This is a genuine question, just out of curiosity with no hidden agenda.
If you can help with an answer, please get in quick before the idiots get the thread locked.
I've often heard travellers described as Irish travellers and quite a few that I've met do seem to have an Irish accent.
I've also often heard people at pains to point out that travellers are not Romany Gypsies.
So, are travellers a distinct ethnic or racial group, whether that's a subgroup of Irish or not ?
Or are they just an insular group drawn from the wider population, a bit like the Hells Angels or Salvation Army, for want of a better way of putting it ?
For the purposes of the various anti discrimination laws they are an ethnic group - or rather a alliance of several such groups.
Some are an ethnic group, some are "new age" trvellers who are usually stoners from oxfordshire. But yeah, "proper" Gypsies rather than travellers are considered to be an ethnic group.
the Annual School Census notes a pupil's ethnicity - out of the 100 or so ethnic groups there is a group called 'white irish traveller' and another is 'roma gypsy'. So based on this data alone, yes.
roma gypsies are a ethnic group
irish pikeys are not.
I think the term traveller to describe all people who choose to live a nomadic (or semi-nomadic) lifestyle is problematic. I am a cyclist but I am sure there as many 'types' of cyclists as there are folks riding bikes.
I would am a traveller. I have been for over seven years but I am not Romany, Irish, new-age or pikey! I'm a man who lives in a van who has no home. I'm also a cyclist (and many other things too)!
Most Irish travellers are white Europeans they are simply travellers. The only true gypsies are ROMA and ant at all like the Irish travels, as they came from India a few 1000 years ago.
Traditional ‘gypsies’ (as opposed to travellers) are capable of being a racial group on the basis of ethnic origin (Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton [1989] QB783)
what about Geordies, Scousers, Cockneys etc
roma gypsies are a ethnic group
irish pikeys are not.
No, irish Pikeys are an ethnic group, are they british? are they the majority population in the UK? no, therefore by definition they are of a minority ethnic group.
Now whether they should be given special treatment, that is a different question, and on that score i would also say no. If you want to teach your children their heritage that is the parents issue, but should the state be subsidising any form of racial segregation?
irish pikeys are not.
Incorrect. Unless it's just in the uninformed ignorant opinion of the person that said it.
Anyway, even if he is from Nailsea, and looks like a bit of a pikey, deluded has it. And he [i]should[/i] know. 😉
No. They're just caravaners. Very annoying people.
In my experience, "Travelers" are people who choose to opt out of society when it suits them but expect to enjoy its benefits and the respect of those that are fully paid-up members of a tax-funded society.
The fact that they want permanent homes, yet still enjoy the benefits of a nomadic existence (ie not pay any tax or be encumbered by any planning laws) really grinds my gears.
I should have made it clear that I meant the Transit van & Caravan travellers, not the Hippy Bus travellers.
Although that does raise an interesting point.
If they are not a separate race, but just "ordinary" people who have chosen to live that way, why are they considered an ethnic group for anti-discriminatory laws when hippies are not ?
On a vaguely similar theme, I get PPE supplied at work.
I asked for some vegan safety boots.
Under recent changes to the law, for my employer to refuse to supply them would be discrimination, along the lines of racial or religious discrimination.
I chose to become vegan of my own free will, and I could give it up if I wanted to.
Could I choose to become a traveller if I wanted to ?
Obviously, I could buy a caravan and live in it, but could I become an ethnic traveller without being born in to it ?
Nope. 'Obtain' a massive Mitsubishi 4x4 and 6-birth touring caravan and you're in.
Most Irish travels are white and Europeans, Roma are a ethinc group..the Irish are not a ethnic group.
The only true gypsies are ROMA and ant at all like the Irish travels, as they came from India a few 1000 years ago
I believe this has only been proved recently with modern DNA tests.
Wasn't it widely believed at one time that [b]Gyp[/b]sies were from E[b]gyp[/b]t ?
So, are "white Irish travellers" a separate race, going by DNA tests ?
@ Shibboleth
Wow! What a load of bigotted generalisation!
In terms of criminal offences - a racial group is defined under s. 28(4) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. In each case hostility must be based on the relevant person’s membership of a racial group, i.e. membership of a group of people defined by reference to
Race
Colour
Nationality
Ethnic Origins
National Origins
in determining whether or not a group is defined by ETHNIC ORIGINS, the courts will have regard to the judgement in the House of Lords in Mandla v Dowell Lee [1983] 2 AC 548. In that case it was decided that Sikhs were such a group after considering
a long shared HISTORY
a CULTURAL TRADITION of their own
a common GEOGRAPHICAL ORIGIN or descent from a small number of common ANCESTORS
a common LANGUAGE
a common RELIGION
the CHARACTERISTIC of being a MINORITY or OPPRESSED or a DOMINANT group within a larger community.
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
The only true gypsies are ROMA and ant at all like the Irish travels, as they came from India a few 1000 years agoI believe this has only been proved recently with modern DNA tests.
Wasn't it widely believed at one time that Gypsies were from Egypt ?
