I was up to maybe 60 already on the slip road ready to join and we both drew level at the junction when I first saw him.
If you're doing 60, level, when you first saw him, that's piss poor observation. Also it would have taken another 20 m or so to pass him on the slip road and join the Mway ahead of him. (apart from the fact that that dotted line means give way)
If you want to play the “actual GPS-measured speed +10%” game then don’t whing if you’ve been caught by “drifting over”. We have speed limits, not speed targets. Just aim to be around the speed limit as shown on your speedo and you’ll be fine. If you “drift” more than 10% over the indicated speed limit then you’re not paying enough attention.
if this is aimed at my comment, that it’s easy to drift over without cruise control?
I didn’t mention being near the ACPO guidelines, just the drifting over indicated 50 bit.
You need to be near 50 to keep up with the flow of traffic and we are not machines, STW/Perfect driver or not,
30-50k miles per year without incident or tickets (aside forgetting congestion or Dart Charge) over the last 20 years.
Oh, I did reverse a van into an aircon unit once.
I’ve just posted this on the Ukrainian thread, but speed cameras in Kursk Oblast are catching large numbers of reservists who are being hunted by FPV drones, and the police and courts aren’t accepting that as an excuse. After all there isn’t a war on, things are carrying on just like they always have…
We drove back from Malverns the other day 3.5 hours without stopping, the 50 limits are insane. In a 50 when there’s clearly nothing happening at all and no hazards to be aware of I’m doing 54 on cruise control. My excuse, I have a toddler and to be honest we usually don’t stop if he’s asleep so the luxury poo doesn’t get done and we do arrive sooner ?.
It must’ve been for around 20-30 miles I’d say combined between M42 and M1, maybe the M6 too I can’t remember.
ACPO guidelines for prosecution is 10%+2
ACPO doesn't exist and neither do the "guidelines"
ACPO doesn’t exist
Every days a school day - yes, I googled to check
There are tons of ‘roadworks’ i drive through that have restricted limits and the vast majority don’t have any visible road works or workers on them. And tbh pretty much everyone just ignores the temporary limit
In a 50 when there’s clearly nothing happening at all and no hazards to be aware of
Just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean there’s nothing going on. Could be damage to safety features you can’t see. Speed limit is reduced, which reduces any potential impact speed on weakened features. Was one on the A9 for weeks just before Dunblane, due to the central reservation barrier at a junction being totalled. Very few people sticking to the 50 and if the same accident had happened again, nothing to stop cars ending up in the wrong carriageway.
Could also be just to help traffic flow. A9 north of Perth is a much nicer, smoother drive with the average cameras in place. Admittedly the 50 limit for HGV’s helps, but they never stuck to the limit beforehand anyway.
As others say, indicated speed is different to actual, one car i have reads pretty much on the money, the i10 we have reads 10% lower at 40mph, having just travelled to and from Scotland, it is amazing how many cars just ignore most of it, the variable speed limits on managed motorways, average speed cameras, lots of dark range rovers was the theme.
As for the A9, i don't ever enjoy that road, the average speed cameras just seem like a tacked on 'safety' feature, but in all my time using it, the A9 has always been a nightmare for dangerous overtaking (not helped by slow moving vehicles now) and the amount of junctions that has cars having to slowly cross a carriageway and then go from 0 to 70 in no time at all, the amount of times i've seen people misjudge the gap and cause mass panic is unreal.
Acpo doesn't exist any more?
I thought it did years ago and ended in the last century?
Or is it an urban myth then ? The 10% + 2mph ?
I got a speed awareness course for 60 in a 50 down cathedral hill in Guildford that is a long down hill and there are lots of crashes with the à31 slip road .
But there's no cameras on the other up hill carriage way.
ACPO doesn’t exist and neither do the “guidelines”
depends what you mean by that ACPO has been disbanded and essentially replaced by new bodies. The guidelines referred to are no longer “current” but the document definitely exists:
and as far as I know is still the defacto policy in England.
The cameras are in pairs
Really? Is that knowledge or here say? The way they are setup on the motorways down here (with cameras on the exits) suggests a gated setup.
I think it requires a pair of cameras to cover 3 or 4 lanes , but only 1 camera for 1 or 2 lanes . Hence seeing a single camera on a slip road for example
...and as far as I know is still the defacto policy in England
Have you found the NPCC version? The ACPO document should have been reviewed in 2015 and has never been replaced. Parts date from much earlier. In any case the out of date document includes:
para 9.4 The Police Service now uses technology that enables it to prove that an offence has been committed as soon as a driver exceeds the relevant speed limit by a very small margin. Motorists will therefore be at risk of prosecution immediately they exceed any legal speed limit.
para 9.7 Where an officer decides to issue a summons or a fixed penalty notice in respect of offences committed at speeds lower than those set out in the table, he or she must consider the tolerances of the equipment used to corroborate their opinion. Police speed equipment are tested and approved to work with a maximum tolerance of +/-2mph up to 66mph and 3% for all speeds higher than 66mph, so it is possible to use these tolerances as a prosecution threshold.
