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The cynic in me wonders if Hamas and the Israeli government are using the death and suffering of their respective people to further their own ends and strengthen their own positions.
Of course. Hamas went on a murder spree to provoke exactly the level of reaction the Israeli government is now delivering to Gaza. They don't care about the 2.1m men, women and children in Gaza. Setting back peace efforts in the middle east, and seeding a new generation of young recruits is a fine reward for death and misery.
In Israel, Netanyahu will be buoyed by being a 'wartime leader', even though there will be deep embarrassment over the ease with which thousands of Hamas fighters managed to cross into Israel.
Genuine friends of Israel should be trying harder to hold them back from committing war crimes on a civilian population, because it is exactly what their enemy wants.
There was no-one to hold back the US and its allies after 9/11, all our governments were swept along in a revenge-fest that cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives and probably helped recruit some of those who struck at Israel this month.
There was no-one to hold back the US and its allies after 9/11, all our governments were swept along in a revenge-fest that cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives and probably helped recruit some of those who struck at Israel this month.
Very much this. There was a cautionary article about this in the Guardian a couple of days ago
The attack on Israel has been called a ‘9/11 moment’. Therein lies a cautionary tale
If the Israeli government responds to this moment like George W Bush, it will soon follow the route of his government from global sympathy to global outrage
In the meantime, it unfortunately looks like our joke of a government is going to be as much of a nodding dog as it was back then and go along with whatever the Israeli's do in retaliation, no matter how extreme
Grant Schapps is on Radio 4 at moment, saying as much. He's utterly pathetic and is just parotting the Israeli line about its 'right to defend themselves' and is now going with the the Daily Mail line of attacking the BBC instead, as a distraction. He's being taken apart obviously, not that he'll care
Grant Shapps MP just shatt himself live on R4. He had his balls nailed to the wall by Mishal Husain over the UK Gov seemingly being supportive of 1.1m Gazans being asked to move in 24hrs.
You could almost hear his brain ticking over, 'don't say anything implicating the UK to war crimes, don't say anything implicating the UK to war crimes'.
Seems the Israeli strategy is clear now. They're going to do a Maruipol on Gaza city, push as many of the 2M Palestinians into Egyptian refugee camps, and kill anyone else left remaining. Then they'll claim Gaza (or at least the northern half of it) as their own. It's going to be the worst example of ethnic cleansing we've seen since WWII, and Western govts are going to stand aside and let them do it. If that happens we'll see the West Bank explode and then that will drag in other Arab states. We're in very dangerous times.
Biden can’t afford to risk upsetting the Jewish vote.
I obviously know that it wasn't intended to be (you have friends/family in Israel?) but that is the narrative often pushed by anti-semites.
The Jewish vote in the United States is mostly exaggerated. Only 2.4% of the population are Jewish. Furthermore American Jews are far from universally supportive of Israel, some of the most outspoken critics of Israel are American Jews.
The majority of Jewish voters in the US are opposed to the current Israeli government policy of further colonisation in Occupied Palestine.
So much so if fact that they support restrictions on US military aid to Israel.
"In 2021, a Jewish Electorate Institute poll found that 58% of American Jewish voters support restrictions on US military aid to prevent Israel using it to expand West Bank settlements."
Jews are not the bad guys! Zionists are.
can you think of any at all?
Sure, the US has committed so many war crimes you could start a thread of them all by themselves, as has Iran, Russia, China, the UK. France, Turkey Syria...etc etc. If the low bar to their behaviour is that they tell everyone beforehand, what difference does that make if they behave like every other overly-heavily armed country, i.e. with impunity?
I'm horrified by the tactics used by the IDF, but I don't think for a second that any other militarised right wing govt would do anything different.
@martinhutch well said. The tit for tat escalates until it creates another angry generation.
There’s an election year in the US and Biden can’t afford to risk upsetting the Jewish vote.
Trump seems to be making a halfway decent attempt at it with his praise of Hezbollah.
Keir Starmer has basically said Israel can do whatever the hell it it likes
I don't think he has really He's said publicly
"I think that Israel does have that right, it is an ongoing situation, obviously everything should be done within international law but I don't want to step away from the core principles that Israel has the right to defend herself."
And people with vested interests on either side of the debate are using it to either condemn him or support him.
The tit for tat escalates until it creates another angry generation.
And if we think we're immune from that we're not. The UK's and western support for this is going to result in a new wave of Islamic terrorism in our own countries, with all the resultant erosion of human rights, increase in authoritarianism and surveillance, and sectarian divides within our communities. What a shitshow.
I don’t think he has really He’s said publicly
Well I hope to be corrected. I'll be looking forward to his calls for restraint and condemnation of ethnic cleansing.
