[Closed] At what point......

Man-love thursday is quite a well known phrase now.

If you bring people up to believe that the sexes are different, and that that difference puts the majority of power and control in the hands of one sex, then it is far easier for these attitudes and ultimately this behaviour to continue.

How many top companies have a female CEO? How many government ministers are women? Judges? People in "our" society are being brought up believing that the sexes are different - just look at how toys are marketed, for a start.

patriotpro - Member

But they're doing it? And these are only the cases that come out

A microscopically small minority are doing it, in defiance of their religion. And they're certainly not the only cases of women being taken and abused.

I don't think there's anything needs adding to what Rusty's just put.

Pretty much sums it up really

Ben, I've changed 'different' to 'unequal' in my original post.
And I was referring to the whole of 'our' society in that paragraph.

Of course old fashioned sexism still remains - but I think it's prevalent, accepted and even condoned in certain sections of society for more than others, as I've confirmed later in the post.

Northwind - Member

patriotpro - Member

But they're doing it? And these are only the cases that come out

A microscopically small minority are doing it, in defiance of their religion. And they're certainly not the only cases of women being taken and abused.

I'll agree to disagree on that point.

What experience do you have of Muslims? childhood, adulthood, school, work?

So what explains how, with two very similar cases, one gets next to no coverage whereas the other gets national coverage and lots of discussion about the culture the perpetrators came from?

Women, eh? Tch!

Can't live with 'em...

Pass the beer nuts.

bencooper - Member

So what explains how, with two very similar cases, one gets next to no coverage whereas the other gets national coverage and lots of discussion about the culture the perpetrators came from?

Racism, sadly, and the inherent desire of humanity to pass the blame onto those it sees as different.

However, that doesn't excuse us from ignoring the fact that certain parts of society are currently more sexist and intolerant than others.

And no, I'm not talking exclusively about Islam, fundamentalists of all religions appear to use adherance to 'sacred texts' to perpetuate and enshrine inequality, as the Church of England have admirably demonstrated recently.

Our society doesn't treat women as second-class citizens?

I think Nicole Cooke's speech puts paid to that idea, at least in the world of cycling.

I assume you are joking vis-a-vis her complaints about team manager bullies and not being paid. Yes you are.

Our society, and all its strata and niches, is changing to equalise the status of women. But it's a long haul. People like your teacher wife have the biggest impact.

Our society, and all its strata and niches, is changing to equalise the status of women.

As is much of Islam. Generally in the countries we don't approve of.

People like your teacher wife have the biggest impact.

I'm not married 😉

CBA

patriotpro - Member

I'll agree to disagree on that point.

Ah, so it's[i] not[/i] a tiny minority of british muslims that are abducting and raping women? There's at least 2.7 million of them, what proportion are rapists? 10%

Unless it's the point that it's not only muslims that are rapists that you disagree with, tbh that's no dafter.

So what about the Derby case? Why didn't that get more media attention?

Do you have a link to the Derby case?

This is the only one I can find - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-11799797 ]is this it?[/url]

Agent Smith: Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I... hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive, isn't it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You're going to tell me, or you're going to die.

Sums me up to a tee 8)

I would like to reply but I would get into trouble.

bencooper - Member

[b]Our society, and all its strata and niches, is changing to equalise the status of women[/b].

As is much of Islam. Generally in the countries we don't approve of.

But many, many countries, of all religions and none are becoming less tolerant toward women. Abortion rights are a big issue here and in the States for example.
Israel is becoming much more fundamentalist too.

religion is poppycock. people have different coloured skin. some people do bad things, some people do good things. which kind of person are you? the end.

Your solution to the problem? Burry under the carpet, write it off as "life's a bitch" type thing?

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/race_and_sex_offences-27153

Savages, they should have their balls cut off.

Fail to see how such a culture can be allowed to continue in the UK without being forced to change. Sadly to even suggest that such a culture is imoral in its treatment of its women labels you as a racist, and so legitamises this I'll treatment.

Fail to see how such a culture can be allowed to continue in the UK without being forced to change.

nwilko - Member
Sadly to even suggest that such a culture is imoral in its treatment of its women labels you as a racist,

No it doesn't.
And as long as you keep repeating it then people will keep believing it.

Standing up for equality is not racism.

Fantastic amount of racist bigotry on this thread. 😕

uselesshippy - Member

Fantastic amount of racist bigotry on this thread.

Where?

Edited - sadly, you're right.
Not a fantastic amount, but some.
Jesus, I despair sometimes.

Indeed rusty its the racists that stifle debate [ not PC gone mad]as decent folk who disagree [ like you and binners] do not want to be lumped in with that shower so they stay quiet.

Al for debate but not or simplistic slagging of one culture or simply suggesting ours is far superior - A german fella thought like this iirc.

