[Closed] Breaking up the Union. What would it mean for the constituent countries?

However even if we do make less money, we'll have a better standard of living because we won't be wasting our pension, education, and health funds by expensively killing people in other countries.

Yet more hyperbolic hyper bollox. The Scots regiments have always been a more than willing part of the British Army and I think you'll find a high number recently deployed in Afghanistan expensively killing people.

Trailmonkey - the Highland clearances were mainly - but not always - carried out by Scots landlords, who were often the Clan chiefs of the very people they were dispossessing - their own relatives in fact. Ok, most of these landlords were absentee landlords living in London/Edinburgh etc but they were still Scots.
It seemed that sheep were more profitable than crofters so out the poor buggers went. As you say, the same thing happened at some points in England as well although the Black Death was one cause of the land being turned over to sheep raising as there simply weren't enough people left alive to raise crops in the rather labour intensive methods of the C14th.

If TJ is right about Scotland being richer after Independence then they'll be able to pay the high tariffs we'll impose on the border and our coastal waters for any of the goods they import 😉

trailmonkey - Member
...Yet more hyperbolic hyper bollox. The Scots regiments have always been a more than willing part of the British Army and I think you'll find a high number recently deployed in Afghanistan expensively killing people.

Of course we Scots love killing people, but a Scottish government wouldn't waste money shipping troops to exotic foreign countries when there's so many people to kill right next door.

(Makes as much sense as your answer)

Why does my answer make no sense ? Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

Of course we Scots love killing people

Not that funny given recent football related matters 🙁

Elfinman, you're starting to sound more more and more like "Dennis Cooper" with your absurdly zealous English chauvinism

It gets people more fired up and livens up the debate a tad. Works every time, too. 😀

No, we've done the ins and outs of it all, and if it's for purely economic reasons, it's a pretty daft idea. Britain is better together.

If TJ is right about Scotland being richer after Independence then they'll be able to pay the high tariffs we'll impose on the border and our coastal waters for any of the goods they import

You can guarantee the rest of Britain woon't give them an easy time on that score. 😉

Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

Well I remember the lone piper on Sword Beach on D Day.........gave us a right morale boost I can tellya. Gawd bless'im.

Well I remember the lone piper on Sword Beach on D Day

Yeah you're about that old, in't yer? 😀

I saw it at the pictures - I felt as if I were there......moved me to tears, hearing that piper did.

Let's face it ...... Gerry never stood a chance, when confronted by that level of spunk.

trailmonkey - Member
Why does my answer make no sense ? Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

What I am saying is that a Scottish government will not be wasting money fighting post colonial wars if we have full independence.

Actually, speaking of War and that; I wonder what the Scottish Nationalist position was during WW2, when Britain's borders were under threat of Nazi invasion?

And what of all the brave [s]English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish[/s] British soldiers who gave their lives defending Britain? How do the Scottish Nationalists view their sacrificial efforts? Need they not have bothered? 🙄

What I am saying is that a Scottish government will not be wasting money fighting post colonial wars if we have full independence.

No of course not. You'll be a completely seperate economic entity to the rest of the global north with no incentive to get involved.

Grow up.

I wonder what the Scottish Nationalist position was during WW2,

Happily and quietly enjoying the fruits of the empire brfore wwii, happy to fight for it during.

Elfin, a bloke i know had a Grandfather who was an ardent Scots Nationalist and apparently he buggered off to Ireland for the duration as, in his words "It's a bloody English war".
Mind you, his other Grandfather did fight in the war - with the SS! 😯

Happily and quietly enjoying the fruits of the empire.

I don't know why you keep banging on about that, the ordinary British people, Scottish or otherwise, never enjoyed "the fruits of the empire", that was restricted to the privileged few.

Do you really think that people from European countries without empires, such as Scandinavia, fared any worse ?

I don't know why you keep banging on about that, the ordinary British people, Scottish or otherwise, never enjoyed "the fruits of the empire", that was restricted to the privileged few.

