the laws of physics show that speed has nothing to do with preventing the crash in the first place
No I think they do. Because the faster you are going the more time and space you need to stop.
But it's not just about simple physics, it's about the reality of cars and humans operating them. The faster cars are going, the smaller the effective gaps are between them. One thing that pisses me off is people approaching roundabouts too fast, because they are just driving around too quickly generally. A space that would have been plenty big enough to pull out into now no longer is because of the excessive speed of the approaching car. Given that humans are human, people will pull out anyway when they see a gap, and the faster driver is now going to experience someone 'pulling out in front' of them, without realising that their own speed has contributed to that problem.
Sensible speed should be a habit. In other words, chill the **** out. If you are allowed to drive at 100mph at certain times, then 70mph will seem incredibly slow and make people feel impatient, so they'll want to go faster all the time.
Dropping 30 to 20 and 40 to 30 and 60 to 50 would save more lives, motorways are the last problem.
What needs to happen is a fundamental shift in the atttitude to cars and their status. Cars are a real menace there are too many of them, they are to powerful, to fast, to big and too distracting to drive. Ditch all the info-tainment crap on the dash board, the sat nav and render phones unusable in the car while moving.
Lovely sane driving recently include some one approaching a bend with a phone held up in front of his face.
Being overtaken in a urban congested 30mph zone while I was doing 30 mph.
Drivers are out of control and given a portion of the population being unable to resist behaving like a petulant teenager are causing problems.
Lower all speed limits and enforce them. Reduce distractions and the roads might be safer.
There will be no change, instead of imprisoning dangerous drivers the govt are victimising just stop fuel protestors.
Being overtaken in a urban congested 30mph zone while I was doing 30 mph.
This has nothing to do with the car, and everything to do with prevailing attitudes in society.
But cars are sold on images of speed uncongested open streets and rural roads they are seen going fast and free, they are selling a dream and we get to cope with the reality.
This is reinforced by programs like Top Gear etc when actually they are causing polution, danger to other people and the climate we need a shift in attitudes.
It needs people to protest and shift attitudes but the motoring lobby are powreful and have deep pockets.
This forum has about 20 posts on a cycling inferstucture structure artic;e and thousands on motoring threads, grrr
Of course it is. That’s what these threads always do
I think that we're in agreement about inappropriate speed and that it's clearly a bigger problem if on the excessive side, but I'd missed an earlier post by you
"None of this gets taken into consideration." Absolutely. In an ideal world everyone would consider their manner of driving and speed limits could be deleted. Unfortunately society reflects that the publicity is about the "Fatal Four" and providing that you're not drunk/drugged, not distracted, wearing a seatbelt and not speeding then their perception is that other offences are somehow less important, which isn't the aim at all.
I don't bother counting the number of motorists overtaking me while I'm cycling towards a left-hand bend with insufficient view any more, but they all overtake within the speed limit and the 40mph speed differential isn't the issue either. You've already referred to the offences, but dangerous, careless and inconsiderate were on my list as alternatives
It’s really not hard. Discreet (so it’s not unsightly) average speed cameras on every single residential road in the country. For the most part: hacking solved and speeding solved.
That coupled with cars that are designed to accelerate significantly slower than they are capable of today. No one needs more than 150bhp. Cars [power/acceleration as an extension of your own brain] make people feel athletic and powerful - that’s *BAD*
edit: forgot to say, all residential areas blanket 20mph. It’s safer, quieter, much much much more enticing for cycling, smoother / faster, easier to cross, blah blah blah
You're tackling the wrong problem. What is needed is a VAST improvement in driving skills and decision making behind the wheel. Make having a driving licence harder to get on skill levels, and force regular reassessment. But the Daily Heil readership that Governments unfortunately listen to would be up in arms about it (because it would remove sh1t drivers of BMWs, Audis and other such middle class middle England gammon ****ermobiles from the road where they currently have a seemingly god given right).
I know this because I’ve had to tell this story a number of times on here.
You have. And I sincerely have every sympathy for your loss, it must have been horrific. But a physical 70mph limiter - the point of this thread - would have changed nothing, nor would it have stopped a pissed cretin from driving into your house.
Because the faster you are going the more time and space you need to stop.
