For clarity, both Starmer and Yvette Cooper have said that the police DO HAVE SUFFICIENT RESOURCES
AIUI, the police (not sure if that is operational commanders or PCCs) were asked if they needed help and they said they had the resources needed. I don't think they are saying this without input.
If you’ve been to either of those places, you’ll know the answer.
Wow!
I think (hope) that the poster means that those places have already been deemed acceptable losses or not important by successive governments, as can probably be seen by the state of their public services, healthcare, high street etc
Didn’t look like it in Rotheram and Middlesbrough. Or are they acceptable ‘losses’ to protect more important places?
I covered this in a post earlier, but to make it absolutely clear, if the officers have not yet been told to rush in and arrest the people smashing the window then they will stay put. In a volatile situation, officers acting impulsively or individually are a far greater risk than someone entering a hotel.
Someone somewhere will have a reason why those officers didn't rush in. You and I don't.
As for some places being more "important than others" we need to stand back another step and think the following. Yes, it's absolutely awful that the Holiday Inn and its occupants were targeted, and there is no place on our streets for thuggery......... but this is potentially only the build-up to what could be far more impactful on all of our lives. The Far Right have stated they want a full-on Race War. So far there has been some very considered statements made by Islamic leaders and community representatives. The very, very real danger lies in towns and cities with a much larger muslim population. I tried to allude to it above, but there is a very real potential that the fear and feeling of vulnerability will lead actors within those communities to take matters into their own hands. I can absolutely guarantee that the male muslim population of Leicester, Birmingham, Bradford, Dewsbury, Oldham, Luton and others will already be considering whether they too need to mobilise. This of course is what the likes of Farage, Robinson et al want. So far they've got the "normal people" out of Wetherspoons, and most of those will go home if the real trouble starts, but the hard-core EDL, Britain First and others from the footy firms are just waiting for the real thing to start.
The groundswell of public support for Powell was immense following his speech – and it took significant political bravery to ram through the Race Relations Bill in the aftermath, bravery which would most likely not materialise these days.
The Race Relations Act was actually 3 years before Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech.
But, it is clear that Farage sees himself as a Powell-like figure, and is seeking the opportunity to deliver his own remix of the Rivers of Blood speech if Parliament is recalled.
The Rivers of Blood speech wasn't made in Parliament and it had the complete and total opposite effect of what Enoch Powell had hoped for. Enoch Powell had been an extremely senior politician with huge ambitions, he had wanted to be the last Viceroy of India, and certainly UK Prime Minister.
By 1968 he saw his political career in decline, his Rivers of Blood speech was a desperate attempt to revive it. As far as I am aware Enoch Powell had no previous record of high profile racist comments, in fact I believe that he was considered a rather compassionate Tory, which is one of the reasons that the speech caused such a stir.
But for whatever reasons Enoch Powell decided that a crass appeal to bigotry and idiotic racism would revive his flagging political career. It had the complete opposite effect and basically killed it off. He was instantly sacked from the Shadow Cabinet and from then on his political career went into a death spin as he became evermore irrelevant. He spent his final political days a bitter old man in the company of his fellow Protestant bigots in the Ulster unionists.
More race relations legislation followed Enoch Powell's political decline.
If Farage wants to follow his footsteps I would welcome it.
Clearly dazh has more knowledge of the intelligence being gathered by the Police than we do. And as it stands, yes we have had enough resources. They might not have done what he wants them to have done, but until he shares his qualifications in public disorder control, I'm not seeing reason to suggest that those who do know have got it wrong.
I agree with Ernie - again, dammit - that we've got very negative about this. While this is the worst trouble we've seen in the UK for 10 years, it's relatively small and relatively contained. Have a look at what Bangladesh is going through right now.
But I disagree with nickc about not engaging with these idiots. We have to. We have to engage, and challenge, and put out the alternative viewpoints and options and try and take ack control of the narrative. Because if we let it go unchallenged, it will spread. And grow. For evil to prosper, all it takes is for good people to do nothing.
