Yep, those too I'm afraid TJ.
But but but but but...........
It's for your own good TJ... Nanny knows best.
Claptrap? Twaddle? Bunkum? Tripe? Baloney? Tosh?
TandemJeremy - Member
Claptrap? Twaddle? Bunkum? Tripe? Baloney? Tosh?
Don't be so hard on yourself, TJ, sometimes you write some worthwhile stuff.
You walked into that one TJ 😀
Faslane = Fort Sumpter 😀
TJ; Been in God's country since 1970,could you please use
[i]Baws,Keich,pish,haver,blawearie,[/i]
Duckman - will do
Look TJ the basic flaw in your many flawed argument is this:
The excess you may or may not achieve from oil extraction facilities that may or may not be yours will be spent funding the deficit on everything else.
It's a futile, pointless, meaningless and self defeating dream. Get over it.
Scotland will need a radical overhaul in the event of independence. Probably a good thing, but don't imagine for a second that you'll be well off.
Yossarain - actually the [b]surplus[/b] would be used to invest in infrastructure and jobs. The oil wealth would give the time and money to do this. Scotland would need a restructured economy - an independent Scotland would find this easier.
One of the huge economic mistakes over the last few decades is the wasting of the oil money on paying for the Thatcher "economic miracle" ie on benefits and tax cuts.
compare that to Norway who have a national fund from oil money surplus that ensures they will remain rich. Scotland could do the same.
Just out of interest what are all these jobs going to be?
You cannot compare the Norwegian model to Scotland. They are not the same. Just google it.
You're living in a dreamworld TJ, oil is not the saviour of Scotland and never will be.
Yossarian - Of course it can be, If an independent Scotland took the same amount of taxes off the oil as the UK does it would be a significant sum more in the economy than Scotland has now. This creates a surplus to be used for investment around 5 - 10% of GDP extra in the economy.
Blimey Charlie O'Reilley; have you lot not seen the weather out there??? Oh, maybe it's raining in Scotland or something probbly...
compare that to Norway
..which is a massive country by comparison to Scotland, has far, far greater resources and an even smaller population. And very high taxation.
Its naive to think that England has any claim on the oil at all.
Was it only Scots who first explored and drilled for oil, was it? No, it was a British effort, alongside the Norwegians. So I'm imagining quite a chunk of tax revenue was spent on the exploration and that. And seing as how Scotland wasn't generating a lot of tax revenue at that point, I'd say thet the rest of the UK does indeed have a good claim to the oil revenue. What about Wales? They'd be absolutely stuffed without money from the UK coffers. So, we just cut Wales off cos it's 'uneconomic', and let them all starve?
And why d'you think Thatchler made so much fuss over the Falklands. Ooh look, vast untapped oil reserves in the South Atlantic. You don't want to benefit from any of that then? Fine.
It's a very selfish and insular attitude you have TJ. You bang on about Scotland being ruled from Westminster etc, and not liking the Tories, but the majority of Londoners don't vote Tory either and we have to put up with the buggers. And there's 7 million of us, so more voices.
And when the oil runs out, what would you do then? Eh? You haven't thought about that, have you?
So where's yer conclusive proof that Scotland will be better off as an independent nation then? Hmm?
So I'm imagining quite a chunk of tax revenue was spent on the exploration and that
Well your imagination is wrong
the comparision to Norway is actually quite close. Apart from Norway got rid of its colonial masters a while ago
So where's yer conclusive proof that Scotland will be better off as an independent nation then? Hmm?
I can't be bothered to read all of that ^^ so someone may alread have said this, but TJ seems to have forgotten about the oil and gas in the southern North sea (off the coast of England)! 😆
Elfinsafety
It's a very selfish and insular attitude you have TJ. You bang on about Scotland being ruled from Westminster etc, and not liking the Tories, but the majority of Londoners don't vote Tory either and we have to put up with the buggers. And there's 7 million of us, so more voices.
Leave it Elf, it's not worth it 😉
The entire population of Scvotland wouldn't even fill all the sports grounds & music venues in London 😆
Let the provincials do what they like , no-ones going to notice anyway 8)
im not sure breaking up the union would be a good idea
are we sure the scots wouldnt turn it into a sectarian bloodbath
what with all the niel lennon bombs
and it didnt work out too well for india and a truckload of other ex colonial countries
JEngledow
90% of the oil is in Scottish waters, 90% of the gas in English waters
TJ seems to have forgotten about the oil and gas in the southern North sea (off the coast of England)
dunno about the fossil fuels, but there's plenty of wind and hot air up there 😆
Well your imagination is wrong
Really? Enlighten me then...
So, Scotland found and financed all the exploration itself, did it?
the comparision to Norway is actually quite close
Nowhere near close mate. Norwegian oil and gas production is mainly state-owned. So, you'd have to buy yer oil fields and platforms off the companies that currently own them, if you wanted a nationalised industry. How you going to do that? Plus, taxation in Norway is massive. Everything is taxed, including food.
Seriously, stop wibbling on with this pipe dream, cos it ain't gonna happen. Just get on with being British, like the rest of us. Why is that so bad?
Just get on with being British, like the rest of us. Why is that so bad?
Little Scotlanders innit 😆
..which is a massive country by comparison to Scotland, has far, far greater resources and an even smaller population. And very high taxation.
Absolutely
TJ - I used to work for a Norwegian oil company, based mainly in Aberdeen. I've heard this conversation a thousand times over dinner with people who ACTUALLY know how it works. Norway and Scotland are utterly different and even the Norwegians are looking to diversify now, despite have far greater reserves of both oil and gas AND already having a well established renewable energy grid.