So, are "white Irish travellers" a separate race, going by DNA tests ?
nope they are the same as us. were all the ****ing same any way just with diffrent "colour ways"
Milky, why? Do you know what "bigotted" (sic) means?
The fact that they want permanent homes, yet still enjoy the benefits of a nomadic existence
Where do you get this startling info from? I thought the whole point was that they [i]don't[/i] want permanent homes.
yes many of the Irish travels also own homes.
Actually most Roma people are not travellers. The majority of them live in their own community in Romania and have done for the last 1000 years. Of the current ' travelling' community, there is a law of thirds, in that a third are static, a third travel, but very much within the samelocal area / county, and a third travel wider, has been this way for while, though i dunno how long.
deluded, that's interesting. So, to use my examples above, Hells angels, The Salvation Army and vegans don't fit that definition.
Do travellers though ?
tablesalt, I appreciate your point in trying to avoid divisiveness, but I find the "Out of Africa" theory and the way the Basques are not related to any other Europeans for example fascinating.
It's a shame things like this can't be discussed without offensiveness or defensiveness from one side or the other.
I thought the whole point was that they don't want permanent homes.
You've never heard of Dale Farm, for example?
Ahhh. Mandla v Dowell Lee. I wrote my final year dissertaion for my law degree on that case and whether or not Irish Travellers could be considered an ethnic group by applying that test. This was before there was race relations legislation in place in NI.
I concluded they could but then so could people from the nationalist tradition here but reclassing sectarian crime / discrimination as racial would open up a whole new can of worms.
reclassing sectarian crime / discrimination as racial would open up whole new can of worms.
That was quite an insightful prediction Shooterman...
MTG
I'm no expert (just flicking through my police manuals) but for the purposes of criminal offences I'd say your 'common or garden' traveller is NOT an ethnic group but traditional gypsies are, having regard to the case law above.
OY DD - just noticed that - Cheeky little tinker. Next time you want to convey your bikes you'll have to use a pony & trap 😀
Cheeky little tinker
Racially fruity language from a Polis.
*emails link to thread to Portishead*
😛
😀
So ...
Romanian heritage and ancestors = Yes
Egyptian heritage and ancestors = Yes
Opt out of the system and buy a van and offer to cut yer hedges = No
Portishead is not as beautiful as Avonmouth.
My Granny was of Roma descent.. no-one in our family has travelled for generations though really (although I quite fancied the new-age bit in my youth..)
So I'm not a traveller or a gypsy.. but I firmly believe that anyone who still has the pride and mettle to turn their back on the life of senseless consumerism and blind obedience that the British wage slave chooses.. whatever their ancestry happens to be.. has earned the right to call themselves whatever they like and has far more right to the land than any of us..
My ACPOS diversity booklet states...'There are several categories of people within the group defined as Gypsies and Travellers. 1) Romany and Irish Travellers, 2) Fairground and Circus Travellers, 3) New Age Travellers and 4) Gypsies.
Romanies are recognised as a distinct ethnic minority group and are protected by the RR(A) Act 2000.
Irish Travellers are a distinct occupational group and have a language of their own called 'cant' or 'gammon'.
So that's how it is in Scotland anyway.
salvation army arnt an ethnic groip they cant hav sexule partners hells angles maybe but they spekeenglish
😆
yunki - Member
I firmly believe that anyone who still has the pride and mettle to turn their back on the life of senseless consumerism and blind obedience that the British wage slave chooses.. whatever their ancestry happens to be.. has earned the right to call themselves whatever they like and has far more right to the land than any of us..
Far and away the biggest load of twaddle I've ever read on this forum... And this is a forum that ranks as off-the-scale on my twaddlometer.
Sometimes the world just needs Mark Datz to cut through the BS and get right to the heart of the matter.. 🙂
Far and away the biggest load of twaddle I've ever read on this forum...
thanks very much for enlightening us with that insight Shabby.. 😀
Far and away the biggest load of twaddle I've ever read on this forum
Nah; your bigoted rant about tatoos was far twaddlier. 😀
mmmmmmm..... twaddle
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If they are not a separate race, but just "ordinary" people who have chosen to live that way, why are they considered an ethnic group for anti-discriminatory laws when hippies are not ?
Interesting one I don't have any answers. There is a group of hippies who have been parking up somewhere in the New forest for a few weeks over the past few winters. They are very conscientious of there litter and do seem to be left alone more, but it may also be because they are not Transit and caravan travellers as well. I don't know.
Itinerant worker, living in a beat up old caravan, sometimes forgets to pay his taxes..... Is this molgrips we're talking about? 😆
On the grounds that one can't just change one's ethnicity by buying a caravan & living illegally on someone else's land...no. Isn't that obvious?
Are there travellers who might be of a different ethnicity? Of course.
Common sense, facts, and the law don't always go hand in hand though.
living illegally on someone else's land
[url= http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/pjproudhon/whatisproperty/toc.htm ]what is property? - Pierre Joseph Proudhon [/url]