By that logic, The more time and space you have to stop, the faster you can go. 😁
What is needed is a VAST improvement in driving skills and decision making behind the wheel. Make having a driving licence harder to get on skill levels, and force regular reassessment.
Bingo.
No one needs more than 150bhp.
No-one needs a considerably lower figure than that. 1hp transport exists, it's called a horse. 😁
Back in the day I had a Cavalier SRi. It was considered a fast car and it was IIRC 130bhp. The car I drive today is a mundane Seat Arona, it's a mini-SUV version of the Ibiza and its 1L engine kicks out 110PS. Sure, cars have got heavier, power-to-weight and all that, but if you're arguing about "need" my first car was 54bhp (and I was still dropping BMWs at traffic lights).
I'd like to see speed limits on roundabouts! Some appear to be designed to allow traffic on the major routes to treat them as a race track while requiring multiple Gs of acceleration from drivers coming from minor routes.
Cougar wrote
That’s shit. How’s he doing?
He’s recovering well, thank you for asking. Had emergency surgery that night and was in for a couple of weeks.
And I sincerely have every sympathy for your loss, it must have been horrific. But a physical 70mph limiter – the point of this thread – would have changed nothing, nor would it have stopped a pissed cretin from driving into your house.
with how the thread is progressing some sort of limiter that takes road type and condition in to account would stop these sorts of things from happening or potentially vastly lower the outcomes to bruising in the former and cracked render in the latter. Just like when a crazy old lady slowly reversed in to my house because the camera told her it was okay 😂
Speed limits don’t work, some people are utter throbbers and I hope one day we have technology that removes the need for the first and mitigates the second. Imagine a car that locks in the driver and then calls the police if they’re pissed. That would be great.
What is needed is a VAST improvement in driving skills and decision making behind the wheel. Make having a driving licence harder to get on skill levels, and force regular reassessment.
Is the answer, together with enough traffic police to enforce the current rules. Never going to happen though.
TBH I’m in favour of GPS based speed limiters across all new vehicles (underpinning maps/data need to be maintained of course) and use of those limiters being the “expected standard” for all drivers so it holds you to 30 in a 30, 40 in a 40 and so on.
You can buy a GPS blocker for under £10, used by lots of people with Black Box policies. A GPS signal is incredibly weak so really easy to do.
We have the rules in place to prevent a lot of accidents happening, what we don't have is effective policing of the roads. It's also actually rather hard to lose your 'entitlement' to drive, with even 12+ points rarely leading to a loss of your license due to Hardship exemptions. That absolutely has to change, and that's said by someone who relies on their license to earn a living.
May be if you get convicted of speeding or other driving offences you should be suspended from driving until you retake your test.
Not a punishment just to make sure you can remember how to drive safely.
Perhaps it's some drivers who need chipping so they can't exceed 30mph.
Speed limiters are a blunt tool I agree, but if geo-fencimg can be done correctly then I can't see it doing any harm.
Maybe we should geo-fence slightly above the speed limit for reasons discussed so people could only tear through a 30mph zone at max of 45 or someting if they really felt the need to on an emergency.
I don't think that would really hurt and may well prevent a fair few incidents.
It’s not a golden bullet by any argument though, as said, a vehicle being driven recklessly under the speed limit is probably much more dangerous than a vehicle going slightly too fast but with a very conciensious driver.
We've all seen oblivious drivers not concentrating on a daily basis I'm sure.
To be honest I think the only final solution to the human error factor is fully autonomous vehicles.
I think any in between measures are just going to help a little bit in some circumstances.
What is needed is a VAST improvement in driving skills and decision making behind the wheel. Make having a driving licence harder to get on skill levels, and force regular reassessment.
I don't know why they don't implement that. As long as those already with licenses were free from restriction I'm sure it would be a vote winner.
What is needed is a VAST improvement in driving skills and decision making behind the wheel. Make having a driving licence harder to get on skill levels, and force regular reassessment.
I don't think many disagree with this, but in reality if you're banking on driving standards improving, I fear you'll be waiting a very long time. It's a much more difficult problem to solve, and in a society where owning a vehicle has virtually become a requirement for the minimum standard of living for the majority of people, it's a political disaster. I think we're already in the mindset of managing the danger through technology.