Well considering The UK is a relatively affluent nation in global terms, and people here enjoy a standard of living much higher than most people on Earth, I'd say you're talking bollocks really. That wealth is mainly as a result of colonialisation. The wealth has trickled down throughout British society, to a situation where no-one in the UK suffers poverty on a scale seen in the Indian Subcontinent, Africa etc (IE the countries Briatain exploited). Nowhere even close. Even the poorest here are far far better off. As for Scandinavia, have you never heard of the Vikings? They've only really become wealthy nations in the last hundred years or less, in modern terms though.

Just seen a bit about the sectarian letter bomb thingies on't news. Not a good advert for Scotland I'd say. 🙁

As for Scandinavia, have you never heard of the Vikings?

So the Scandinavian people are today enjoying fruits of the Vikings ?

I'm glad that you said it was me who's talking bollox.......I would have had trouble working that one out.

Some questions:

[b]Elfin[/b] - out of interest, where did you find that chart?

[b]Duckman[/b] - 'that chart is well known', where have you seen it?

[b]TJ[/b] - I'm not sure what you do, but please tell me its not related to economic development...

TJ - I'm not sure what you do

😕

You've been here 2 years and you come out with that ?

Have you never noticed TJ before ?

Am I loosing my touch Ernie? or just loosing touch?

Elfin - out of interest, where did you find that chart?

On tinternet, innit? 😀

Based on figures from HM Treasury though so should be reasonably accurate.

So the Scandinavian people are today enjoying fruits of the Vikings ?

No, you said this:

Do you really think that people from European countries without empires, such as Scandinavia, fared any worse ?

So I gave the Vikings as an example of Scandinavian Imperialism. That's all.

So I gave the Vikings as an example of Scandinavian Imperialism.

Why ?

I asked whether ordinary people living in certain European countries during the period when Britain had an empire, fared any worse because their country didn't have an empire ?

Was the question too difficult for you to understand ?

And to help you answer the question, here's a clue : Charles Dickens wrote of the abject poverty and misery which confronted the masses in Britain, during a period when the British Empire was at its height, and when Britain was the wealthiest nation on Earth.

On tinternet, innit?

Based on figures from HM Treasury though so should be reasonably accurate.

I was just wondering because I drew it!

Ernie - noticed, yes. Know what he does (other than post on here), no.

I'm a nurse.

I am not interest in your segue Ernie. I'm watching 'Walking Dead' now.

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I'm a nurse.

Thanks. If i promise not to comment on medical matters, will you promise not to comment on economic development trajectories? 😉

I am not interest in your segue Ernie

So why did you comment on my post ?

I wasn't even talkin to you, you daft herbert.

Well don't then! 🙄

If i promise not to comment on medical matters, will you promise not to comment on economic development trajectories?

What a daft suggestion.

I for one, reserve the right to comment on any subject, including ones which I know nothing about.

including ones which I know nothing about.

Indeed, you're especially good at doing that!

And why not ?

Economists are always very keen to give their opinions, despite the fact that many are completely clueless.

Then there are government ministers.......very few have any qualifications concerning their brief. And yet that doesn't stop them from making life altering decisions within their portfolios, which effects the whole country.

Having opinions on issues which you know nothing about, is not restricted to a privileged few you know.

there is so much to choose from {BOOM TISH]

Elfinsafety - Member
Actually, speaking of War and that; I wonder what the Scottish Nationalist position was during WW2, when Britain's borders were under threat of Nazi invasion?...

The Highland Division was sacrificed at St Valery en Caux to hold back the Germans to allow all the rest of the army to escape via Dunkirk. Was that commitment enough? My grandfather was there. His last couple of days were without ammunition and just bayonets against armour. He was "lucky" enough to be gravely wounded, so survived as a PoW.

CaptJon; your chart made all the national(up here) newspapers,including the Sundays.Personally I find it a bit cheeky including the money spent on fighting wars as money received from the state. But hey-ho; Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics. Allows elfin to feel all generous,so some good I suppose.

Trailmonkey; you are ace!Going from explaining how we were begging for an act of union to suggesting ordinary people in Scotland were benefiting from the empire at it's height. Life expectancy in Manchester/Glasgow in 1895 was 42 years,maybe it was all the rich food they were eating?

