[Closed] Amazon working conditions

Experts have told Panorama these ten-and-a-half-hour night shifts could breach the working time regulations because of the long hours and the strenuous nature of the work.

Barrister Giles Bedloe said: "If the work involves heavy physical and, or, mental strain then that night worker should not work more than eight hours in any 24-hour period

10.5 hours? We do 12 hours but usually run into 13 or 14 hours sometimes more. We can do 8 hours plus before our first break which will mean we will miss our second break.

The story has some credit but it does read like someone who hasn't done a physical job gets a bit tired on his first day and gets a bit stressed as he has targets to meet.

binners - Member

And this is news? I did warehouse jobs exactly like this 20 years ago. It was exactly the same then.

You had a handset giving you orders with seconds to respond and an audible buzzer every time you fail or get anything wrong? Spending your entire day under a nonstop series of countdown timers sounds ****ing horrible to me, your life becoming a quicktime event.

Basically, use robots or don't, don't try and make your staff into flesh robots.

But fixating on the shifts and the distances walked is wrong, it's not one thing that causes it to be a problem.

Yes, I did Konabunny. In fact, maybe I dreamt the whole thing.

I was earning what I suppose now would be considered minimum wage. Maybe less. But the point is that it was exactly the same as now. All the 'staff' were agency workers, so no holiday pay, no sick pay, and if you didn't work your ass off, you wouldn't have a job at the end of the day.

Its nowt new! as has been pointed out, this isn't just Amazon. Every warehouse in the country works like this, and has done for 25+ years. Some middle class BBC bed-wetter being forced to do it for a [i]whole day[/i], then bleating about how awful it is won't change a bloody thing

EDIT: Northwind - They may now have the technology to monitor you more effectively now, but as with the other things mentioned, its always been this way in this type of job. We'd get in and get handed a huge pile of orders, and a timescale to complete them in. Funnily enough, that didn't leave much time to sit and read poetry, or ponder life's subtle nuances.

They worked you like dogs, because they could. If you didn't measure up, they'd get someone else in tomorrow instead of you. And everyone knew it.

Sounds like my wife on a busy night shift of a surgical recovery ward.

Oh, wait no it doesn't.

Wife's shifts are 12 hours, are very mentally and physically demanding (think moving heavy patients, ensuring drugs which could kill are administered in the correct dosages etc), involve a lot of walking (ok maybe not 11 miles but them nurses don't half cover some distance), having to interact with patients, enough paperwork to fill a skip etc.

OK my wife gets paid a *bit* better but still...

OK my wife gets paid a *bit* better but still..

She is also a dedicated professional who has job security, a pension and I guess, a great deal of job satisfaction.

Completely different.

Besides, the point I was trying to make was if I wanted to earn minimum wage, I would work somewhere else.

You dont have to shop at amazon, just boycott them, and watch their profits tumble.

Yep, some hope of that.

Amazon provide jobs for people who want to and need to work, and provide a good service to us the customer.

Doesnt sound so bad. Used to work on big trucks delivering those plastic crates, we didn't have a beeping machine but we'd always split into two teams and do races to make it interesting. The supervisor counted each teams crates and shouted abuse at us if we came second. Looking back it was a good time and the low pay encouraged me to do some courses, move and get a better job. One of the best jobs we went on was an mod site with no lift so we had about 50 blokes leading from the truck up to the second floor... good craig and all that.

You dont have to shop at amazon, just boycott them, and watch their profits tumble.

Yep, some hope of that.

Amazon provide jobs for people who want to and need to work, and provide a good service to us the customer.

and if you are earning minimum wage you buy cheap because it is what you can afford. All well and good saying boycott the tax dodgers, but easier said than done.

Again, reading somee of the comments here I despair of humanity. What is this nmacho thing that some yuou have with wishing ever lower pay and conditions on you fellow people? It's an outrage, and it says a lot about the state of our nation that this abusive state of affairs is not only considered tolerable, but desirable.

It's easier to mouth off against the weakest most disadvantaged in society, they don't have the power to defend themselves never mind fight back.

What is this nmacho thing that some yuou have with wishing ever lower pay and conditions on you fellow people? It's an outrage, and it says a lot about the state of our nation that this abusive state of affairs is not only considered tolerable, but desirable.

It's exactly what our disgusting government is counting on.

I've done picking at the Evans Cycles warehouse (this was a good 15-18 years ago though). Was working at one of the London shops but due to short staffing, I was seconded down to the warehouse for a few days in the run-up to Christmas.

Wasn't a bad job to be honest, lots going on, loads of people and a generally good atmosphere - didn't have to deal with moaning customers for starters!. No active monitoring as such but you got a stack of orders and they were expected to be done.. There was time built in to allow you to get big/bulky items that required one of the trained guys with a forklift to fetch.

Other than that, conditions were similar - on your feet most of the day, not exactly earning £50k... I quite liked it but the nature of the job means staff turnover is very high since the majority are students or intentionally only doing it part-time. One guy there worked all hours, overtime, nights, the works, saved every penny for 8 months then went travelling for 4 months. Repeat the next year.