I’m horrified by the tactics used by the IDF, but I don’t think for a second that any other militarised right wing govt would do anything different.
I can't agree. Even under a neo-con administration the United States has never behaved in the Middle East in the way that Israel currently is.
I guess at least one big difference is that the Israeli government can afford to ignore public opinion, United States governments cannot.
Labour are terrified of the antisemitic/Corbyn tag
Maybe it would have been better if the last leader hadn't been so relaxed about taking money from Iranian state TV, calling Hamas "friends", and having an advisor who publicly praised Hamas...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-regrets-calling-hamas-and-hezbollah-friends
The scale and sophistication of the attack required a lot of planning, and there were no warnings?
Tin foil hat time. Israel knew about it and let it happen as it has given them the perfect reason for now wiping out Hamas - maybe they underestimated the Israeli death toll but it was a means to an end.
They couldn't just invade Gaza and wipe out Hamas unprovoked could they.
And if we think we’re immune from that we’re not.
Yep. I'm scared for several reasons.
calling Hamas “friends”, and having an advisor who publicly praised Hamas…
You have just linked to a 7 year old article, the current pro-Israeli Tory government decided less than two years ago that Hamas was a terrorist organisation. The EU has provided funds for Hamas.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916
The young Palestinian girl injured, crying, reminded me of my own niece. I cried last night when I saw this..
This is not right, civilians shall not be legitimate targets for either side.
Stop the madness.
The UK’s and western support for this is going to result in a new wave of Islamic terrorism in our own countries
Has there ever been a wave of terrorism in the UK linked to Palestine?
I find it slightly baffling that the west (USA and Europe) are so vocal in their support of modern Israel. It feels to me like its just tipping fuel on an already unstable fire.
I’m horrified by the tactics used by the IDF, but I don’t think for a second that any other militarised right wing govt would do anything different.
I'm sorry Nick, I usually think you're on point but with this you're way off. Same with the references to 9/11.
Park the clearly emotional responses to this, and the history lessons for a moment.
What would you do if you where the bod at the top, and someone just murdered 3000 of your citizens? Or carried out this current attack?
Sit on your hands and say "well we might have deserved it?"
Let's not allow luxury beliefs and the relative safety we live in and the isualtion we have from that level of responsibility take a measured discssion to fantasy land.
The response is appropriate, it's the methodology that is flawed and illegal.
The majority of Jewish voters in the US are opposed to the current Israeli government policy of further colonization in Occupied Palestine
Those guys in the photo - Naturei Karta - are a tiny subgroup of a religious fringe. Like all extremists, they are absolutely bonkers, hanging out in Tehran with holocaust deniers. Using them to illustrate a claim about mainstream US Jewish opinion is extremely disingenous.
Israel's situation isn't the US's. Multiple invasions by a coalation of all of her neighbours, and in Hamas an opponent that has this in its charter: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea."
So I also think that any other militarised right wing govt wouldn't do anything different. What's needed is a goverment that holds back, but Israel doesn't have that.
Tin foil hat time. Israel knew about it and let it happen as it has given them the perfect reason for now wiping out Hamas
This is just recycling 9/11 conspiracy theory. Did a man in a petrol station tell you not to go to Manchester on Friday because you lent him a pound?
This is just recycling 9/11 conspiracy theory. Did a man in a petrol station tell you not to go to Manchester on Friday because you lent him a pound?
Yeah, it's not like Hamas might have an inkling about counter-intelligence awareness courtesy of their associations with Iran.
Sometimes you just need one side to be off their game slightly and it delivers a victory for the other.
If they keep pushing antisemitism to mute their war crimes and murder in Gaza, many will start wearing that lable with pride.
Look at Trump's latest narrative, say what you want about him, but he's an excellent weathervane of latent public opinion.
Also, where the **** are a million people supposed to move to? How can the UK and the US allow this ethnic cleansing? What appalling hypocrites and cowards they are.
I find it slightly baffling that the west (USA and Europe) are so vocal in their support of modern Israel. It feels to me like its just tipping fuel on an already unstable fire.
It is about the region being vital to the US and Europe, there are no similar concerns about the rest of the African continent.
The Western government support for Israel is nothing more than political posturing. The UK has announced that it is giving military assistance to Israel, as Israel launches its attack on 2 million mostly unarmed civilians.
Militarily Israel is one of the most powerful nations on earth, yesterday Israeli warplanes were bombing Syria, Israel certainly don't need any military assistance from the UK.
Edit: No not warplanes...... Israel launched a missile strike on Syria yesterday.
So, what is the worst case scenario here?
I’m happy to go on the record to utterly condemn Netanyahu’s govts actions.
Same here, it sickens me.
So, what is the worst case scenario here?