Some folk here should read up on anthropology tbh

I'd suggest its a lot healthier than regarding women as inherently second class citizens who are expected to be subservient at all times, yes.

Except its not that just how the Daily Mail spin it so we are scared

Patriarchail society re the religion for sure but subservient at all times [ you have a fair few issues where you get all Daily Mail swivelled eye loon binners] - None of my Muslim mates wife are even close to that description - its obvious who wears the trousers - more so than in what you lot would no doubt call a "western" style relationships

But they're doing it? And these are only the cases that come out, not to mention those that are kept quiet for fear of being branded racist.

So there's that.

Some religious & cultural practices are just not compatable with our form of western democracy and it is to the detriment of us all if we don't admit that.

I'm a romantic old lefty, but see nothing racist about wanting the opportunities and benefits of a fair and democratic society to be available to everyone, regardless of gender or background.

They treat omen differently from us - culturally we always think our way is better - its what they think as well about our ways

I'll agree to disagree on that point

thankfully there are records kept on this for you to google and read and digest and think on - Its ridiculous to think that the abuse of folk is a part of Islamic culture - it like thinking all catholic's molest kids because a small minority of priests did - in fact given the church turning a blind eye you could make a better argument for that actually and the religion condoning it

As i said before asians tend to work in gangs for some reason and white folk alone

Its not more prevalent in one group than the other it just allows us to have an issue with which to let some latent racism run free

FWIW my Muslim mates think one of two things
1. they say these folk come from chavistan and they never attend the mosque - ie they are from villages and hey are a bit thick aand inbred
2. they have been corrupted by western attitudes towards free sex rather than adhering to Islamic values

Junkyard - Member
Dont disagree but i refuse to be drawn in to replacing communists with Muslims as a threat to our very way of life - its a right wing trick of newspeak to keep us all scared and justify their wars and arms spending.

They treat omen differently from us - culturally we always think our way is better - its what they think as well about our ways

Yep, but sometimes, just sometimes, we're right.
People must be free to make their own 'mistakes'.
Whether that's choosing to drink too much, choosing to marry an idiot, choosing to abandon your religion or choosing not to look after your elderley relatives.

Female emancipation was a long and difficult struggle - the freedom for women to determine the course of their own lives has only happened very recently in our country in the modern era.
Many other cultures, including those where many have emigrated to Britain within the last four or five generations, haven't got there yet.

We cannot allow freedom to be sacrificed because of cultural sensitivity.

It would be utterly hypocritical for us to demand freedom and equality for one section of society yet allow it to be compromised to the detriment of others.

FWIW my Muslim mates think one of two things
1. they say these folk come from chavistan and they never attend the mosque - ie they are from villages and hey are a bit thick aand inbred
2. they have been corrupted by western attitudes towards free sex rather than adhering to Islamic values

Well, yes.

1. When I go a footy match and there's a load of racist chanting, I blame it on the thickos too. Even if it's a bit more complicated than that.

2. The main western attitude towards sex, as far as I can tell, is that sex must be consensual - you have the right to say no, just as you have the right to say yes.
Exposure to too much porn and the Hollywood view of female subservience does not justify or excuse rape.
Blaming 'western attitudes towards sex' because you can't keep your dick in your pants is a pathetic cop out.

Wjilst you raise some valid arguments and some good point re

Female emancipation was a long and difficult struggle

I have only one word for you

THATCHER

Its not all been good news 😉

Its interestng i get all the stuff from the press but i just dont see it in my Muslim mates. I doubt many folk who air views actually hang out with Muslims on a regular basis tbh and know from actual experience.
FWIW many of the blokes are frankly embarrassed their wifes wear the Burkha because of what folk think of them and the looks they get when they go out in public.
One mates wife only does it when she is really pissed of with him as punishment

I dont disagree that the Islamic view of women is often at odds with our view = is the church of Englands any better as they cant be bishops - but i dont think it is responsible for raping and grooming women.

Little of the "debate" is based on anything anyone actually experiences rather it is based on snippets from politically motivated media hence we hear loads when its Muslims and far less when it not. Also Saville was a monster but its not cultural etc

Blaming 'western attitudes towards sex' because you can't keep your dick in your pants is a pathetic cop out.

Blaming 'Islamic attitudes towards sex and women' because you can't keep your dick in your pants is a pathetic cop out.

Yeah, yeah JY... I rely on the daily mail for all my info. As opposed to what I see around me on a daily basis.

It's the refusal of many on the left, and subsequently incredibly condescending attitude, to even engage with the issue, that means that nothing changes.

Suggesting that the attitude of many Muslim men towards women is unhealthy, to say the least, is not racism! It's an honest observation! And that a level of equality is what is expected in a democratic society. thats ok if you can speculatively quote the Koran? and not something to be excused on religious grounds! if people want to ignore the elephant in the room, then fine, but please don't dress up the as racial intolerance that nobody should object too! That's just patronising nonsense! And one of the many reasons why the left continues to lose credibility! Which ****ing annoys me! Choose your battles!

