[Closed] Any speeding prosecution experts

Noid massively correct up to " If the sentencing judge deems your offence serious enough to warrant a period of discretionary disqualification, you can't argue that it will cause exceptional hardship. " which is slightly misleading . Given it is an absolute discretion surely the judge would or should take into account the impact on the defendant of a disqualification. In most circumstances the risk of a discretionary ban would be obvious and addressed in mitigation where it was not the judge would raise the issue and invite submissions .

Do you have any idea how many people are killed each year, by a car driver, because they were speeding?
Yes none. Speed has never killed a single person in the history of time. What kills people is too rapid a rate of deceleration. The human body reguarly travels faster than the speed of sound with no ill effects.
Not sure if you have done it deliberately, but you have misunderstood the question you commented on.

To word it another way.

How many people (cyclists/pedestrians/horse riders/other motorists) every year are killed by Car Drivers that are speeding ?

If by that do you mean how many cars were involved in accidents then lots. Where speed was a factor relatively few. According to the governments own research only 5% of accidents and 12% of fatal accidents had speed as 1 of the factors. They didn't publish a figure for the proportion of these where speed was the main factor. Source: Department for Transport, contributory factors to road accidents, 2006.

So in reality speed is not a major factor in the cause of accidents.

cougar - ... which is what I said. ".... if there are other factors than just speeding involved? "

yes I was agreeing with you and clarifying some examples of "Not immediately sure when they'd apply that though"...

crankboy - surely the judge would or should take into account the impact on the defendant of a disqualification

You are right, the process of sentencing would take into account all of the circumstances of the offence and the offender, and would likely include an awareness of issues that might result in hardship, however in the case of a "totting up disqualification" the offender is entitled to have a special hearing (proof) which only assesses the hardship case. Ordinarily it will be held on a separate day, and the offender leads evidence to support his case, and can be cross examined on it. Witnesses who were nothing to do with the offence may be called, e.g. an elderly relative or an employer. The nature of the offence resulting in totting up is not usually considered. No such provision exists for a discretionary disqualification, although as you say at a high level it may form part of the sentencing decision in the first place.

I note that para 12, p185 of the English & Welsh sentencing guidelines contradicts what I said earlier about 'volunteering' for a (short) ban. This would appear to be a difference North / South of the border; although they are only guidelines so Magistrates could ignore if there was a compelling reason.

[b]chrismac [/b]...according to the governments own research only 5% of accidents and 12% of fatal accidents had speed as 1 of the factors.

So in reality speed is not a major factor in the cause of accidents.

I've not looked at the statistics but that would [i]appear[/i] to suggest that speed is more likely to make an accident a fatal one. But to answer the question you were posting about - there are around 2500 killed on our roads each year, so in simple terms about 300 people each year are killed where speed is a contributing factor. [it may well be more as fatal accidents are often multiple fatalities which will make my primitive maths not work]. There is typically 20,000 people seriously injured on our roads too - so thats another 1000 serious injuries that are at least partly attributed to excess speed.

EDIT - mmm - i've just looked up the report you mentioned out of curiosity. Google brought me the 2010 version... From the summary

Exceeding the speed limit was reported as a factor in 5 per cent of accidents, but these accidents involved 14 per cent of fatalities. At least one of exceeding the speed limit and travelling too fast for the conditions was reported in 12 per cent of all accidents and these accidents accounted for 24 per cent of all fatalities.

speed directly contributed to roughly 436/1620 deaths on our roads; and 2744/18043 serious accidents.

Slightly OT but can you get done by a camera van when you are on a motorbike? (not that I've got one these days) I'm assuming that the camera in the van only works when you are going towards it... unless you are particularly dim.

imnotverygood - no, normally the van is set up to detect oncoming traffic, but it can measure traffic going in the opposite direction too. However to specifically manage issues like "motorbikes" there is usually (always?) a camera pointing in the opposite direction too, to get the rear number plate.

Slightly OT but can you get done by a camera van when you are on a motorbike? (not that I've got one these days) I'm assuming that the camera in the van only works when you are going towards it... unless you are particularly dim.

If you do a mega wheelie while going past then they don't see it...

speed directly contributed to roughly 436/1620 deaths on our roads; and 2744/18043 serious accidents.

I think you're doubling up the impact there. The 5% accidents / 14% of fatalities is included within the 12% of accidents / 24% of fatalities. Which means 7% of accidents and 10% of fatalities are speed related but within the speed limit.

It sounds like the fixation with speed limit policing is a distraction from addressing the other 86% of fatalities.

Zedsdead - Member

If you do a mega wheelie while going past then they don't see it...

I remember a case where a biker was repeatedly speeding past a front facing fixed gatso, but also giving it the finger.
Plod weren't happy, and managed to trace him from the type of bike (quite uncommon) and the rough location.
I think he lost his licence.

Imnotverygood yes you can get done by vans when on motorbike. I have a few years back. Photo ws of me heading towards van (bloody long way off!) , I assume someone jotted down my plate on way passed.

I remember a case where a biker was repeatedly speeding past a front facing fixed gatso, but also giving it the finger.
Plod weren't happy, and managed to trace him from the type of bike (quite uncommon) and the rough location.
I think he lost his licence.