Confused.com wrote an article last year. Seventeen forces in E&W didn't respond. Do you feel lucky? https://www.confused.com/car-insurance/guides/speed-camera-tolerances
Speed enforcement tech has moved on from the days of striking a tuning fork on the heel of your shoe to test a Ku-band hand-held RADAR (been there, done that)
Our old RADAR (late-80s) would pick up the moving fan blades in the car's heater, which was why police here would stand outside with the engine off. Modern kit is more discerning and more accurate, although that's only part of the reason for tolerances
You'd have to query who the prosecuting authority is for other cameras, e.g. National Highways cameras, if it isn't the police (I don't know) then they won't be bound by out-of-date guidelines on fixed devices that are accurate to 0.1%, rather than 2mph-3%
If you’re doing 60, level, when you first saw him, that’s piss poor observation. Also it would have taken another 20 m or so to pass him on the slip road and join the Mway ahead of him. (apart from the fact that that dotted line means give way)
Well I'm glad you are familiar with that junction and the exact size and visibility of it.
I do my best but am not a perfect driver 100% of the time and never said this was the ideal behaviour in that situation. Fact of the matter remains that 40ish is way too slow for a motorway and if he had been going at a normal speed (even 50) this would never have happened. Speeds I mentioned are obviously estimated and I don't know exactly how fast it was... as I came onto the short area of dotted lines we drew level and I didn't have the acceleration to get in front with a safe distance, so I dropped in behind and then had to cut speed sharply because he was going even slower than I expected at first. I did not feel safe at that speed so overtook asap. Very sorry. Next time I will either come to stop on the junction or come down the slip road at 40, just in case.
(Edit: sorry if that came across a bit strong. I've been having a bad week)
Really? Is that knowledge or here say? The way they are setup on the motorways down here (with cameras on the exits) suggests a gated setup.
Hearsay tbh... maybe I read it in an article somewhere. Probably a mix of both with cameras on the exits as well. With it being computer controlled I don't see why they can't change from time to time which cameras are doing the measuring on different parts of the road (that is my thinking entirely, based on nothing!).
I think it requires a pair of cameras to cover 3 or 4 lanes , but only 1 camera for 1 or 2 lanes . Hence seeing a single camera on a slip road for example
For normal cameras, sure, but how can average speed cams work with only one? I suspect you are thinking of the new style cameras which are small & yellow so look very much like the average speed ones:
https://www.mustard.co.uk/van-insurance-guides/new-uk-speed-cameras/
I have 3 points on my license from average speed cameras. 44 average in a 30.
My Dad was having a heart attack, and we were told three hours for an ambulance. It took 15 minutes for me to drive him to the hospital, whereupon he immediately crashed, was brought back, and went straight into surgery. If we’d waited for the ambulance he’d be dead. 3 points and a hundred quid fine - bargain. I’d do it again without hesitation.
A9, i don’t ever enjoy that road, the average speed cameras just seem like a tacked on ‘safety’ feature, but in all my time using it, the A9 has always been a nightmare for dangerous overtaking (not helped by slow moving vehicles now)
I guess that I have been lucky, my experience of the A9 is that since the combined use of average speed cameras and allowing the 38t trucks to do 50mph on the single carriageway sections came it it’s a much more relaxed drive between Perth and Inverness and the average speeds are actually higher than before. But I do tend to time my journeys to avoid the really busy times.
Agree - A9 is a better (less awful) experience since the vultures went up.
We have speed limits, not speed targets.
/Sigh.
Do that in your driving test and there’s a decent chance you’ll be failed.
We may well have speed limits not targets, but if you're bimbling along without good reason it would be a test failure. The usual STW suspects like to strawman "making progress" as being synonymous with "drive like you've stolen it," but making progress is exactly what you're expected to do unless road/traffic situations dictate otherwise.
If the speed differential between you and everyone else - in either direction, slower or faster - is too great then you become a hazard.
ACPO doesn’t exist and neither do the “guidelines”
Well, yes, but it did exist back when I was younger and stupider.
although that’s only part of the reason for tolerances
The elephant in the room here is that whilst measuring equipment might well be accurate to a fraction of a percentage, there simply isn't the resources to prosecute everyone doing 50.01mph in a 50 zone because it would be, well, "everyone."
Just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean there’s nothing going on. Could be damage to safety features you can’t see.
Agreed. I'm of the mind that more people would obey temporary restrictions if it was better communicated as to why. There was one recently on a motorway near where I live, there was nothing to see other than cones but there was a big sign up telling drivers that there were people working under the bridge.