Elf - the oil companies paid for the exploration. No state funding.
I dislike the insular parochial and xenophobic view that comes from England. I want a more positive and outward looking engagement with the rest of the world and I believe that even apart from the oil and independent Scotland would be a significantly better place to live.
However I don't feel particularly strongly about it.
Yossarian - they are ahead of Scotland yes - but its something to aspire to - without the dead hand of Westminster Scotland would make better progress as can be seen from renewables
I'd like to know why you think the two countries are utterly different - they are actually very similar
.
However I don't feel particularly strongly about it.
Could have fooled most people on here!
Just noticed the tag 'plastic mac' 😀 I prefer Silicone Scot, mind...
Are you admitting you are wrong about oil then TJ. Sounds like it 😉
If I was Scottish I'd want to be independent 1000%
Money wouldn't really come into it, especially not money derived from fossil fuels.
Elf - the oil companies paid for the exploration. No state funding.
Ok so you're gonna pay them for their efforts then? And the 'value' of the oil fields? How you gonna do that?
[Paxman]Come on, answer the question![/Paxman]
I dislike the insular parochial and xenophobic view that comes from [b]Scotland[/b]. I want a more positive and outward looking engagement with the rest of the world
FTFY.
I [b]believe[/b] that even apart from the oil and independent Scotland would be a significantly better place to live.
Oh, so you only 'believe' this, do you? No actual proof or evidence to back this belief up?
I have no problem with belief. Just don't ask me to share it with you if I don't want to.
Clubber - thats 'cos on subjects like this people do not listen. I put forward what the case is as a idea to debate and so folk like Elf who don't understand might gain some understanding.
Elf - stop and think. At teh moment the tax is paid to Westminster - post independence to holyrood -= same amount of money no differnce to the oil companies
so folk like Elf who don't understand might gain some understanding.
Patronising throbber. Just cos I respond in an obtuse and deliberately provocative manner don't mean I don't 'understand'....
You talk about 'understanding', yet for example; any time there's mention of London on here, you display a woeful level of ignorance and bigotry. The fact that you write such things as 'all taxation' goes to Westminster' just compounds this.
I could sit here all day arguing with you. But, there's work to be done, and it's as hot as a bastard out there, nudging 80ºF.
Europe would happily split up into 3 times the number of independent states it is now with power devolving down to this level and up to EU level leaving the current national governments redundant
I like the application of what has obviously worked soooooo well in the NHS on an international scale. Multiples of duplicate petty administration systems all being paid for multiples of times, yet achieving nothing more than giving smaller and smaller groups something to squabble over.
Have the vote - you might see common sense shine through - like when there was a referendum for a 'Northern' government - and it was voted out as a daft idea.
Differences between Norway and Scotland?
Check out just about every single social indicator available. Yes Norway has funded a large proportion of it's improvements from oil extraction but this began 40, yes 40!!! years ago.
That ship has sailed TJ and it's not coming back.
norway is very very different from scotland
id like to see the scottish government that announced that theyd be taxing beer 10 quid a pint or that you could only by spirits from a state run off license (not on sundays) and it would be 30 quid for a cheap bottle of vodka!
konabunny - MemberThe oil question is actually a bit of a sideshow in any case. If an independent Scotland were reliant on a relatively small amount of non-renewable natural resources income, it would not be viable.
I'm not sure what you call "a relatively small amount" but the UK is self sufficient in both gas and oil, and has been for over 30 years now, most of it from the North Sea.
Reserves [i]are[/i] drying up and in approx 5 years the UK will cease to be self sufficient in oil, although gas will continue for much longer. The reserves far exceed what Scotland's tiny population needs however.
Elf - stop and think
Do what?? 😯
What is this 'stopping and thinking' of which you speak?
I believe it to be the work of Satan. 😐
Sweet Jesus! Is this still going on? Can't everyone agree to disagree and have a big group hug? Eh?
Its all fairly good natured Binners - Me I'm laughing at the displays of parochial ignorance
How about independence for yorkshire?
You know my feelings on this whole independence thing TJ. I want nothing short of full independence for the South East of England*. I reckon the rest of us would bump along quite nicely 🙂
*this could involve physically separating it from the rest of the mainland and towing it out to sea a bit
Mmmmmmmm we have the makings of a plan.
Cut along the line from teh wash to the bristol channel? Or to the solent so as not to lose the quantocks and cornwall and devon
TandemJeremy - Member
Clubber - thats 'cos on subjects like this people do not listen. I put forward what the case is as a idea to debate and so folk like Elf who don't understand might gain some understanding.
I can never quite decide whether you keep saying this sort of thing just to wind people up or if you really believe it. I kind of credit you with enough intelligence and just about enough social awareness for it to be the former but the longer it goes on, the more I'm starting to think that it might actually be the latter.
And where would you draw the border ? There is an argument for chopping Glasgow off and sailing it down to Liverpool first, would fit better there. Borders aren't just geographical, they can be thematic, cultural and spiritual, you know.
Or we could just round up all the Scottish Separatists and give them a piece of this:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-granted-homeland-in-wes,305/
Clubber - how often do you see anyone actually pay any attention to what the other side of the argument says? - and the number of times I am told I have said something that I have not said shows how little people actually listen. You have done it on this thread yourself by assuming with no evidence that I am rabidly in favour of independence. People make massive assumptions based on their own prejudices all the time which is why quite honestly I should keep away from this sort of thread.