Interesting thread having just spent a week in the fatherland of the automobile (Germany). A strange contrast between the all out speed and driving gods on the autobahn (speed limits published and widely ignored) and the country roads, towns etc which are fairly bike/ pedestrian friendly, 20kph limits etc.
I can’t remember the stats, but believe they have fewer accidents on the autobahn, but higher % of fatalities. Obviously not ideal, and would love to know how this translates to pedestrians/bikes in urban areas as a contrast to UK.
Their society is very driving focused, and rules of the road quite well policed by Polizei and other Audi/BMW drivers horns/ flashing lights. They seem to value driving, and (as a passenger) it’s very rare to see drivers doing other things at the wheel (makeup etc is a common sight on UK motorways).
Thanks for the primary school physics lesson there. What’s your point exactly?
My point is we are focusing on what happens after the impact rather than looking to prevent the impact. Probably because it’s easier to just impose speed limits and make money from them rather than actually prevent crashes in the first place
Because the faster you are going the more time and space you need to stop
Very true. But that assumes you are crashing into a fixed object. People crash into parked cars at walking pace in car parks. Are you suggesting the crash wouldn’t happen if they went any slower. If the object hit is moving then you are just as likely not to crash if you were going faster as if you were going slower.
The problem is poor driving, poor hazard perception by both drivers and pedestrians. How many close encounters do you have on your bike with those plugged into headphones wandering around more interested in their phones than anything else
I have always thought this. Ulez seems to be a tax for everyone who isn’t rich.
Put it on fuel, use more pay more.
i can’t wait for auto speed restrictions electronically based on the speed limit. Traffic near me in KT7 is miserable
Why is that the starting point? Because it’s easy?
Sure. Nothing wrong with an easy solution to one problem. Once you've done it, it lets you solve other, more complicated ones.
My point is we are focusing on what happens after the impact rather than looking to prevent the impact. Probably because it’s easier to just impose speed limits and make money from them rather than actually prevent crashes in the first place
You’ll never prevent all the impacts hence why reducing the speed at which they happen is a great starting point. It reduces the chances of serious injury and death. I also fail to see how making money from speed cameras is an issue.
Five pages on the simple premis of ensuring people don't brake the law
Seeing as the argument seems to be that the motorway speed limit is arbitrary and 50 years out of date, and that most deaths are caused by speeding in urban areas.. how about doing away with the mythical 100mph driving ban and bringing it in at a much lower level. 30mph in a 20mph has serious outcome implications in the event of a pedestrian impact.
Surely speed limit +30mph is irrelevant
Track days? Keep your inefficient car purely for the track, then you can fit stupidly loud exhausts, non road legal whatever and inappropriate-for-the-road tyres etc without worrying abotu an MOT. Either store it at the track or trailer it there and back.
I know some guys who do just that with their track bikes and am aware of a couple of folks with cars that do the same – worked out cheaper to do that and they then didnt have to drive a car that they’d compromised for track performance on the road
Nothing wrong with a dedicated track car, that's an option. But not particularly a good one for most track dayers. It means two cars rather than one which is not very efficient. Trailering it is even worse. Circuits won't store your car cost effectively either. A trackable road car can be very efficient. My JCW returns 45mpg on the road, is only 1200kg, wears AD08s which are excellent both on the road and on track and are MOT friendly. Track cars rarely run loud exhausts as that will fail noise monitors.
Omelette / eggs.
No need for an omelette so no need to break any eggs.
But I can see why you say that if track days are of no interest to you.
Surely speed limit +30mph is irrelevant
Would you say that doing a ton on a motorway and doing 50 in a 20 are comparable?
I don't know if it still holds true, but the ACPO guidelines for prosecution used to be a percentage (10%+2) rather than an absolute figure.
But not particularly a good one for most track dayers.
There's about 40 million automobiles in the UK, of which 2.3 million were new in the last year. It'd be idiotic to put the interests of a few track day hobbyists ahead of everyone else.
There’s about 40 million automobiles in the UK, of which 2.3 million were new in the last year. It’d be idiotic to put the interests of a few track day hobbyists ahead of everyone else.
Thankfully no one is proposing to do that and I am sure there will solutions where track day enthusiasts' interests won't be incompatible with everyone's else as is currently the case.
