If you don’t let it be captured by Nationalists, then of all the Victory over fascism celebrations; VE day is perhaps one of the better ones.
I think this sums up my position. I'm prepared to say I'm "patriotic", I'm proud of some of the things Britain has done and achieved going back through history and in more modern times.
But I'm not blinkered about some of the shameful acts that have gone alongside that, whether committed through greed, cowardice, misplaced sense of superiority or simple ignorance of the wrong being done due to the social standards of the day.
I hate the way events like this get jumped on by flag waving neo-nationalists to try and justify some divine English right to greatness though.
I have a hard time separating patriotism and nationalism.
It all just looks like the same bullshit happy clapping, backward facing jingoism to me, with one being the meaner, nastier cousin to the other.
I'm English, but its just where I was born.
Ive met too many ****s in all of the UK nations to be proud of identifing with any of them just because they come from the same place. Its just tribalism on a grander scale.
An interesting article by Zoe Williams on patriotism and nationalism
And she’s nailed what makes me and many others feel very uncomfortable about all the Churchill/Vera Lynn flag-waving.
That it all feels like it’s being cynically contrived as part of the ongoing Brexit-related culture war, which has a lot of deeply unpleasant nationalist undertones to it.
Patriotism is the age old divider. Being from NI and growing up through our wee 'problem' has stripped me of any sense of local or national pride.
My other half is eastern European and despite the countries many flaws, she is very proud as they actually got rid of an real oppressor and build a country from the ground up. The UK would probably end up nuking itself if it had to put in that kinda hard work.
Plus, lets be frank. Like in the US, patriotism is used as a form of brain washing and public suppression. It's just like in the days when you'd be an out cast fir not going to church.
My sense of pride is with my family and friends as they're what matters. Not the white cliffs of dover or some battle that happened 400 years ago.
The current shitshow of 99 year old war veterans having to raise money for the NHS being a classic example.
A classic example of raising money for charities of the NHS not the NHS.
Having been a participant in the 2012 Olympic Opening Ceremony, to me that was peak "UK" and from then on, particularly with Brexit it's just been a rise in jingoistic, divisive nationalism dressed-up as "patriotism". I'm part Scottish, part English and a little bit Afro-Caribbean, have lived in England for over 30 years but we're in the process of selling our house and moving to Scotland. Even my wife who is 100% English wants to leave.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".
All that's been demonstrated here is that people anchor their views and values on different perceptions of society and history. be that due to their favoured source of current affairs, historical context, character, personal experience etc. Fundamentally though, you probably need a cup of tea and a moment of reflection if you're hating on Britain with other British people, via the medium of a British invention while residing in Britain. There is half a globes worth of people who would swap places with you in heartbeat, and many die trying.
Personally I don't mind the VE and it's poor relation, the VJ celebrations. If you're going to have a founding myth for the New Elizabethan era, then frankly the 2nd World War is as good as any. We came together across the world and fought and defeated fascism, as founding myths go, it's a pretty good one. Even the "marxist" revisionist historians of the 70s couldn't really do anything more than frame it as a class struggle, and still have to conclude that yeah; we did a good thing.
The objection I have is that I just wish folk would actually read some actual history of the period rather than rely on hand-me-down "Truths". Hey ho though, that seems unlikely. Like my Grandparents generation (who actually fought in it) my children aren't really that bothered by it all. Perhaps there's the actual lesson, right there.
A globes worth of people who would swap places with you in a heartbeat
And how would those people be received when they got here? Do you not get the contradiction at the heart of this?
Marking those who made the ultimate sacrifice while at the same time cutting our ties with our continental neighbours and deliberately creating a ‘hostile environment’ for immigrants and refugees? Where we deport the Windrush generation now that they’ve served their purpose?
My grandad was the son of Irish immigrants, here fleeing famine, but served as a Royal Marine Commando in Burma where he must have endured unimaginable horror. How would his parents be ‘welcomed’ now?
I think he’d be absolutely appalled at the present state of this country and the face it presents to the world with a cruel, uncaring populist administration wrapping itself in flags
Used to be, and still am for sport but these days I'm more embarrassed to be British. I hate what it's become. I hate our press. I hate our politics. We could and should be so much better and it makes me sad.
@kula72 - ah, I see you're practicing the old social engineering tricks. I work hard and contribute to this 'society' and can criticise the flaws I see.
The whole whataboutery is weak.
I know like most countries we have a lot of good and bad in the locker, and most ardent patriotic folk I meet are just bell ends.
This.
My grandfather took home shrapnel and a lifetime of undiagnosed PTSD from WW2 and D-Day. But throughout his adult life he was quite vocally un-patriotic (n some ways a Europhile)
Yet his children’s generation seem to have hijacked his contribution and woven it into something else to suit their ends. ie ‘Brexit’. Which from what I’ve witnessed is like an unthinking Nationalist/exceptionalist pseudo-religion that employs ‘patriotism’ as a recruiting agent.
As it stands Right Here Right Now, I see the ardent patriot as a blind tool in the social-engineer’s box, creating their own slit-lens mythos/worldview by rubbing up against other tools for feels over reals. In this, they do always seem to overly-regard both the box, and the hardship.
Just my experience of it. ymmv. ‘Exceptionalism’ seems to be both equally true and false at the same time. Open the box and you’ll find out why Schrödinger was simultaneously Austrian and Irish.
Wish I was as patriotic as this guy...
https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1258685970360291329?s=20
Fundamentally though, you probably need a cup of tea and a moment of reflection if you’re hating on Britain with other British people, via the medium of a British invention while residing in Britain. There is half a globes worth of people who would swap places with you in heartbeat, and many die trying.
Fundamentally though.... that's an irrelevant non-sequitur and thus, in the context of this discussion, bollocks.
There is half a globes worth of people who would swap places with you in heartbeat, and many die trying.
yet because thier understating of Britishness is our kindness to give away our tax deduction to them as a a free handout while out medical citizen colleagues suffer with inadequate supplies during a national crisis? Give over, of course they would.
This thread has become depressing c/w insults and multiple examples of attempted points scoring.
Why the bile? It's unnecessary and inappropriate.
As for me, it's a day of quiet and personal reflection.
A huge number of very good people gave their lives to defeat what was seen as a great evil and to remove a threat to our future safety.
I doubt they would be impressed by petty squabbling.
What people are pointing out is that their sacrifice has been hijacked by tinpot little fascists like Farage, who are presently using it to pursue an agenda that is the polar opposite of what those people fought for.
They also fought for the right for people to point uncomfortable facts like that out without having supposed patriotism, or lack of it, used as a stick to best them with and shut down the alternative point of view
A huge number of very good people gave their lives to defeat what was seen as a great evil and to remove a threat to our future safety.
I doubt they would be impressed by petty squabbling.
Sure, and lest we forget that is what Remembrance Day is, and should be for.
The basic argument this is turned to is, should we be returning to, repeating and celebrating the quintessential definition of Britishness as it was in the late 1940's today? It was built on colonialism, monarchism, power and arrogance, many traits we modern brits are continually accused and reminded of despite the fact that although The Establishment try to pretend we remain to be perceived that way, we are currently actually perceived as the bumbling failure of the very European culture we helped to shape.
As above, I love the great things we've done well, have come to learn that a lot of them were built on the skeletons of our prior colonies, and now although of proud of our Olympic, medical an other national heroes am under no illusion we are but an averagely successful middle tier multicultural nation.
This thread has become depressing c/w insults and multiple examples of attempted points scoring
Agreed so with that.