It pisses me off that people feel the need to worry about what speed I’m driving at. If I want to do 40mph on a 50mph road then I will (and usually do)
HC 169 applies here. Careful that you don't fall foul of Careless or Inconsiderate Driving, one of the test for which can be:
Unnecessarily slow driving, or braking without good cause
From here
See how many laps you can do before they change lane.
9 laps, 9 is my record. Driving up the M40 London to Birmingham.
the i10 we have reads 10% lower at 40mph
You sure? A car speedo should never read under what you are actually doing. It's a legal/homologation requirement.
One of the most dangerous and time consuming aspects of roadworks is the setting up of traffic management. Yes there will be times when there is no one working in the carriageway but, as has been said, cones flying around at 70mph isn't fun. For major works, motorways and dual carriageways will have to be closed to set up.
So yeah, that's why you're doing 50mph.
Foreign plates, I'm golden ?
It pisses me off that people feel the need to worry about what speed I’m driving at. If I want to do 40mph on a 50mph road then I will (and usually do)
HC 169 applies here. Careful that you don’t fall foul of Careless or Inconsiderate Driving, one of the test for which can be:Unnecessarily slow driving, or braking without good cause
Drivers who live by that mantra are a pita, and are basically a moving traffic hazard. I was following a car recently, which was doing less than 40 on a road varying between 50 and 60, with the brakes continuously flashing on at the slightest deviation of the road from straight.
Increasing frustration at being held up, and constantly having to touch the brakes because the hazard in front can’t or won’t keep to a steady pace is what causes accidents. The weather was fine and dry, there is no excuse for any drivers who’ve passed a driving test to drive in such a fashion, and frankly I feel they should be given a refresher driving course.
Back to average speed cameras, I use the speed limiter on my car, set at 52mph on my satnav, which equals 50 on my car’s speedometer - cruise control is pointless because without appropriate sensors cars don’t keep to the exact same speed, mine doesn’t even have front parking sensors, let alone proximity sensors like VW’s have. Using the limiter means I keep a steady speed that’s often slightly faster than most other vehicles, but on the camera average speed, and it allows me to lift off if the traffic slows down.
The worst stretch when I was doing logistics for BCA was on the M6 north of Birmingham, which IIRC was over 14 miles, talk about mind-numbing tedium! [img] 
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"Drivers who live by that mantra are a pita, and are basically a moving traffic hazard. I was following a car recently, which was doing less than 40 on a road varying between 50 and 60"
Over the years I have wondered if they get more speeding tickets - there is a big subset of this group for whom 40 means 40 and that's what they do. Enter a village and they zoom off ahead of you as the 30 or 20 limit does not apply to them.
Anyone else noticed that usually if someone pulls out on you forcing evasive action, they are almost invariably slow.
Back to average speed cameras, I use the speed limiter on my car, set at 52mph on my satnav, which equals 50 on my car’s speedometer
surely other way round, car speedos can't indicate less than you're doing, that'd be a 'mare if you get ticketed for exceeding and your car was then tested and you can show your speedo said 50 and the actual was >50. One of those areas where ignorance is a defence.
My car reads about 5% over - I drive the A3 roadworks most days and when it isn't a queue (northbound, every day for the last 3 years basically and another year to go) then 50mph on google maps is 53 on the speedo. Most people seem to have the hang of it, but you do still get the odd 'slow past the yellow cameras and then smash it to the next one'.
I wish there were more average speed cameras, thousands of them. In every village and town.
High initial cost but once installed, unless the neds torch them , cheaper in the long run.
When I'm in charge only 5% will be active, and the rest dormant. The beauty is no one will know which one is live or not . So you can roll the dice or stick to the posted limit.
I imagine the radar and camera and upload gubbins are the majority of the cost , and should be able to be mounted on a chassis so an operator can unlock the pole , slide out the hardware and move it to a new location.
You can just hear the whining on Facebook already about the unfairness of it
I imagine the radar and camera and upload gubbins are the majority of the cost , and should be able to be mounted on a chassis so an operator can unlock the pole , slide out the hardware and move it to a new location.
This is basically how the ASCs on the A9 north of Perth operate. When they went operational there were only 6 recording devices for the 20 or so cameras. They'd be swapped around occasionally so you never knew which segments were "live". When they extended the dual carriageway between Perth and Birnam.a couple of the camera points were removed, so there are now higher odds of being caught at the remaining camera locations. It's also possible that they've acquired more recording devices too.
I was following a car recently, which was doing less than 40 on a road varying between 50 and 60, with the brakes continuously flashing on at the slightest deviation of the road from straight.
I'm reasonably confident that most people who do this are genuinely oblivious to what the limit actually is.
