[Closed] British steel- I'm being abit thick here. Please explain.

MT - there was an automotive production guy on the radio saying exactly this. He said that the car plants in the UK would never use cheap Chinese steel due to quality issues, so they'd now have to import that instead of getting it from Port Talbot, which would increase their costs

A question for Jambawibble and THM, do you think steel making is a strategic industry?

what is a "strategic" industry - uncle Vince tried to explain and he didn't include steel, but he wasn't clear.

Steel isn't strategic or important. Credit default swaps are where its at!

what is a "strategic" industry

Estate Agents?

On many high spec projects (oil/marine, Power gen, Nuclear) the projects specifically state no Chinese or Indian steel to be used due to poor quality. Just thought I'd mention it speaking as an actual manufacturer in the UK

You don't expect some shiney arsed money juggler to understand this do you ?

God help them if they ever need to replace steels in any structures around the city eh

And real answers?

As humourous as the glib responses are they don't really address the question do they? It's very easy to hide behind glib sound bites, especially as a politician, but actually hard to come up with proper answers.

Ducking the question?

Ok is steel making a vital industry to keep going come what may? THM You seem one of the more hawkish among the STW brethren, what are you going to make your tanks, ships, guns out of? Papier Mache ?

You don't expect some shiney arsed money juggler to understand this do you ?

God help them if they ever need to replace steels in any structures around the city eh

Have you heard of Building Control Officers? Classification Societies? Warranty Surveyors?

If a "shiney arsed money juggler" though they could make significant savings by using cheap inferior steel, they would be doing it now.

I already said No earlier in the thread @Pigface

Interesting to now try and label steel as 'strategic' given that the foundation of the entire EU was a free trade coal and steel pact, set up in the aftermath of WW2 with the specific aim of [i]preventing[/i] war by removing competition for natural resources... Oops!

Brillo has just pointed out in Twitter that the latest figures (January) show the UK importing £202m from the EU and only £80m from the rest of the world inc. China and India... Again, Oops! 😳

No, just wondering what strategic means before answering it. Here's a few possible criteria

Contribution to total output/national income
Number of people employed
Market share and international competitiveness, contribution to trade
Relevant to other industries
Potential substitutes
National security
R&D
Relevance to killing other people
Nostalgia
Etc, etc

It seems a very broad concept that doesn't fit an easy one-word answer

Paper tanks now why didn't we think about that before?f

fwiw, I am not hawkish on the issue. I just prefer sensible solutions and have very few from any politicians or industry representatives since the news broke.

The two main parties are saying the same thing, which is ST government support, which makes obvious sense, but Labour have dressed it up in a better sound bite "nationalise to stabilise" - despite the baggage that comes with the term nationalise. But as ever, the devil will be in the detail

Interesting to now try and label steel as 'strategic' given that the foundation of the entire EU was a free trade coal and steel pact, set up in the aftermath of WW2 with the specific aim of preventing war in Europe [s]by removing competition for natural resources... Oops![/s]to ensure a balance of power

FTFY

Well it might of prevented war in Europe, we seem to like getting involved a bit further afield of late though.

THM so I guess you are ok with no steel and us relying on others if the need arises? As you want us to leave the EU isn't it even more important to have control over such things?

Strategic Businesses. On reflection I don't think there are any businesses which are strategic. Hospitals, police, military - they are strategic

Post at 13.11 to show how strong our realtionship with China is
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/apr/01/tata-steel-crisis-uk-ringleader-china-sajid-javid-port-talbot-live ]Guardian business live[/url]

pigface I would prefer that your didn't put words into my mouth - and at no stage have I said that I am ok with no steel production and I am pro EU (but anti €). But apart from that, as you were....what did meatloaf say, none out of two ain't bad...

....and "strategic" or ducking the question? 😉

THM please accept my apologies I all get the impression you supported a Brexit

Don't know what Dundee's reliant on, but none of those seems to involve an enormous integrated works built up over a century.

Ferrals - that's the tin lid! Reinforces what many people have already said about not sticking to the "rules" of international trade.

Fair do's

fwiw - your question is an excellent one. Interestingly, it is extremely hard to define a strategic industry, indeed many professional bodies have tried and there is plenty of research in the matter but little hard definition - plus it's is dynamic issue too. Any easy term to bandy around but a hard one to tie down.

