[Closed] Advanced driving

Out of those offences, how many were you actually, physically stopped for by a real person?

Like joining a queue, you 'collect' the traffic behind by slowing early thereby reducing that chance of someone crashing into you to almost 0

Looking for escape routes from those rolling back/approaching from behind

Turning right - keep the wheels straight so a crash from behind doesn't turn into a side impact with oncoming traffic

Adjusting speed around a bend - if the point the verge disappears starts getting closer to you, slow up, if its extending away, speed up.

Aren't these classed as "just driving" ?

I guess some people naturally have a better sense of awareness than others, and a better sense of speed/dangers/hazards/etc.

My brother-in-law hates driving, and I won't get in a car with him - he falls under the "very slow, zero awareness of others, and always-thinks-hes-in-the-right" group. The person in the middle lane, doing 50? That's him. The person going 10mph around a roundabout? That's him.

perhaps, but I doubt it. I have driven with somewhere near average ability for 25 plus years, have had 2 SP30's in the distant past and a speed awareness course (34 in a 30 in Morpeth) last year and do around 20k miles PA in a modern diesel company car that can go quite fast I believe.

So you sometimes break the law just like most other drivers do then.

And whoever said "advanced driving course = must be breaking the law" is a little out of touch.

You don't need to go above the speed limit to engage in some "advanced" driving.

moshimonster - Member
perhaps, but I doubt it. I have driven with somewhere near average ability for 25 plus years, have had 2 SP30's in the distant past and a speed awareness course (34 in a 30 in Morpeth) last year and do around 20k miles PA in a modern diesel company car that can go quite fast I believe.
So you sometimes break the law just like most other drivers do then.

absolutely, yes, always through distraction, tiredness or some other reason which is entirely unjustifiable and hence punishable by law, fair cop. But I wouldn't do it intentionally, to 'make progress' or whatever the phrase is, for the simple reasons of decreased safety to me and others and the real likelihood of getting caught, fined, whatever. I need to have a driving licence to provide for my family and live life as I do. Why risk it to save a few minutes on a journey ?

They really are the Captain Sensibles of the motoring world

Where do I sign up?

That's fair enough, but I would argue from what you've said that I'm probably a safer driver than you despite driving faster on certain roads. In other words you cannot say that someone is driving safely just because they don't break the speed limit - except when they do it accidentally 😉

iainc - Member

perhaps, but I doubt it.

Ah, so we're lying? We're both posting personal experiences from advanced driving/riding tuition, run by the police! And it's by no means uncommon.

Moshie - you may well be safer, yes, I don't know, I don't think I am anything other than average in driving ability.

Northwind - no, what I meant is that I doubted I needed a reality check, not that you and the other poster were lying. As I said, hopefully some Police forumites will clarify police attitude to speeding in the open road environment, not on a police led training course.

Ah, fair enough, I had read it the other way- apologies for that. (my course was in an open road environment btw)

I did it. Work paid. I recommend it. I feel safer as I'm more aware of what is going on around me, as well as a long way in front of me. I noticed the my top speed went down (to the speed limit) but my average speed went up, so I get places faster, but much less stressed.

I did it because I was get pissed off and doing silly overtakes.

It is hard to pass though, which numerous colleagues have confirmed. It will not reduce your car insurance.

Northwind, no probs, my wording was ambiguous anyway !

iainc - Member
really ? so the police will turn a blind eye to speeding ? I didnt know that.

The point was about briefly exceeding the legal limit whilst overtaking. Assuming you were driving in a competent and appropriate fashion, i do not believe a police car would stop and prosecute you for a brief, non excessive speed excursion during an overtake that they physically witnessed. Ie. 60mph limit, van doing 45-50mph. Long, clear stretch of road, without junctions or other hazards, and a correctly performed overtake, say briefly touching 75mph as you pass the van, and once you pass you settle back to around 60mph. No way would they pull you ime.

For all the people who claim that somehow speeding is morally wrong, tell me how you choose at what speed you travel everywhere?

