[Closed] Art is it too highbrow for me ?

Yes but so what? Does the fact that Emin has a Schiele book make her a good artist? Its a lazy way of trying to say an artist is good.

No, it's just pointing out that the reason Tracey Emin does what she does is not because she isn't a technically good draughtsperson (or whatever that's called). She does what she does because she wants to, not because it's all she can do.

So the idea that art can have subtext or can be a form of self expression is "highbrow bullshit"?

Exactly that. Oh and not wishing to overly trouble you but we haven't had the cheque yet for the pickled Shark in Perspex, we've had the shark a few hours now and it's beginning to smelll, you do still want it don't you?

Oh I nearly forgot we have a set of new clothes returned from an Emporer client of ours also due to none payment , would they interest you by any chance?

graemecsl

So the idea that art can have subtext or can be a form of self expression is "highbrow bullshit"?

Exactly that.

I get the feeling you're deliberately being obtuse now for the sake of it but just in case my own knowledge is lacking, please educate me about the lack of self expression, creativity and meaning in art.

Oh and not wishing to overly trouble you but we haven't had the cheque yet for the pickled Shark in Perspex, we've had the shark a few hours now and it's beginning to smelll, you do still want it don't you?

I appreciate your tenacity flogging that joke but basically, if you could do what Damien Hirst does, you'd be Damien Hirst. Tracey Emin the same.

You are saying "don't judge me for that fact that I can't be arsed to learn about something".

No I'm not.
I'm saying why is your opinion more valid then mine?
Why are you right and I'm the stupid one?
Art is subjective. There is no right or wrong. But some people take pleasure in acting like there is, and they belittle anyone who doesn't agree with their view.

I appreciate your tenacity flogging that joke but basically, if you could do what Damien Hirst does, you'd be Damien Hirst. Tracey Emin the same.

Unquestionably good artists and what you say is true. They both understand that flogging their own personality is part of it. I will say both of their work leaves me cold, its just product mass produced in a factory by a team of people. (At least Hirst jokes on this fact in a lot of his work) TE has nothing interesting to say at all but DH is often interesting in interviews etc.

richmars

Art is subjective.

Correct.

There is no right or wrong.

Not entirely correct. Politics is subjective but broadcasters still hire political correspondents instead of some bloke from the pub. The performance of a sports team is subjective but we still deign to former athlete's to tell us how they percieved it. In other words the opinion's of people who have studied something, or are immersed in something carry more weight than a casual observer.

The concept of art being whatever you like, and everyone's opinion being equally valid is a conflation based on advice regarding what to buy and how to respond.

All I can think with Emin is are you still really in the same place emotionally as you were 25 years ago? Have you really not learned to spell? Its fake emotion by a fake artist to make money. By my terms she is a poor artist, by history/ the market of course she is a good artist.

ctk

All I can think with Emin is are you still really in the same place emotionally as you were 25 years ago?

I'd just point out that I'm not some kind of Tracey Emin fan but I would argue the validity of her choice of medium against someone who would say, that's just a bed etc.

jimjam - Member
I get the feeling you're deliberately being obtuse now for the sake of it but just in case my own knowledge is lacking, please educate me about the lack of self expression, creativity and meaning in art.

Funny, I get the feeling your trying to have a highbrow discussion about Art with someone who thinks Highbrow is bullshit. Every morning I shower, opposite the shower, is a Picasso, not an original, not one of his best, not even one I particularly like, but my daughter bought it for us as an anniversary gift, or she copied it at school, I can't remember which, but it's colour goes with the decor of the bathroom and it's feature wall, also the latest bullshit I have to look at whilst I take a dump every morning, it's currently the trend I'm told.. the feature coloured wall. Meanwhile the painting I paid 750 quid for just because i was stupidly pissed at an auction for a cause I totally forget, (except a total tosser I was with accidentally fell in the moat and broke his arm)no longer hangs where it did because it no longer goes with the decor, wrong colour, are you getting it yet? Art isn't someone's self expression, not to me, it's decoration, something to look at, it might have sentimental reasons, it might not it might provoke memories, it might not. I really wish I'd bought those marbles when I had the chance and the cash as I did in those days, but sadly not, ironically they would have gone with the current decor.

I appreciate your tenacity flogging that joke but basically, if you could do what Damien Hirst does, you'd be Damien Hirst. Tracey Emin the same.

I could probably have done what Damien Hirst does long before he was around, how about going to the beach, arranging three massive industrial heaters, stop framing them, moving them again, stop framing that, then repeating it a third time up and over the swell of the shingle using a hired crane, the title of the picture ?Heatwave, it was for an Industrial heating company called ITT Reznor we probably got paid a couple of hundred quid, the airbrush artist probably got fifty it was the seventies and obviously we're not Damien Hirst.

But whatever let's just beg to differ, nothing you say is going to change my opinion and clearly nothing I say will sway yours and as Richmars quite rightly points out, neither of our opinions is right or wrong, they are just different opinions, what is wrong and often the case, wealth and bullshit trying to sway opinion and value in the Art world that is a fact that cannot be denied.

I mentioned in [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/do-you-have-a-favourite-painting/page/5 ] this thread back in 2013 "Do you have a favourite painting?" [/url] why I like Rothko, his paintings provoke a response in myself that I often find unsettling yet at other times I find weirdly uplifting.

nothing you say is going to change my opinion

How do you know?

There's an artist who's work is regularly showing up in a Bath gallery, and given the money an, in particular space, I'd have a bunch of his sculptures, I love them to bits.
His name's Rick Kirby

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Perhaps not to everyone's taste but it is mine, the face sculptures are beautiful, and the figure in the streaming cape I could look at for hours.