Historically, Dundee was very reliant on the three Js so applying the logic earlier, this is important when considering its future - or not as the case may be

I think at this point we actually need to think of what we are going to do with PT it's population. No UK government (of any colour) would buy it from Tata. There is no political mileage in saying that we are going to be losing £350m to £500m per annum just to keep a plant and related industries open, plus all the pension liabilities. In reality this means everyone in the UK paying £5 to £10 per year for a product that we can't sell.

Given the sheer oversupply of steel across the planet, there is no way it makes business sense for the factory to remain open. We may not like, we can all see the impact that it is going to cause, but stuffing our head in the sands and praying that someone will buy it is stupid.

Rather than spending the £350m pa on running the plant, the government could commit that sum for the next 10 - 15 years to fund growth in new business in that area. It won't be enough, but at least it is solid enough start.

However there are no easy solutions, if there was we would be following it already. We need a plan which accepts that the s*** has hit the fan and ALL parties need to back a plan for the future and not resort to sound bites or simply slagging off the other side. Perhaps if we could all do that (and that includes Dave and Jeremy acting in statesman like manner) we could actually do something that might help?

So would increasing the EU tarrif on cheap Chinese steel to American levels, not help Tata?
Tata and European Steel Association think so, the latter stated that the UK had been the ringleader in blocking the tariff change at the EU in February, just after the visit from Xi Jumping...

It seems that Osborne's so desperate for the Chinese to bail out his economic disaster that he's willing to sacrifice the jobs in the steel industry and the local economies it supports

The strategic question is a good one, and until now, I thought it might be the argument that won the day. I assume by 'strategic' people mean "cannot be allowed to fail because we need to commodity/product so badly we can never rely on sourcing that product as an import for fear of being deprived of it".

I've always thought there *were* strategic industries. (Say the kind of high tech defense things QinetiQ do.)

I'm less sure now I've thought about it.

If you wanted to make Britain Surrender by depriving us of something you'd pick first water (no chance, it falls out of the sky) then food. So our second most strategic business is food production. Well that ship sailed in Napoleonic times. We can't possibly feed ourselves.

So if our second most strategic product is completely at the mercy of foreign powers what's the point in protecting (say) No11 and No15. I'm not even sure where steal would be in the list - certainly below energy.

The "strategic" trump card doesn't exist.

Kimbers: Well, yeah, obviously steel makers want their competitors' products taxed more heavily so that people have to buy their more expensive products! They get a short term gain from that and if other countries impose retaliatory duties on other UK products - well, snot their problem gov

It seems that Osborne's so desperate for the Chinese to bail out his economic disaster that he's willing to sacrifice the jobs in the steel industry and the local economies it supports

In other words he's prepared to shore up (say) 500,000 jobs by sacrificing 40,000.

If that hypothesis were true it would be the *right* thing to do.

It seems that Osborne's so desperate for the Chinese to bail out his economic disaster that he's willing to sacrifice the jobs in the steel industry and the local economies it supports

Given whats come out this morning, its hard to reach any other conclusion.

Same as him not supporting sanctions against Russia as the City is awash with dirty Russian money that its laundering for them

There are sanctions on Russia that target those actually responsible for the Ukrainian invasion etc and they have practically killed Russian corporate financial activity in London (and Cleethorpes). hth

Strategic Companies - National Grid? EDF Energy? British Telecom? Urenco? - increasingly Serco.

Poll by Sky News sugest 66% of british population favour nationalisation of PT steelworks.

Seems to be growing appetite in EU for stronger protectionist strategies for steel. If UK gov't can get on board with that, and assuming we stay in the EU we could potentially get somewhere.

It seems that Osborne's so desperate for the Chinese to bail out his economic disaster that he's willing to sacrifice the jobs in the steel industry and the local economies it supports

it is extremely hard to define a strategic industry

No it's not, Sir Humphrey would have no trouble - a strategic industry is one whose closure would lose you the election.

HTH

Doubtful - the let's make stuff up momentum is growing. And what is Jamba accused off!!! 😉

Protectionism - phew, we are all saved!!!