Any Muslim families that I've ever been close to have been matriarchal in nature, if not openly in public, then at least behind closed doors..

But it's not convenient for us to think that way, sexism is an ace card to play in the West's systematic demonisation of Islam..

And where would we be if we stopped doing that...?

If the Taliban had their way then women wouldn't be allowed an education among many other limitations they impose on women, if a married Muslim women gets raped for instant she is punished for being unfaithful. Is that being racist point this out. To talk about people religious attitudes is not racist although a presumption that these Muslim men raped this poor 13 year old because they are Muslim could be classed as being racist.

Double post

Yunki, 95% of families I've ever met, regardless of cultural, ethnic or religious makeup have been 'matriarchal in nature'.
A man's place is in the wrong 😀

But it's not convenient for us to think that way, sexism is an ace card to play in the West's systematic demonisation of Islam..

And where would we be if we stopped doing that...?

All cultures are different. Some aspects of other cultures are better than ours, some are worse.

As a care worker, it's pretty obvious that many asian families care for their elderly relatives themselves, rather than rely on outside help.

Would it therefore be racist to say that many non-asian families prefer not to look after their elderly, but prefer to rely on others or abandon them to state care?

anyone who discriminates a person because of their skin colour, gender, race, religion, age, wealth or any thing else is living in the dark ages. where does it stop? don't like people from africa? spain? the french? londoners? the next county? the next town? next door? yourself? jesus, give us all a break

spchantler - Member

anyone who discriminates a person because of their skin colour, gender, race, religion, age, wealth or any thing else is living in the dark ages. where does it stop? don't like people from africa? spain? the french? londoners? the next county? the next town? next door? yourself? jesus, give us all a break

Just Londoners and Jesus out of that lot, but it's not a very comprehensive list is it?

What about people who don't punctuate? 😉

Would it therefore be racist to say that many non-asian families prefer not to look after their elderly, but prefer to rely on others or abandon them to state care?

Noit would be fine because it would be true

one of my mates families fell out because of who did not get the elderly mother to live with them as they all wanted to do it.

However , given the figures on offending, its not true to say that Islamic attitudes towards women contribute to rape and grooming any more than saying loaded magazine means our attitude to women leads to rape. Both cultures have individuals from it who do this but neither culture condones it or views it as anything other than a crime.

god, yes, i forgot about them. and poor orthagraphists.

This has been a bad day for the stw forum.

bearnecessities - Member

This has been a bad day for the stw forum.

Please, just please point out anything I've written or alluded to which demonstrates or indicates any form of prejudice whatsoever, or is factually incorrect.

We're trying to have a debate about a difficult and sensitive subject.

I'm not a racist, and I've met Junky and Binners on several occaisions and I'd can bloody well guarantee that they aren't either.

If you'd like to contribute and get involved, please do so - if not, fine, but justify your comments if you don't mind.

In case you missed it, my argument was that the more sexism is condoned and tolerated, the more likely the occcurance of sexual crimes against the more vulnerable sex.

Thanks.

I'm with the guy up there^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Credit to you for posting this one, not often we have been like minded but I read this story just after reading about the sentencing of another similar group and thought this isn't coincidence.

IMO it is cultural, people employed to protect vulnerable people have been weak and cowed by the usual brigade and this problem has escalated when it normally would have been stopped early.

Lots of losers, the children obviously, but also communities that are tarnished because people who would otherwise be stopped have been left to get on with this criminality and that effects the majority of law abiders.

Before moving south I lived in Tempest Road Leeds for quite a few years and was told by a long serving copper they were told to "overlook" indiscretions from certain communities in fear of reprisals and accusations.

Looks like not much has changed.

RS, that comment was not in any way aimed at you, or one individual, or any views expressed.

This has just been an argumentative, thread closing, contentious and generally unpleasant day. It started so well witth the humorous South African thread continuation, but there has been a distinct and clear vein of aggression and trolling since.

bearnecessities - Member

RS, that comment was not in any way aimed at you, or one individual, or any views expressed.

This has just been an argumentative, thread closing, contentious and generally unpleasant day. It started so wekk with the humorous South African thread continuation, but there has been a distinct and clear vein of aggression and trolling since.

Thanks for that.

Yes, it's been an odd one - too much cabin fever, I think.

I don't know what to make of the SA thread. Either a troll or someone in a very bad place. The former I suspect.
Anyway, it was getting a bit too nasty and I'm glad it was pulled.

Haven't really been involved in the other stuff, but I get the impression most of it could be solved by a crackdown on second log-ins and some manners.
There's a lot of anonymous cowards on here who just like to crap in the pool and run away.

I just do bad puns and debates.

If the Taliban had their way then women wouldn't be allowed an education among many other limitations they impose on women