I remember a case where a scooter rider was flying past one almost everyday but as he passed he would swing his legs back and cover the plate with his feet. It was pretty funny. But not for him as he was also traced and subsequently banned. hehe!

noid - Member
Exceptional hardship (to be pedantic/correct in the terminology!) applies in totting up cases. IIRC it does not apply in discretionary disqualification cases. If the sentencing judge deems your offence serious enough to warrant a period of discretionary disqualification, you can't argue that it will cause exceptional hardship. Oh, and generally simply losing your job is not enough to prove exceptional hardship.
Incidentally, you appear to be confusing "pedantic" with "correct."
no, you appear to have confused inaccurate with correct.

Not sure this is correct. I've been in a couple of times with a clean licence and a 100+mph ticket. Both times I took it on the chin, presented mitigation under exceptional hardonship and walked with a hefty fine and some nice points. No child's faces or baby robins were involved so all ok then.

BTW, sentencing Judge? For speeding? Mebbies speeding+murder otherwise probly a Magistrate?

About 18 months ago I got caught speeding. The grey unmarked car was sitting at least 80ft off the main road up a farm track. He asked if I saw where they were on the road, I replied no.

I always wondered if I should have looked into this a bit further..

Is this common practice or do they have to be visible?

I got zapped by a bobby with a radar gun today, first time I've even seem one! Fortunately an awfully nice chap in a white van gave me some very clear signals to expect something around the corner, so I had slowed to an almost sarcastic looking speed of 20mph. Result!

I think you're doubling up the impact there. The 5% accidents / 14% of fatalities is included within the 12% of accidents / 24% of fatalities. Which means 7% of accidents and 10% of fatalities are speed related but within the speed limit./quote] I don;t think I am as I took the data direct from the table.

It sounds like the fixation with speed limit policing is a distraction from addressing the other 86% of fatalities.

mmm... there are roughly 80 causes of accident specified of which the top 7 are:

Loss of control 34%
Failed to look properly 25%
Careless, reckless or in a hurry 20%
Exceding speed limit 14%
Poor turn or manoeuvre 14%
Travelling too fast for road conditions 13%
Failed to judge other persons path of speed 12%

Which of the factors 'more common' than speed would you suggest are easy to enforce?

 

I got zapped by a bobby with a radar gun today, first time I've even seem one! Fortunately an awfully nice chap in a white van gave me some very clear signals to expect something around the corner, so I had slowed to an almost sarcastic looking speed of 20mph. Result

*Gets comfy, reaches for popcorn*

boble- Not sure this is correct. I've been in a couple of times with a clean licence and a 100+mph ticket. Both times I took it on the chin, presented mitigation under exceptional hardonship and walked with a hefty fine and some nice points. No child's faces or baby robins were involved so all ok then.

So you just pleaded mitigation, not "exception hardship". Exceptional Hardship has a specific legal meaning; it applies in terms of s35 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act (in relation to totting up); and e.g. any claims under that section can only be made once in a three year period. Discressionary disqualification s34(2) does not include any such special provision - although as rightly noted above, and appears to be the case in your situation wider mitigation can be considered.

BTW, sentencing Judge? For speeding? Mebbies speeding+murder otherwise probly a Magistrate?

A Magistrate is a Judge. I used the term sentencing Judge with the full intent of encompassing any of the judiciary who might be likely to decide the outcome of a speeding offence in the Britain: A Magistrate, or District Judge in England and Wales and a Justice of the Peace or Sheriff in Scotland. All are Judges, all cast sentence and are therefore sentencing Judges.

Slightly OT but can you get done by a camera van when you are on a motorbike? (not that I've got one these days) I'm assuming that the camera in the van only works when you are going towards it... unless you are particularly dim.

I've posted this here before, but:

A couple of years ago, I was driving somewhere up near Kirkby Lonsdale, a popular haunt of bikers. Up ahead was a mobile [s]speed[/s] safety camera van. As I approached it, a troupe of sports bikers in full Power Ranger battle armour steamed past me with complete disregard for the van at something approaching escape velocity.

Then about half a mile up the road, I encountered a second police van on a roundabout, accompanied by the same bikers, all parked up looking sheepish and gazing dejectedly at the floor whilst the Peeler wrote out a fat wad of tickets. Plod #1 had presumably radioed ahead to his mate to round them up.

Shouldn't laugh, or something.

I note that

heh, let's play spot the (junior?) solicitor 😉 🙂

Slightly OT but can you get done by a camera van when you are on a motorbike? (not that I've got one these days) I'm assuming that the camera in the van only works when you are going towards it... unless you are particularly dim.

A few years back Dumfries and Galloway constabulary apparently bought a special camera/radar van with a rotating camera/gun so that they could catch the speeding bikers headed through to the NWTT every year. The rotating camera/radar gun thing let them get the front and the back with the licence plate, where as the normal kit couldn't get the plates so they would need to pull them over manually further up the road.

(Note: This was a good few years ago and I may be misremembering or it was all a made up story in an effort to stop folk speeding)