I have a horrible feeling we're about to find out
The hardliners in the Israeli government are playing right into Hamas hands with their (over)reaction. If whats about to happen is as bad as we all now expect, then the entire middle east could erupt as a reaction.
This is what Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the nutters in Iran all want, because in their eyes this will give them a sense of legitimacy which they will then ruthlessly exploit and they're all absolutely ****ing mental!
Tin foil hat time.
I don't think it needs a tin foil hat to see how events have played out here. Iran and Qatar don't want Israel and Saudi Arabia to normalise their relationship, and anticipating Netanyahu's over-reaction would be if they directed Hamas to launch hugely violent attacks within Israel went ahead - with scant regard to effect that they undoubtly knew that would have on the civilians of Gaza. And so they have been proved completely right.
neither Netanyahu or Hamas want peace, it serves neither of their needs. Bastards
The end of this will be an abhorrent act. I think the two sides are so entrenched in their positions, smoke being blown up their arses from their respective supporters that it's impossible to solve.
Violence begets more violence, thus jusitifying ever increasing levels of action.
The young Palestinian girl injured, crying, reminded me of my own niece. I cried last night when I saw this..
This is not right, civilians shall not be legitimate targets for either side.
Hamas knew exactly what the response would be
The Israeli state as responded just as Hamas thought they would. And there is civilian casualties on both sides.
Hamas could, of course, not attacked.
Those guys in the photo – Naturei Karta – are a tiny subgroup of a religious fringe. Like all extremists, they are absolutely bonkers
And the message on the placards ? The main point of this particular photo. Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.
How about this one ? anyone here you consider unfit to deliver such a message ?
This is what Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the nutters in Iran all want
I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don't understand what they want exactly? My mind can't comprehend what is going on, much like what has/is happening in Ukraine. The world really is in a very perilous state right now.
I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don’t understand what they want exactly?
They're not shy of letting everyone know exactly what they want: the complete destruction of the state of Israel
Nothing less. And they couldn't give a flying **** what has to happen and how many people have to die to achieve that. You are not dealing with rational people here. We are talking about the most extreme of extremists
The main point of this particular photo. Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.
Alf Dubs, Jewish Holocaust survivor, at the Labour Party Conference a couple of days ago:
https://twitter.com/PSCupdates/status/1711420661271351507
(Second photo)
The Israeli politicians have done a great job of making Israel and Judaism one and the same. Now obviously Israel was created as a Jewish state but the Israeli government have convinced people that to criticise Israel is to criticise Judaism. Ergo any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
So much so that a practicing Jew was accused of being antisemitic for criticising Israel.
Regarding Israel being able to commit genocide and get away with it. The West needs someone to carry out their dirty work in Iran. Giving Israel a get out of jail free card.
Long story short Hamas are dicks for killing Israelis and Israel are dicks for killing Palestinians. Just wish someone had the answer.
I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don’t understand what they want exactly?
Once heard the shout of 'god is great' before a tricky job. Looking at the aftermath it didn't look or feel so great for them but the ones that sold them the plan weren't there. They were sat in a compound on aid money that had been paid to them by a local governer.
Powerful people wanting wealth, control and influence sending others do to the hard yards to gain and maintain that.
Some wear uniforms, some wear rags.
Just wish someone had the answer.
There is an answer but it's ****ing ugly.
Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.
How about this one ? anyone here you consider unfit to deliver such a message ?
You have literally picked another photo of the exact same extremist bonkers fringe group. Look at the sign he is holding up - www.nkusa.org . The only reason anyone knows these guys is because they show up in full black hat gear to demonstrations and the occasional holocaust denial conference.
This a wildly distorting way to illustrate a statistic on mainstream US Jewish opinion. I would hate to see what your Google search term history looks like...
Hamas want to wipe out Israel. This has been repeatedly stated and is clear from their (repeated) actions.
The unfortunate reality is that Israel will now go into Gaza to fight Hamas head-on, but it's the unfortunate civilians of Gaza that will take the massive hit.
It's important to recognise that Hamas isn't 'the Palestinians'. Hamas is a relatively small group of terrorist fundamentalists who control the people of Gaza by force, and have now started a proper war with Israel.
Is anyone placed to help the Palestinians in Gaza? Will the rest of the Middle East sit on their hands and do nothing?
You have literally picked another photo of the exact same extremist bonkers fringe group. Look at the sign he is holding up
Any you've come up with the exact same interpretation. Jews must be pro Israel, because such and such in the pic is an extremist.
I did ask you to take note of the placards.
I would hate to see what your Google search term history looks like…
Simple, I'll tell you so you dont have to speculate or throw out more personal insults and attacks. I googled 'Jews against Zionism'
I know of this because pal Ralph is Jewish and he's often spoken on how detrimental Zionism is to his faith
But whatever. you knock yourself out with whatever interpretation you see fit.