The Far Right have stated they want a full-on Race War. So far there has been some very considered statements made by Islamic leaders and community representatives. The very, very real danger lies in towns and cities with a much larger muslim population. I tried to allude to it above, but there is a very real potential that the fear and feeling of vulnerability will lead actors within those communities to take matters into their own hands
This is the bigger picture. It's the war we cannot afford to lose. If settled minority communities feel so threatened that they try and take action themselves, we are in real serious trouble.
Can you imagine what would happen if - god forbid - the first death in any troubles was some stupid white kid fired up by EDL rhetoric being taken out by some terrified kid of Asian heritage? They'd make a martyr of him.
Is it such a vote loser for a politician to come out and say it’s not uncontrolled immigration, it’s actually controlled via work and study visas? Is it election suicide to say we need these people to fill jobs that we don’t have enough skilled workers for? Why doesn’t someone point out the obvious that we stopped being allowed to let European people in for work with no issues, so we have to go further afield to bring people in?
A rare lesser spotted sensible post. Reason it can’t work is that it gets twisted on social and traditional media.
Social Media is like advertising in that everyone thinks they are immune. This place could take a lesson from that.
I think (hope) that the poster means that those places have already been deemed acceptable losses or not important by successive governments, as can probably be seen by the state of their public services, healthcare, high street etc
Yes. The likes of Cameron, Johnson and Sunak only gave a shit about these places when it suited them - election time. They then laughed in their faces whilst promising to 'level up'. There's a reason why unprocessed asylum seekers aren't housed in Sevenoaks.
Can I remind those who think politicians publicly challenging Nigel Farage is a mistake that Farage is actually an intellectual pygmy?
Any half decent politician can make him look an idiot, it's really not hard. I gave the example of Leanne Wood earlier.
Obviously it won't change the minds of halfwits who use the back of their heads and testicles to stop flying bricks but most probably don't vote anyway.
There will be many more arrests made.
But that's not good enough. Stand by and watch people potentially burn down an occupied hotel, but it's ok because after dozens of people are killed we'll arrest anyone stupid enough to not wear a face mask while starting a fire? My point is that in London it's unlikely to have got anywhere near that far as the rioters would have been met by enough trained and equipped officers to stand up to them. They'd have been hemmed in somewhere relatively harmless and arrested. 1 person was arrested at the Rotherham hotel FFS, what if that fire had caught hold and people were trapped inside?
The comparison to BLM/Palestine protests is an interesting one as they were mostly peaceful, and also much larger. The most trouble related to them AFAIK is when the far right started spreading rumours on social media (sounds familiar) that Hamas were going to turn up and deface the cenotaph or a statue of Winston Churchill. And what happened? The 'left' didn't do anything of the sort, they had their march calling for a ceasefire, while the 'right' turned up, got pissed/coked up and fought the police and each other.
The Race Relations Act was actually 3 years before Enoch Powell’s Rivers of Blood speech.
This was a the RRA 1968, strengthening the one you mention.
The rest of your post makes my point. Yes, Powell suffered politically in the wake of his speech, perhaps Farage would as well, but, nearly seven decades on, @drac is scraping 'Enoch was right' stickers off outside the former home of an Indian family.
The point is not about Powell's downfall, it is about the totemic and lasting effects of certain moments in political history and how we should be cautious about providing people like Farage the opportunity to deliver them.
engaging with these idiots. We have to
Agreed. Retrospect on brexit, calling people idiots, disregarding their concerns and opinions, mocking them online and the media, look where it got us.
This is the bigger picture. It’s the war we cannot afford to lose.
Important point. Once conflict is sparked it'd be self sustaining. I guess the impression of two tier policing is acceptable for the greater good.
Just catching up on this thread. With the court appearance a few pages back where a bloke denied having taken part in a riot (but pleaded guilty, weirdly) is it true that under riot law, attendance is illegal? Doesn't matter if you are throwing fenceposts at police, or standing there with your mates filming it on your phone?