Of course there's nothing saying "I don't like that", just don't expect to get a job as an art critic if that's all you have to say. And saying "I don't like that" is quite different from saying "[s]modern art is all rubbish[/s]/The Beatles/Pink Floyd/Elbow/etc/etc" which is a blanket statement you often hear from people who nickc is referencing - people wearing their ignorance as a badge of honor.

Just a different form of art, but it makes the same point...

I watched something on TV the other evening about the 25ft sculpture of an angel made completely out of 100,000 knives from a knife amnesty in this country.
It was incredibly symbolic and pretty much blew my tiny mind.
I love it that physical things like this can actually bring out such unexpected emotions in you.

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Afraid I don't understand the crap in a can thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_Shit?wprov=sfla1

It's interesting and I dont claim to understand it but highlighting the way a price can be attributed to something like gold which in many ways is only valuable because we say it is compared to shit which we do not place a value on. Now the shit is worth more than gold which becomes slightly ironic. Perhaps the art/point of the piece is looking at how people now value these cans and not the cans themselves.

One of the best ways to spend an afternoon in the Mona galleries is to find a comfortable seat and watch the reactions of people to the exhibits rather than the exhibition itself.

highlighting the way a price can be attributed to something like gold

Fool and their money, in other words.

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Yes and no and a bit in the middle. If it makes you think about it then maybe it's working.

Art isn't someone's self expression, not to me, it's decoration

Totally sympathise. Someone once bought me a copy of Shakespeare, but the damn' thng was just not heavy enough to keep the door open. I had to go and get myself a good big Game of Thrones hardback to do the job.

Somafunk posted that link from 2013, my choice then was Jackson Pollock... it still is.. but his mid career era (I do like his later stuff too)

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But I'm more a living sculpture kinda guy..
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graemecsl

Funny, I get the feeling your trying to have a highbrow discussion about Art with someone who thinks Highbrow is bullshit.

It's not even "Highbrow", it's depressingly basic. Art is the creative expression of an idea. Creative being the key word. We got into this because I challenged your assertion that photorealistic painting was the highest form or art.

Every morning I shower, opposite the shower, is a Picasso, not an original, not one of his best, not even one I particularly like, ....... but it's colour goes with the decor of the bathroom ....... Meanwhile the painting I paid 750 quid for just because i was stupidly pissed at an auction for a cause I totally forget, no longer hangs where it did because it no longer goes with the decor, wrong colour, are you getting it yet?

You've made your opinion's perfectly clear. But let's recap, since you've spread them over a fair few pages.

Photo realism to me is the highest form of human Art Technique,

slapping paint about, is the lowest,

Damien Hirst, That Tracey Emmen, frankly they offend my sensibilities

Art is fickle bullshit

subtext or self expression is highbrow bullshit

I could probably have done what Damien Hirst does long before he was around

Art isn't someone's self expression, not to me, it's decoration, something to look at.

I asked you to educate me about the absence of self expression in art but instead you've redoubled your efforts to be ignorant (it might be worth considering how closely your view of art aligns with fascists). There is subtext in most good "art" and it's there to [i]express[/i] something other than the totally literal. Someone above made reference to Pink Floyd and The Beatles but you don't even have to get as "highbrow" as The Beatles, bloody George Michael was making veiled references to his homosexuality in his pop songs. Avatar isn't just about big blue space people.

Even something as low brow as a horror film can have layers of subtext. George A Romero's films always have some form of social commentary, the most obvious and celebrated being Dawn of the Dead. Starship Troopers is another great example. The fact that you want to ignore it doesn't mean it's not real.

You can dismiss it if you want, you can regard the all visual art as wallpaper but it's your loss, to me it's akin to regarding people as meat.

Kindly explain the literal meaning of this

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or this

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or this

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...but remember, self expression is bullshit and subtext doesn't exist.

A good program on iplayer a few weeks ago [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b079ckkf/forest-field-sky-art-out-of-nature ]Here - Forest, Field, Sky : Art out of Nature[/url] including Andy Goldsworthy, James Turrell (amazing) David Nash and Charles Jencks

including Andy Goldsworthy, James Turrell (amazing) David Nash and Charles Jencks

David Nash once made me a cup of tea - another of the good guys! 🙂

His studio is astounding!

Force of Nature is a very good doc about his work - not sure if its still lurking on the iPlayer somewhere

jimjam - Member
Kindly explain the literal meaning of this
.but remember, self expression is bullshit and subtext doesn't exist.

Hmm explain a literal meaning where none exists? I mean that's going some for a philistine and a fascist don't you think?

Can't you accept that somebody can be a complete philistine, fascist <insert whatever> yet still have an appreciation of art for his/her own good reasons?

Oh and by the way I've come up with a cheaper alterative for your shark requirement, have you ever considered keeping tropical fish? Here, a nice red tail shark and it moves about...

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PS, I love those sculptures of Count Zero's by the way.

But I'm more a living sculpture kinda guy..

The Henry Moore's at the Yorkshire Sculpture Park and the Hepworth's in St Ives are wonderful to run your hands over.

including Andy Goldsworthy, James Turrell (amazing) David Nash and Charles Jencks

I absolutely [i]love[/i] Andy Goldsworthy's work, so much work goes into works that use only what is available nearby, and most are so ephemeral, existing only for hours, or days at most.
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Just using fallen leaves, ice and stones, but breathtakingly beautiful.

Photo realism to me is the highest form of human Art Technique,

It's just draughtsmanship, the visually unaware love it because it's easy to digest and the process is one they can easily comprehend. One of a honed execution with a defined goal of precision.
It's visual Coldplay for the easily pleased.