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Now whilst becoming radicalised isnt like catching a cold; just something you go too near and it infects you … you got to have a certain level of leaning towards that ideology to start
Of course. The decisions of 15 year olds are never influenced by their peers. I hear they are thinking of taking the word 'grooming' out of the dictionary too, because that's not a thing any more.
So ISIS are on the brink of loosing and she now wants to come back!! No chance.
So the question is, are there ideas that, no matter how sincerely held, make you incompatible with living in normal society?
She thinks that a head in a bin doesn't matter because of the ideas it once held. But she wants us to treat her head like the ideas inside don't matter?
Remembering the stuff isis were putting online at the time she decided to go join them, its hard to say she didn't know what she was getting into.
Turns out it was a bad decision, but it sounds like she'd still be there in a society based on religiously sanctioned slavery, rape and murder if things hadn't gone whoopsie for the murderous little shits.
We should do for these people what we did for Hess after WWII. Give them a nice prison or island under international control, keep them safe, give them more than one book to read and make sure they don't leave.
I'll probably go to hell for using this quote in this context but: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." Maya Angelou
Maybe the only good thing to come out of ISIS was that it let the worst people in the world stand up and single themselves out.
Lets do the only moral thing. Take them at their word and keep them away from everyone else.
People saying she should be let back in like she is the victim here are the same people wondering how the right are making gains all over the place.
So your solution to right wing populism is to become more right wing and populist?
Some people need to understand the requirements of international law and the global ramifications of nations choosing to ignore it.
Whilst I'm torn on this one, I'm leaning towards one side of the argument. But as others have said the BBC article might be reflective of the BBC's right-wing leaning.
I would rather take a repentant refugee of ISIS from the same camp, even if they weren't a UK national.
Some people need to understand the requirements of international law and the global ramifications of nations choosing to ignore it.
that's the job of the Home Office, we're having a philosophical debate.
I think ETP has it. Bring her back, hell bring all of them back, stick them on an island and then we can figure it out. St Kilda would be a good start.
International law isn't a tit for tat affair. You can't just say yeah but caliphate then strip someone of inalienable rights.
that’s the job of the Home Office, we’re having a philosophical debate.
The universality of rights is a part of that debate.
The kid can be taken into to care, she should be left where she is. People saying she should be let back in like she is the victim here are the same people wondering how the right are making gains all over the place.
Exactly what ransos said. You enjoying being on the right wing side?
If and when Syria finally has a sensible and stable government, why would they wish foreign born IS fighters and sympathisers to remain there? It's very arrogant to assume the decision to let them rot should be with us.
I also think it is all fine and well us discussing what we think motivates a 15 year old child to travel to the middle east to join IS, but the best source comes from the individual in question and I do t mean from a BBC interview.
I think the government will have to bring her (and her two friends) back eventually
Bringing one of her mates back might prove to be problematic. I hope the government really like jigsaw puzzles with really tiny pieces.
No sympathy from me but just saying that Western Democracy must live up to what they preach.
FFS I find myself agreeing with chewkw.
So your solution to right wing populism is to become more right wing and populist?
It’s not like separating children from their parents at borders hasn’t already been a success. I dunno, maybe keep them in cages too?
that’s the job of the Home Office, we’re having a philosophical debate.
1. Yes, let’s leave the debate to that famously competent government department led by the hugely capable Sajid Javid. It’s not like he’s known for poor judgement, huge bias or as a talentless fool.
2. This debate if it was ever purely or largely philosophical, has not been for some time. An especially poor point as I was referring to someone else’s non-philosophical post.
Listening to the government line on r4 this morning, sounds like a fairly pragmatic, we’ll deal with her according to the rules if she makes it somewhere with consular support but no-one is going to be put at risk to ‘rescue’ her.
Seems fair.
On the radio this morning it was very clear she has to approach a consulate before anything could happen.
However, then the media wades in, ill informed public get involved and before we know it politicians are bringing her back.
Did she vote Leave?
and before we know it politicians are bringing her back.
Corbyn? He’s got form with terrorists... 😉
Was it naïve of her to have this interview, or just naïve to insinuate that she only wants to return home for the healthcare. Would she want to go back to Syria once the child is healthy and can fend for itself?
A 15 year old who ran away from home. Has had two children die. Seen horrors of war.
Not even a sliver of compassion? Just straight to “**** that bitch”?
I'm struggling to find compassion for her (I'm trying though), even if she was 15 when she was indoctrinated she has seen it for 4 years now and seems to have no regret and remorse.
I am more compassionate towards her unborn child (and 2 dead children) who didn't make that decision and if she is left there 'to rot' will probably rot with her.
But I don't know how to square the two. Is she responsible for her children and in making her choices has condemned them and it's now just collateral damage? Aren't we supposed to be better than that?
Thousands of German, Italian and other POWs settled in the UK after WW2. They were allowed to stay, to bring their families, to contribute to our society and they weren't even British to begin with.
Would she want to go back to Syria once the child is healthy and can fend for itself?
I don’t mind her child coming to the UK - it’s guilty of no crime at all.