It's going to be thousands.
Someone somewhere will have a reason why those officers didn’t rush in. You and I don’t.
I never suggested they should 'rush in'. All I'm talking about is numbers and the ability to prevent people's homes and cars being trashed.
They might not have done what he wants them to have done
What did I want them to do that is so controversial? Stopping them torching cars or breaking living room windows?
Anyway, I'll leave it as once again it's getting personal. I don't think it's out of order to ask some questions about operational stuff like this. All I'm talking about is the protection of people living in these areas. I can't imagine how terrifying it must have been to have a mob like that in middlesbrough randomly smashing up homes and cars without some attempt by the police to stop them.
but, nearly seven decades on, @drac is scraping ‘Enoch was right’ stickers off
Means absolutely nothing. Apart from saying that there are some racists in our society.
When I was very young I remember seeing Oswald "Mosley was right" stickers on lampposts (Oswald Mosley was still alive) Same shit, different racist.
No doubt in the decades to come there will be "Farage was right" stickers. In any society we will have murderers, sex offenders, racists, and all manner of undesirable elements. You cannot guarantee a society where racist stickers do not exist.
Anyway, the footy season starts next week.Should distract most of them.
I never suggested they should ‘rush in’. All I’m talking about is numbers and the ability to prevent people’s homes and cars being trashed.
Ignoring that you said they were standing by and watching it happen, consider this: Middlesborough is covered by Cleveland Police, with a total of 1400 police officers. Of those, only a small fraction can be actively deployed to disorder. Remember that there was also disorder in Hartlepool shortly before Middlesborough kicked off, and so mutual aid is now the only option to even start to contain the disorder.
Your nearest neighbours are North Yorkshire, Cumbria and Northumbria Police. Cumbria are coming from Penrith 75 miles away, so a two hour drive in a Sprinter once you've gathered in all the team they can spare from across their county, so probably four or five hours before they rock up.
North Yorkshire have 1665 sworn officers and the biggest territorial area in the country. They're calling in the team from Skipton who'll take a couple of hours to get to Northallerton but then it's less than an hour's drive to Middlesborough.
Northumbria are your best bet. They've got 3,155 cops in total so they'll be able to spare you a serial if not a full support Unit. They'll gather at Ponteland and it'll only take an hour to get them all kitted up, then it's just over an hour down the A1.
@alpin I'd be mindful that at least one of those clips you posted (the one with the "stabbing") has already been debunked. Actors and instigator on all sides.
Elon Musk is reportedly claiming civil war is inevitable in the UK. Is that a prediction or a threat?
Elon Musk is reportedly claiming civil war is inevitable in the UK. Is that a prediction or a threat?
C) A ketamine induced dream from the fascist manchild.
If Northumbria is anything like here, I doubt they will be able to spare a single officer.Many areas of this country are now Mad Max territory. Have been for years.
Elon Musk is reportedly claiming civil war is inevitable in the UK. Is that a prediction or a threat?
Go me that just sounds like he’s spouting off, but if there were a civil war the uk, or England, who would arm the various group? It’s not like they can walk into JD Sports and buy a rifle.
Most civil wars have foreign interference or are proxy wars. Do the Russian or Chinese or Iranian state security services standing by to arm various factions?
Garden, kitchen, and construction tools would be sufficient.
But I'm sure state actors would jump at the chance to supply all sides.
Garden, kitchen, and construction tools would be sufficient.
against the army?
It is what the army use too isn't it as I have heard they have had budgets cut.
James O’Brien comes back from holiday and has a 20 min rant against Farage/braverman/the daily mail/the spectator/tory party etc….etc….
If you haven't been firmly raked you haven't lived.
Guns and hoes.
If Northumbria is anything like here, I doubt they will be able to spare a single officer.
Hardly enough on duty to basic policing and are stretched over a vast area.
Means absolutely nothing. Apart from saying that there are some racists in our society.
It means in the small town I live on someone has picked a target, I’ve been out and about since and not seen another one in any place.