Mefty 😀

it may help if those governments across Europe (the UK voted against this) that are worried about their own steel industry raised the import duty on any product sold at below the cost of production. Perhaps China see's steel as a world strategic industry and are planning to control it as they are successfully doing on rare earth metals (you need them for your electronic/alternative energy industries).

I'd not like to see a nuc power station built out of Chinese/indian steel or an oil rig for that matter. Shell are fully conversant as to what happens to 316L stainless steel sourced from the most economic suppliers (with certification) on one of the worlds larges floating production and storage vessels.

Some berk on radio 4 yesterday was trying to say we don't need steel for defense purposes, his example of the UK purchasing Armour plate from Czechoslovakia before the WW2. Bet that was a sustainable supply chains once the actual war started.

However you define strategic, we need to have a secure supply of steel in the event of troubled times or to ensure important projects have the material needed.

Tata are going to ensure that UK steel is over and they plan to purchase another steel producer in Germany very shortly. It's not in their interests to have a rival to the plants they already own in The Netherlands.

It would also help if we could all develop a "buy British" policy when possible, rather than the very Yorkshire selfish "I'll not be ripped off". This approach may keep our neighbours in a job and paying their taxes. Yes I know its an old fashioned view but it works for me, as I like seeing stuff being made here.

PS I should own up and say that the closure of TATA steel making will affect our company, they purchase from us and we supply to them. Jobs at our place rely on them. Never mind though as we are just some thick northern manufacturer that living off all that tax paid by the banking and finance industry in the south. Our 60 staff are as expendable as all the other manufacturing jobs in the UK. I'm sure we'll be able to get a job at McCrapbugerking. Am I taking this badly F..kin Right.

Worked In the 70s too - at least for the flag, badge and sticker makers

[I]Poll by Sky News sugest 66% of british population favour nationalisation of PT steelworks.[/I]

Now ask that 66% how much they'd personally be prepared to spend doing so, methinks that it'll be far, far less.

[i]Worked In the 70s too - at least for the flag, badge and sticker makers [/i]

The public sector could itself be somewhere to start buying British.

It would also help if we could all develop a "buy British" policy when possible,

This.

We can't possibly feed ourselves.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Of course we can feed ourselves. It would be difficult, and some of us would have to accept being a bit thinner and less choosy, and as in WW2 it would require a concerted collective effort but it could be done. But not if we got rid of the capability altogether, which is what we're discussing here.

Irony if true...

Faisal Islam's(Sky News) tweets:

[i]New tariff announced today re Chinese steel. 46%.
By China. On EU. hi-tec "Grain Oriented Electrical Steel". Made by...Tata Steel in Newport[/i]

[i]China says that "Grain Oriented Electrical Steel" has been dumped by EU in China causing "substantial damage" to justify a 46.3% duty[/i]

[img] [/img]

The public sector could itself be somewhere to start buying British

It's illegal to not have a completely open and balanced tender process.

You must compare all EU bids evenly.

Irony if true...

The strategic question is a good one, and until now

Maybe it's one of those things you will only miss when it's gone.

Don't know what Dundee's reliant on,

Tesco! There are about 10 of their F****** extra superstores in the city plus the national call centre. It should really be renamed TescoTown

but none of those seems to involve an enormous integrated works built up over a century.

On a more serious note the jute trade in Dundee was massive. There were a lot of very large mills that employed a good number of the cities population. It was also one of the main users of the port (along with ship building and whaling) and rail network. When the mills closed there was mass unemployment but eventually they realised that something else had to be done and the city moved on to other trades.

What I have never understood about the miners, steel workers in Wales and the car builders in Birmingham is why they have never though to do something else other than what they used to do. This isn't meant to be a criticism but i genuinely don't understand the attitude of not moving on to other things if your trade is shut down. An example is the oil workers many of whom have (admittedly not all) found alternative work in other trades instead of sitting around for the next 10 years complaining that there is (comparatively) little oil industry left.

Of course we can feed ourselves. It would be difficult, and some of us would have to accept being a bit thinner and less choosy, and as in WW2

We imported food in WW2.

In fact we imported all kinds of stuff. Heard of Convoys? Same in WW1.

What do you think German Submarines were doing in both world wars - they were trying to stop the supply of the UK. That only works because we aren't self sufficient.