Nice strawman though.
I don’t know if it still holds true, but the ACPO guidelines for prosecution used to be a percentage (10%+2) rather than an absolute figure.
ACPO is no more. Some modern speed devices are incredibly accurate, the days of pointing a hand-held radar that you'd checked with a 30mph tuning fork tapped on the heel of your shoe are few and far between.
Some forces don't publicise their policies and in theory could use the manufacturer's recommendations, but you don't know because it isn't publicised. There are also non-police speed cameras on motorways (168 in 2020) some of which will eventually record red-X offences as well
https://www.confused.com/car-insurance/guides/speed-camera-tolerances
Would you say that doing a ton on a motorway and doing 50 in a 20 are comparable?
As a broad principle no, but that's not the argument I'm making. I previously said that I would reduce the 70mph limit to reduce pollution and potentially reduce congestion.
There's a car sitting on my drive way that I'm fairly sure my 13 year old could drive semi safely on a motorway with about an hours training. It'll stop him changing lanes randomly and even brake for him.
Driving in an urban environment is a different thing altogether, and that's where I think enforcement and speed reduction should be targeted.
There's a much wider argument about the generally toxic relationship we all have with cars that really needs reset. But I don't know if I have the energy to get into that on a Sunday morning.
It's not really the relationship with cars that's the direct issue, it's just a symptom of a bigger problem.
Everyone wants and expects everything yesterday. We go round life rushing from one moment to the next feeling like we HAVE to be somewhere and as such get stressed out over any minor inconvenience. Plus driving is not in any way pleasurable due to congestion and generally poor driving standards, you just want it over and done with.
My rational for it is no, on basis that, as was brought up within about 2 posts, sometime speed is required to overtake safely
Now the counter argument to that is, well don’t overtake then if it’s not safe to do so. And I’m 100% in agreement with that logic.
But the issue is that the roads are clearly full of horrifically bad drivers and selfish baw bags. Some people will just make a misjudgment, others are impatient knobends who think they have a Divine right to be in front of you. People are still going to overtake, and if they do and I’m coming the other way, I want them to be off my side of the road as quickly as possible
I say the faster you go, the less time there is for an accident
Could I just take this opportunity to mention that on my last two rides this week I have been followed by 2 different Ferrari drivers who followed politely until a sensible overtaking point. I gave them a nice wave and a thumbs up and was rewarded by that lovely sound. Yesterday's was an 812 so that fabulous V12 sound.
So it's not necessarily fast cars that are the issue, it's the nobs driving.
I say the faster you go, the more opportunities there are for an accident
There, that’s better. Humans aren’t generally designed to tool about at high speeds. Not what our eyes or reflexes are for. Reaction times, stopping distanced etc. you get the picture. I know you were probably taking the piss or it was a poor attempt at trolling.
Humans aren’t generally designed to tool about at high speeds
But I thought we were all driving gods on STW.
So it’s not necessarily fast cars that are the issue, it’s the nobs driving.
absolutely. These same morons will try to overtake you regardless of speed limits, restricted speeds, or anything else. Driving down the A9 today, which has average camera limit of 60 and you saw the usual clowns trying to overtake at every opportunity. Yet by the time you’d get to a dual carriageway section of the road 3 miles later they would literally be 5 cars and less than 100 m ahead of you
There, that’s better. Humans aren’t generally designed to tool about at high speeds. Not what our eyes or reflexes are for. Reaction times, stopping distanced etc. you get the picture. I know you were probably taking the piss or it was a poor attempt at trolling
Was this quote copied and pasted from 1890!? Perhaps we need a man with a flag walking in front of all cars!
d) The people who most need limiting would bypass the system and to hell with the consequences. There are balaclava-clad youths riding on the roads round here on motorbikes with no licence plates, often up on one wheel. Do you suppose they’d give the slightest of **** about derestricting a speed-limited bike?
Yep you’ve got laws for all this stuff,just needs enforcing.
There seems to be a lack of interest in enforcing stuff for some unknown reason.
Oddly I was in Benidorm to recharge my Englishness this weekend and the there is some very interesting road layout stuff happening, it’s well mad but I kinda like it.
This is actually some sort of junction complete with a seat 🙂
