an eunos (mx5).
But then this popped up on my FB feed 🤣
Hate this thread. Read it on the train home yesterday, last night idly looked up old MG's for sale. Oh, one not so far away. Reg has my daughter's initials. Sent email to the seller. His reply:"Why not pop over?"
Bought it for £5k this morning. Silly boy.
There's places you can hire a caterham or similar and give it a proper road test, actually live with it a wee bit.
Some of the disagreement in this thread is because they're all things to all men- you can get a turnkey "kit car" or you can get a box of bits and a rusty mx5 and bodge it together and not be able to go for a drive without a bit falling off, and all the wheels point in different directions. And they're both great. If I had one, it'd be a shit one, because that's what I'd enjoy- dealing with failure, bashing it together myself, learning the skills I don't have while doing it for the first time ever, and making bad decisions. If I had a good one it'd be pointless. The old boy on my old street that I used to lend a hand to occasionally will probably never finish his, and at this point, he's got no use for it anyway, he probably got too fat for it a decade ago. But he loves it.
So it's one of those things where the only way to do it right is to first understand what doing it right means for you. And there's people that no matter what it'll never be right for them.
Same as my mx5- I spent ages finding the perfect spec with hardly any rust, and ignored the minor details that the paint's all falling off and the crank's shagged. Drove it the length of the country and did a trackday with it rattling its little duratec heart out. And now I have an even worse mazda 6 to rob the engine out of. It's an absolute disaster all round and I couldn't be happier.
It’s an absolute disaster all round and I couldn’t be happier
Deserves recognition as the most uplifting thing in the Internet today!
I’m liking this thread. For the OP’s budget I would be going for an MX5. I’ve got an Elise and when I was buying it I drove a few Caterhams. Each to their own but the Caterhams were too impractical for me and I wondered whether I’d get the use out of one. Something like a MX5 with a practical roof is a year round car that you can drive everywhere, you feel OK on motorways.
Caterhams seem best on track. You see plenty of MX5 at track days too which is the real place to enjoy a car like this. Most of the Caterhams at track days seem to arrive on trailers!
tonyg2003
Full MemberMost of the Caterhams at track days seem to arrive on trailers!
Yeah, there's definitely a heirarchy! TBH though with track use it's not so much trailering it there, it's being able to trailer it back, it's only a matter of time til something goes wrong...
Trailer's more a sign of space than anything else though, wish I had room for one. And a car that can legally tow, that'd be useful
I’d love a Caterham, but an MX-5 would be as much fun
This is absolutely not the case.
The Tiger R6 I had was nuts - so much fun. 2 litre zetec on twin 45 webbers - think around the 160bho mark. I think it was about 500-550kgs and just had the windscreen (no roof or widescreens). It had straight cut gears in the box with an extra long 1st and 2nd and massive tarox front brake callipers / a light sprinkling of carbon. As a road car it was fantastic - on track it was best on tighter twisty stuff as once they get around 100mph they have the aero dynamics of a skip.
My wife had an mx5 but one of the later ones - it was ok - but felt slow and quite heavy. I’ve driven a few mk1 and mk2 mx5’s but again they felt very slow. Maybe with a turbo conversion and lsd fitted they could be amusing.
I haven’t had an Elise (test drive one with the 190bhp Toyota lump in) but I had the 2.2 litre 145bhp VX220. That was riot - slower than the Tiger but with more top end as it was more aerodynamic. One of the best cars I’ve driven in snow too quite randomly. I think they’ve got expensive now too though.
I actually preferred the Honda S2000 I had to the mx5’s I’ve driven - slightly snappy on the rear on the early models but the engine is a masterpiece for a 4 pot - revving it out to 9000rpm was a lot of fun.
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Well my brother got himself a Porsche Boxster 3.2s for £3.5k.
Ok so its needed some work, brake caliper rebuild, srut top mounts and some niggling bits but its fricken lovely.
£175pa classic car insurance as its 2003my through PorscheGB club.
Its fast. Relatively practical, quick enough for the uk, not exceptionally tiring after a long drive.
Or find a nice mx5 then get a engine builder to help you to 320bhp with the tirbo and parts from a 323 gtr. They were super rare and came with a massive turbo known ad a disco potato. Cams and pistons would need changing, plus injection system and a new ecu but it will be fast. Might cost double the budget though
I've been looking at this for 2-3 years, hoping circumstance would work out, which it hasnt done so far !
My conclusion was that if you spend less than £10k on anything someone will have cut corners with maintenance/build etc which is ok if you want a project car, but not if you just want to get in and drive.
MX5's and Porsche Boxsters etc are very different cars. An Elise is the most comparable, but they are big money now and not quite as bonkers in a good way as a Caterham /Westfield etc but many of the drawbacks.
This is absolutely not the case.
It depends what you want the car for though. Not everyone who has a 7-ish wants a 160bhp fire breathing monster, as you say as they get near to the ton aero stops them from doing much over that. and your bum is so close to the ground that 50 feels like 90 anyway . My Westy barely made triple figure horse power, I think it was something like 107bhp of something daft like that from a 1.6 Ford, it could still do 0-60 in 6-7 seconds which is plenty fast enough on the road when it's got no roof and you're sitting on the floor.
I mostly used it to go to and from the pub with the missus in the summer, an MX5 will replicate that pretty well TBH
The mx5 will be amusing, but not at all the same experience. The Tiger (and similar cars) you feel much more connected to the road and when you get a bit of oversteer it feels like the car is pivoting around you. The snort of the carbs / stones pinging off your head (I recommend a motorbike helmet for motorway journeys) / exhaust popping and banging next to you etc. So raw.
I think my tiger was mid sort of power for a 7. Loads with more power than that / lighter etc.
Thinking about it - if the MX5 is enough of an experience I’d also suggest the mk3 Toyota MR2 is worth a look. Last time I looked you could pick ok an ok one for about £3k. Pickup the VVTli 1.8 from a celiac and it drops straight in for a nice boost of power from 138bhp to 190bhp - that engine has a real rush towards the redline in a light car. I looked into that or the v6 from a Camry which apparently fits at one point. Went with the S2000 instead though.
Pickup the VVTli 1.8 from a celiac and it drops straight in for a nice boost of power from 138bhp to 190bhp –
You'd only be able to get that sort of power increase if you're a gluten for punishment.
Oh, bravo! 🙂 <applauds>
Pickup the VVTli 1.8 from a celiac and it drops straight in for a nice boost of power from 138bhp to 190bhp –
You’d only be able to get that sort of power increase if you’re a gluten for punishment.
👏
Pissing iPhone autocorrect
I think MK3 MX5's are sorted, but not cheap. Still a big market for older MX5's - loads of cars used for drift etc. They just need some work.
Z4.. would be nice, or a Z3.
I've driven an Atom on the track, **** me they are back to basics. Didn't enjoy it at all. Felt like it was going to kill me. The Nissan GTR was a scream - the computer kept you on the track. Incredible.