Duckman YGM

If anyone has seen it in a newspaper can you let me know please. I had no idea, and one of the things I'm researching at the moment is getting academic work out to the public.

Btw, the data isn't my creation, I just used an existing report and visualised it.

Life expectancy in Manchester/Glasgow in 1895 was 42 years,maybe it was all the rich food they were eating?

Check out what life expectancy was in other parts of the world at that time. Check out why the population of the UK was rising even though birth rates were falling.

Ordinary people in the UK benefitted from the empire, work in shipyards etc, and Scots were among those - no question.

You're boring, Bob.

My God!! The nightmare continues!! Will it ever end?

I never really had a problem with the Scottish before (even the English ones TJ). But that was before last night. Things have changed.

While enjoying a lovely evenings ride from Rammy up over Holcombe Moor, I stopped by the tower to take in the view, and what was to shatter the perfect tranquility of my lovely sunny jaunt?

Bagpipes! Yes! ****ing bagpipes! Bagpipes? In bloody Lancashire? I ask you. Where it was coming from, christ only knows. But the bloody awful droning sound of bagpipes was echoing over the moor

It was one of you lot wasn't it? Was it you TJ? Daubed in blue paint, with yer bloody kilt on? Out to spoil my evenings riding? It was wasn't it?

I demand answers!!!

Life expectancy in Manchester/Glasgow in 1895 was 42 years,maybe it was all the rich food they were eating?

Check out what life expectancy was in other parts of the world at that time. Check out why the population of the UK was rising even though birth rates were falling.

Ordinary people in the UK benefitted from the empire, work in shipyards etc, and Scots were among those - no question.

Here is a question; Industrial(North) US 56.7 years
Germany 61.3 (had a pension system by 1895)
France 55.1

So,the benefits of working in a shipyard were? 😀

As I teach; Population grew in the second half of the 19th century due to the implementation of clean water acts,improved medicine(and understanding of causes of disease)new Taxes on bathtub gin being introduced,taxes on soap and windows being scrapped.Factory acts banning kids from mines and mills until they could read,which made it less important to have lots of kids to work for you,so birthrate fell.In other words people were still living in she-yit but were healthier.BTW you do know a large part of the population in Scotland could not work in the shipyards because of their religion,don't you? Makes that a poor example.

Also the l/e in Glamis, a village outside of Dundee was 70, which would suggest that the people not benefiting from the union,lived longer

Binners it was me but I wasn't playing bagpipes - i was gnawing on a cats tail

So,the benefits of working in a shipyard were?

You got to meet Billy Connolly? And Possibly Alex Fergerson

I suspected as much. Curse you TJ!!!!

Seriously... it was quite weird. I could hear bagpipes as clear as day and I was on my own on top of an empty moorland

duckman, your figures on life expectancy differ drastically from those quoted by Roberts in his European history. I'm at work right now but I'll quote them later when I get home.
Also your reasons for rising life expectancy simply proves my point about a richer society benefitting the UK.
As for sectarian issues in the shipyards, well you can hardly point a finger south of the border for that can you ? ( I'm sure you will though )
As for your point about welfare provision, I agree, we were way behind Germany, probably still are. Most countries were.

You are missing my point,standard of living for ordinary people was much worse during the time of the empire,despite your claims otherwise.Improved medicine only meant that they could survive a little longer in their squalor.Catholics were also excluded from Liverpool's shipyards,is that Scotland's fault? Again,poor choce of example.

your figures on life expectancy differ drastically from those quoted by Roberts in his European history. I'm at work right now but I'll quote them later when I get home.

I'm not being funny fella, but that's the saddest thing I've ever heard. You're going to finish work, with a sunny long bank holiday weekend stretching away in front of you - and instead of going riding, or sitting outside the pub, your going to Google statistics about life-expectancy in Scottish shipyards? To answer some pointless, silly argument on a cycling forum

Please don't? Please. I'm imploring you. For your own sake. Please don't. Go to the pub instead.

Actually binners is right,and we are way off the original thread,I'm out.