When I was very young I remember seeing Oswald “Mosley was right” stickers on lampposts (Oswald Mosley was still alive) Same shit, different racist.
Stickers in that era?
Because if we let it go unchallenged, it will spread. And grow. For evil to prosper, all it takes is for good people to do nothing.
Certainly not helping by giving them a mainstream platform in the way of 'news' channels, tv programs, a seat on televised debate and of course the daily mail, who of all the tabloid press are responsible for racist rhetoric
The likes of GB 'news' and talk tv need shutting down. Editors of the tabloid press held criminally to account.
.
Kick them to the sideline, and go after the instigators on line. Everything but everything goes through gchq, so tracking them down is not going to be that difficult. BIG sentences so that when they eventually get out, they wont dare act in that manner again
against the army?
Against rival groups of citizens.
Elon Musk is reportedly claiming civil war is inevitable in the UK
And he's known for having a good view of future trends isn't he, things like SM platform values..
Is that a prediction or a threat?
Probably just a small score for Polestar over Tesla in future EV sales.
Can’t they throw up some drones, start capturing the faces of the rioters and have them scrolling on the news- wanted for being far right (like Hitler(for those that didn’t know)) hooligans etc. Get the EDL prescribed and terror laws come into play- get them locked up on the Bibby Stockholm.
Is it such a vote loser for a politician to come out and say it’s not uncontrolled immigration, it’s actually controlled via work and study visas? Is it election suicide to say we need these people to fill jobs that we don’t have enough skilled workers for? Why doesn’t someone point out the obvious that we stopped being allowed to let European people in for work with no issues, so we have to go further afield to bring people in?
A rare lesser spotted sensible post. Reason it can’t work is that it gets twisted on social and traditional media.
I think it can work. It's true after all. wouldn't be suprised to hear it from Labour tbh, they seem like straight-talking adults.
And you only need to end up in A&E briefly to have a moment of enlightenment or at least realisation about immigration (if you hadn't already got there). I suppose the committed knucklehead will think they've 'come over ere an taken are jobs' but a small number of people are just a lost cause.
It means in the small town I live on someone has picked a target, I’ve been out and about since and not seen another one in any place.
Yeah someone probably did.
Hearing about the punk related incident in Blackpool made me think that perhaps the time has come for someone to revive Rock Against Racism. It was a very powerful tool in isolating racism among youth.
No doubt many who attended the concerts simply went for the music but the punk-reggae coalition provided a platform to get the message across, and whilst on stage the artists were able to make their anti-racist and anti-homophobic cases.
Unfortunately this has kicked off too late for a summer of anti-racist concerts this year.
Hopefully Stand Up To Racism will morph into an effective tool as the Anti-Nazi League was.
I've just realised that I probably have somewhere my original Anti-Nazi League tee shirt! Maybe time to wear it on the next pro Palestine demo 🙂
Protests happening in Liverpool this afternoon. My office is directly opposite the Passport and Imigration office. Small crowd and lot of police.
Was sat outside the office with a colleague (very nice lad of African heritage) - older couple sat opposite us staring at him. He went inside and they came to stare at me, very strange. Didn’t speak to me, just stood close by watching me. I’ve just took the young lad and another colleague home. Our office closed at 2pm.
Very disappointed tbh. This city is built on immigration and is extremely multicultural.
Get the EDL prescribed
Take 2 scum, twice per day.
Might leave a Nazi taste in your mouth though.
Our Plymouth and Bradford offices closed early today ahead of planned protests. Sad day but safety first.
Yes there is a warning of far right protests in Bradford and Huddersfield tonight, Community leaders are discouraging counter demonstrations.
Get the EDL prescribed and terror laws come into play- get them locked up on the Bibby Stockholm.
I thought this, but EDL apparently hasn't existed formally for a few years now, presumably to get around the proscribing issue, although I'm sure all the same networks are active.
Ringleaders can still get done under the terrorism act though.
You’re right. Some 1375 sworn officers in total.