The point is that a large section of society just shrugs, and accepts this kind of thing as the norm, as it has been precisely that for 20 odd years. Long pre-dating Amazon, or internet home deliveries

What is quite telling is that there's also a section of society who never even noticed. For 20 years. And never gave a second thought to what the reality was of their cheap, home-delivered shopping. Modern Britain in a nutshell really, isn't it?

So… do I think the people who never noticed will care now? No. Do I expect warehouse workers working lives to change for the better? Hmmmmmm. Or are we just waiting for the next Tory think tank to suggest abolishing the minimum wage, to make our economy 'more competitive'. More competitive for who?

neilsonwheels - Member

Any of you lot ever worked in warehousing on a shop floor level.?

Puts his hand up 😉

Not for Amazon mind, but the hours, starting wage and distances I have to walk, sound similar.

I love it though, my shift fits in well with other work I do.

The first four weeks are tough on your feet and you are under pressure to be quick, WITHOUT making mistakes.

I did, once for a week, using my iphone, log how far I walked, managed to clock up 65 miles in five days, on a not so busy week, which amazed me tbh.

For me it the friends I work with that make it a great place to work, good banter, everyone helps muck in when there is a problem and considering there can be over a 100 of us on a shift we all get on very well.

Compared to my previous job (parkie in an inner city park) its so much easier than dealing with druggies, drunks and nutters, on a daily basis 😉

Binners, you keep saying it's been exactly like this for years, even though you've said up the page that the extra pressure of the constant short timescales is new. Make up your mind eh? There's a big difference between "Do X in 10 hours" and "Do X in 30 seconds, 1200 times a day". That's not how humans are wired.

I worked in a bed warehouse for 2 years after [s]finishing[/s] failing my A levels, I loved it, it was hard (order picking beds for ****s sake) but I lost all the weight I put on when I discovered beer, had a great time and met some good friends that I'm still in contact with 12-13 years later.

We didn't have the scanner beeping though, we had Cliff, with hinges tattooed on the inside of his elbows snarling at us to get the ****in job done. Weekly pay, one weeks notice, no sick pay, £4.50 an hour (at the time) During the January sales I once worked from 7am to 11:30pm with a 30 min lunch break and was back in at 7 the next day. Needed the over time to pay the bills then.

Got it on you today Northwind? Can you tell me where I said "the extra pressure of the constant short timescales is new"? Is your copy and paste broken?

Its always been the same fort a long time. Since we had the neo-liberal consensus that says its desirable to have a large pool of unskilled unemployed, bolstered further with cheap foreign labour, to keep those employed constantly insecure and anxious about their jobs, so not get chippy, and keep slogging away to bolster the enormous profits of rapacious corporates

If it helps… I blame Thatcher 😀

If it helps… I blame Thatcher

Sadly the madness didn't die with her, Cameroon and Gideon commissioned their millionaire chum Lord Beecroft to come up with some more ideas on screwing over workers:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9280473/Controversial-Beecroft-Report-on-employment-law-published-ahead-of-schedule-after-leak.html

binners - Member

Got it on you today Northwind? Can you tell me where I said "the extra pressure of the constant short timescales is new"?

Here:

They may now have the technology to monitor you more effectively now

HTH

Barrister Giles Bedloe said: "If the work involves heavy physical and, or, mental strain then that night worker should not work more than eight hours in any 24-hour period.

What a load of trollocks. What about all the Police, Doctors and Nurses etc who work 12 hr + shifts night on night, that have loads more mental stress in their jobs (not saying that Amazon workers do not)

Bloody claim culture.

Erm.... That's not the same thing at all, is it?

Whether it's a bleeping machine, or a bloke ticking your pick list off by hand, on a great big pile of printouts, the timescales are the same as they've always been. And the threats, if they're not met. Which is what I [i]actually[/i] said.

It's not the miles walked its.....'You have thirty five seconds to pick this parcel.. Beep..beep..beep..beep..beep..

Is this really any different to working on a production line where you have x seconds to get something done before the next one comes down the line?

I was earning what I suppose now would be considered minimum wage. Maybe less. But the point is that it was exactly the same as now. All the 'staff' were agency workers, so no holiday pay, no sick pay, and if you didn't work your ass off, you wouldn't have a job at the end of the day.

Me too. It's not really like what Amazon are doing. The fact that they treat their workers so badly and don't pay tax is why I refuse to buy anything from them.

Ransos - I'm not defending them. Perish the thought. I also have a no Amazon policy too. Never use them! The tax-dodging ****!!

What I'm saying is that if the beeping hand unit had been available 20 years ago, then every single worker, in every single warehouse in the UK would be walking around with one. And other than that the job is the same, but with even more insecurity, as it was 20 years ago

All well and good saying boycott the tax dodgers, but easier said than done.

you dont like what companies do hit them in the inly place they care - the wallet/profits.

Any of you lot ever worked in warehousing on a shop floor level.?

I packed seeds for a week as an illegal in a warehouse in Chicago.

I was the only English speaker on the factory floor.