I feel very little sympathy. She joined a movement that wanted to wipe out our way of life and now that's failed, she wants to come back and take advantage of everything that our way of life has to offer; safe hospitals, hard-won medical expertise, security and presumably social benefits. My first reaction is to tell her to Foxtrot Oscar but then I think that by allowing her to return we show humanity and decency. I don't expect she will realise that though; she seems pretty cocky to me.
I don't think anyone with links to ISIS or whatever should be allowed back.
If you bugger off to join a terrorist organisation it should be treated as treason.
Turn her over to the Americans and let her rot in Gitmo, or send out some SAS hit squads and just get rid.
No guarantee she could be de-radicallised.
Morally she's our problem and we need to take her back. (As someone else pointed out, as things stand that could well involve taking her Dutch ISIS fighter husband as well because of their right to family life.) I doubt any of us are overjoyed at taking on people who think chucking gay people off buildings is desirable but I don't see why that's another country's problem.
Legally Google says it isn't legally possible to make someone stateless but the BBC say:
"There is a distinction between those who have been actual fighters and have been involved in atrocities themselves. In the case of some of them, the British government has removed their British citizenship and they are effectively stateless."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47229181
So maybe there's some wiggle room to legally avoid taking them on, but I'm not sure that helps us much because we can't reasonably leave other countries to sort out our nasty citizens IMHO. ~8 people per 100,000 die in childbirth so with luck the problem might sort itself out.
having listened to her lack of empathy and how she described a "head in a bin" , I personally think that she made her bed so either stay where you are or come home and face justice for being a willing member of a terrorist orginisation who took part in genocide.
She wants her baby to be looked after? fine, there are a lot of childless couples who would be happy to adopt. Surely that would be preferable if her thoughts are only of her child.
Let her come back but make her life really really hard,
.1st off no wifi or 4G signal, she has to make do with 3G.
.She has to live in Peterborough eating only brussel sprouts.
Her only form of transport is a 'mansized' steel Apollo mounting bike from facebook with a 'back break that dun't werk'
I’m struggling to find compassion for her (I’m trying though), even if she was 15 when she was indoctrinated she has seen it for 4 years now and seems to have no regret and remorse
Did the indoctrination stop after she arrived? Maybe her lack of remorse is a coping technique, maybe she is aware Isis will hear the interview.
I'm not saying she didn't make her choices and will need to deal with the consequences, but these are not normal circumstances that have brought her to this juncture, so we need to maybe go on a little journey before we arrive at "**** that bitch, let her rot"
She wants her baby to be looked after? fine, there are a lot of childless couples who would be happy to adopt. Surely that would be preferable if her thoughts are only of her child.
The Child will be born in Syria and it will have Syrian Citizenship (Or joint UK/Dutch/Syrian citizenship?) I wonder how that changes things? As parents of a Syrian citizen do it's parents get some kind of right to reside in Syria? For me that would change everything, at that point this delightful family will have made themselves Syria's problem and the UK can legally and morally walk away.
"Saudi Arabia or ****stan.
What is her link to those countries? Why does her brain washing not make her a risk there just as much as back here?"
She definitely should not be sent to either of these countries, as people say she doesn't sound that repentant.
Both countries are fertile areas for islamism and potentially dangerous if there was revolution, she may help sow the seeds a little more.
Ultimately this would be more dangerous and worse for this country.
Let her come back but make her life really really hard,
.1st off no wifi or 4G signal, she has to make do with 3G.
.She has to live in Peterborough eating only brussel sprouts.
Her only form of transport is a ‘mansized’ steel Apollo mounting bike from facebook with a ‘back break that dun’t werk’
NO PUDDING!
Leave her to rot where she is!
Let her come back but make her life really really hard,
.1st off no wifi or 4G signal, she has to make do with 3G.
.She has to live in Peterborough eating only brussel sprouts.
Her only form of transport is a ‘mansized’ steel Apollo mounting bike from facebook with a ‘back break that dun’t werk’
I was with you for most of that but eating only brussel sprouts. That could result in a chemical warfare attack on the people of Peterborough the likes of which we have never seen. Do you want their blood (OK, retching) on your hands?
having listened to her lack of empathy and how she described a “head in a bin” , I personally think...
Or she could well be suffering from a combination of brainwashing and trauma. That's the sort of thing that could take years to unravel. From what she said it sounded like the same daft girl that was sold a romantic lie, all that stuff about dying together with her pals.
Nobody ever said the right thing to do was the easiest thing to do.
Edit: and yes, she may well be keeping up appearances knowing full well what happens to "traitors of Islam".
I feel very little sympathy. She joined a movement that wanted to wipe out our way of life and now that’s failed, she wants to come back and take advantage of everything that our way of life has to offer; safe hospitals, hard-won medical expertise, security and presumably social benefits.
Well I was totally with you on this bit! She's a parasite who has shown not one ounce of remorse for the actions of the group she left.
She come across as one of the most stupid, selfish people I have ever had the misfortune to hear interviewed. 2 kids, both died, yet had another anyway. Now wants to come back to the country she despises and take advantage of the values she despises.