And other than that the job is the same, but with even more insecurity, as it was 20 years ago

It's not much of a defence though - "other people are doing it/ would do it if they could..."

It sticks in my craw that this company treats and pays its workers badly, and contributes chuff all in tax.

It sticks in my craw that this company treats and pays its workers badly, and contributes chuff all in tax.

It avoids one particular and comparatively small tax, but still pays National Insurance for all its employees, VAT on it sales, blah blah blah.

It is a big deal, but certainly nowhere near as big as the Mail wants you to believe.

It is a big deal, but certainly nowhere near as big as the Mail wants you to believe.

I don't read the Mail so I've no idea what they want me to believe.

Not only do Amazon avoid a significant amount of tax, they also pay their workers badly (minimising NI) so we end up paying tax credits. They've also received several million in govt grants.

Why are we subsidising these shysters?

Maybe the researcher should do a day in the classroom. Lots of bells and insistent people who won't wait, lots of being on feet and thinking quickly, and usually a threat or refusal if you don't play nice. And after a day of that, you go home to do the preparation for round 2 the next day...

Why are we subsidising these shysters?

Not only do Amazon avoid a [s]significant[/s] comparatively small amount of tax, they also pay their workers [s]badly[/s] minimum wage (minimising NI) so we end up paying tax credits.

FTFY. 😉

FTFY.

Comparative to what? The national debt?

If you don't think the minimum wage constitutes being badly paid, I suggest you try living on it. Even shelf stacking in my local Aldi is better paid than that...

I for one accept amazon for what it is.
A cheap online seller. I use it weekly, buy many dvd's and cd's. I bought the Gerber from the PSA on here.
It's fantastic they can keep their prices low for the consumer yet employ so many.
Long may they last.

It avoids one particular and comparatively small tax,

but still pays National Insurance for all its employees,

VAT on it sales, blah blah blah.

It is a big deal,

but certainly nowhere near as big as the Mail wants you to believe.

I dont think objecting to amazons working practices makes you a DM reader it just means you are not a heartless ****

Comparative to what? The national debt?

Comparative to the other tax they do pay. Do you honestly think if they paid nothing they'd be allowed to trade here? Even in these days of Dave's mates getting deals, there are still some rules to be played by.

Don't get me wrong - I don't agree with it, but you also have to be realistic. Companies are now bigger and more influential than governments, which is scary. Don't like a company? Then hit them with what you can - your and other people's buying power.

I dislike Nestlé and won't buy their products. This is one household in millions. But I share this and I'm not alone.

I dont think objecting to amazons working practices makes you a DM reader it just means you are not a heartless ****

😆

At the end of the day there are plenty of other low-paid warehouse jobs out there - Amazon does not have the monopoly. One of the good things with capitalism (and I don't consider myself a capitalist) is that there's choice. Don't like your job? Then go to an agency and get another.

It got more grants than it paid Corporation tax and its turnover is £4 billion UK sales only - corporation tax £2.4 million .
The loss is substantial despite the "small" claims you make

With regard to that, how much would it cost HMRC to chase it up? And then how much would the UK lose if Amazon shifted all its warehouses to Spain, sacking all its employees and shutting its UK office?

It's a balancing act and, like I said above, companies are now bigger and more influential than governments, which is scary. They can hold governments to ransom.

binners - Member

Erm.... That's not the same thing at all, is it?

It is, though. You keep saying it's exactly the same, even while knowing it isn't.

Comparative to the other tax they do pay. Do you honestly think if they paid nothing they'd be allowed to trade here? Even in these days of Dave's mates getting deals, there are still some rules to be played by.

Such as VAT? Paid by the customer. Then let's look at the tax subsidies we give to their poorly-paid employees.

Don't get me wrong - I don't agree with it, but you also have to be realistic. Companies are now bigger and more influential than governments, which is scary. Don't like a company? Then hit them with what you can - your and other people's buying power.

Such as VAT? Paid by the customer.

This is the customer buying from Amazon (that has small margins to allow selling good so cheaply and relies on bulk to make a profit)? OK, but while those goods are bought in the UK from a UK-based company that VAT (20% of purchase price - no small amount) will go into the government coffer. If Amazon left the UK then that's a lot of potential tax gone in one fell swoop - there's no guarantee that the sales Amazon would have made would be made elsewhere.

Then let's look at the tax subsidies we give to their poorly-paid employees.

Let's look at them. Got any examples?

I've already said that I don't buy from them. Companies are only powerful because we allow them to be.

Well at least we agree on something. 😉

Unfortunately if we only bought products from companies that paid their employees well and only bought products from completely ethical companies we would not have a great deal of choice of where to buy from.

For example there is no point buying an iProduct from anywhere however they treat their staff as the Foxconn employees who build the iThingymajigs are treated appallingly.

I don't see what Amazon are doing as unusual or unfair. When I worked in a call centre we had to take x calls an hour, were monitored all the time (because of the phone system we had they could and did even listen to the office chit chat between calls).

We would get a manager interrupting the call if they felt we had been on too long, every key press was recorded, breaks timed to the second etc.