Id happily let the kid back in for adoption, but she can rot as far as im concerned.
She doesn't come across well, does she? I suspect she might not be a UK citizen anymore anyway and the government will use that as a reason. It is a hard one as she seems fairly unrepentant and she could be a useful tool in the hands of folk wanting to radicalise Muslims. On the other hand, if she was full of how it was all a big lie and she regrets every minute of it then also a tool for good....However I am not sure of how successful attempts to reprogram extremists have been and she didn't really seem to be at all contrite about ISIS.
Thousands of German, Italian and other POWs settled in the UK after WW2. They were allowed to stay, to bring their families, to contribute to our society and they weren’t even British to begin with.
It's a good point scotroutes but I am not sure what you are trying to say with it.
Are you saying that Syria could and should have the morals to let her remain there, or that if we are prepared to let foreign born fighters stay in the UK after a devastating war that we should have no problems readmitting one of our own?
It's not a dig just looking for clarification.
Or she could well be suffering from a combination of brainwashing and trauma. That’s the sort of thing that could take years to unravel.
Perfectly true (in which case she needs a chance); but by no means guaranteed. I've been getting fed up with BBC News recently and have been watching a fair bit of France 24 on Freesat; they've given a lot of coverage to refugee camps holding large numbers of jihadi brides from across the world (so we're hardly unique). Most of the women they've interview have had an atrocious time, know that they've been had and are desperate to return home; however some report that IS have instructed them to return to their home countries to strengthen and re-group prior to a "re-launch" of IS.
It's all a huge mess and something that's going to be really hard to unpick; I suspect that this case may be one of many.
If people really want to deal with the issues of radicalisation and the terrorism that logically emanates - why not tackle the elephant in the room that the British government not only insists is not there but also is adamant is not an elephant - Saudi Arabia.
More danger is represented from the radical interpretation that emanates from that nation. Strangely we don’t mind this - perhaps as we make huge amounts from arms sales to them...?
I am sure with a bit of crowd funding ,there could be a Valentines day weekender in Amsterdam sorted out for her and the Dutch partner. He could show her round,meet the inlaws ,etc.
Thousands of German, Italian and other POWs settled in the UK after WW2. They were allowed to stay, to bring their families, to contribute to our society and they weren’t even British to begin with.
But how many of those were willing fighters and how many were conscripted?
I think there is a huge difference between being told to fight for your country regardless of your beliefs or face the consequences and choosing to fight to impose your beliefs on the rest of the world.
Are you saying that Syria could and should have the morals to let her remain there, or that if we are prepared to let foreign born fighters stay in the UK after a devastating war that we should have no problems readmitting one of our own?
Both - but primarily the latter.
But how many of those were willing fighters and how many were conscripted?
We didn't ask.
I would genuinely rather give a home to the people of Syria, that her and her mates, raped and tortured. She doesn't seem repentant in the slightest, and we'd be better off giving new life's to the people of Syria who actually want to live here.
I don’t think anyone with links to ISIS or whatever should be allowed back.
If you bugger off to join a terrorist organisation it should be treated as treason.
Turn her over to the Americans and let her rot in Gitmo, or send out some SAS hit squads and just get rid.
No guarantee she could be de-radicallised.
She was a child at the time. She made the decision to leave when as a society we feel she does not have the mental capacity to legally
Choose to leave school
Choose to drive a car
Vote in elections
Have a child
Choose to smoke or buy a drink in a pub
Join the armed forces and die for your country.
There are loads more. People believe she made a reasoned decision to enter a war zone however she is 3 years too young to purchase a copy of Medal of Honor and do the same on an XBox 360.
As a child she seems to have witnessed things we could not believe. Desperately surviving in a refugee camp, heads in a bin, no contact with family, three teenage pregnancies and the deaths of two infant children. One of her best friends blown up, and an admission of shame at what her other friend will think of her wish to come home. She doesn't sound remorseful enough??? How best to find out the whole story of what she really thinks and got her into this position, I wonder??
Better than a short transcript from a BBC interview, we could get a wealth of meaningful information if she returned home. Far more useful to fighting radicalisation than intelligence extracted from wooden splints under fingernails, an ear hacked off and a slug to the back of the skull.
Scotroutes. I agree with both, and agree that the latter is more likely. I think it would require a huge mentality shift in a country to allow opposing fighters to remain in a country so destroyed by a war. Although destruction took place in the UK during WW2 it did not see the bulk of the fighting. Having Italian POW's remain in rural Orkney after WW2 is hard to equate with the Syrian situation just now.
Exactly what ransos said. You enjoying being on the right wing side?
The thing is if the left wing has gone that far that my attitude towards this person is considered right wing then there isn't much of a choice to be made is there?
She was a child at the time. She made the decision to leave when as a society we feel she does have the mental capacity to legally
Choose to leave school
Choose to drive a car
Vote in elections
Have a child
Choose to smoke or buy a drink in a pub
Join the armed forces and die for your country.
I assume you mean 'didn't'?