Remember, when the, entirely arbitrary legal "limits" were set, this was the state of the art in passenger car engineering:

[img] [/img]

And whilst the person driving the car maybe hasn't changed, the vehicles we drive on a daily basis have changed beyond recognition.

Here's good ol Jezza to explain:

😉

I've done IAM and our local group defiantly didn't allow speeding.

It's very useful. I'm a Driving Instructor and the training I'd received wasn't half as good on planning etc as the IAM course.

Their are some right pompous so and so's on the group, but go with an open mind and you will learn lots.

The Diamond test the OP linked to is more DVSA based i.e. Indicating all the time whereas the IAM is indicating if there are other road users to benifit from your signal. That really does raise your awareness.......

For all the people who claim that somehow speeding is morally wrong, tell me how you choose at what speed you travel everywhere?

Depends on road conditions, weather and the speed limit. But you knew that.

The problem I have is with the name. Advanced doesn't fit. Call it defensive, safe, pro-active, considerate or anything that implies it is of benefit to all rather than an excuse to go faster for petrolheads.

Another IAM recommendation here.
I did it probably 12 years ago, really useful for improved hazard perception, road positioning & generally encouraging a more positive attitude to driving.

2 hours in the car with a serving police advanced driving instructor certainly focuses the mind too!

Kudos to the OP for being open minded enough to accept the feedback about his driving and consider doing something to improve it.

Drac
For all the people who claim that somehow speeding is morally wrong, tell me how you choose at what speed you travel everywhere?
Depends on road conditions, weather and the speed limit. But you knew that.

Fair enough.

Take the example of my local ring road. It's a lit dual carriageway, with central reservation and full crash barriers. It has no "side" junctions onto it, except at major roundabouts, which are around 1 to 2 km apart. In good conditions and with reasonable traffic flow, what speed would you chose to drive down it??

What's the speed limit sign say, Max?

Speed cameras on the Leicester ring road reduced a few deaths a year to zero which suggests that slowing the traffic at selected points had the desired effect.

my top speed went down (to the speed limit) but my average speed went up

Very interesting!

Speed cameras on the Leicester ring road reduced a few deaths a year to zero which suggests that slowing the traffic at selected points had the desired effect.

I guess the race between the innumerable sets of traffic lights was part of the problem? They should stick a few more on the A47 :/

Have a look on the internet and see if any 'performance driver training' companies are around in your area and have a chat with them about a day of driving. They would happily knock the worst habits out and show you some techniques that help

I got some pointers when I went on a holiday where there were a lot of drivers and going a fair way down france; found out afterwards rhe fella giving tips was the driver for the governor of the Bank of England 🙂 just doing 'scan the road' and 4exits made a big difference

Real-life, flesh and blood traffic cops are fine with a bit of speeding, if in their judgement you were driving/riding safely in my experience.

Indeed some seem to actually enjoy a bit of speed 😯 , one time I was riding 2 up back from Derbyshire and as I passed the Police headquarters a motorcycle cop pulled out behind me. Cue some textbook riding on my part, when we got to the national speed limit he had had enough and came steaming past, so I tucked in behind as you do.

He checked his mirrors, and we 'made progress' at exactly twice the speed limit for the next 5 miles until he turned off, with a nod exchanged. Seems he thought there was more to life than bleating on about speed limit adherence...

On the Bikesafe course I did (run by the Police) I got told off for legality. "I don't want to see you riding like you normally would when there's a copper behind you, I want to see how you actually ride."

Edukator
What's the speed limit sign say, Max?

For the last 15 years, 60mph has been deemed to be a suitable limit.

Last week, a blanket 40mph limit came into force.

Exactly zero motorists are complying with the stupidly low limit (put in place as a knee jerk reaction to a pedestrian death (drunk person, vaulted crash barriers, rather than use the footbridge that was less than 100M from where they crossed, and was hit and killed by am HGV) (which incidentally will still kill you stone dead at "just" 40mph.....)

As a result, this is re-enforcing in every single drivers subconscious, that speed limits can be ignored, or are inappropriate in general (which they are not). So, slowly, but surely, we are loosing the ability to advise motorists to REAL dangers, by using a low limit only where necessary............

Edukator

Speed cameras on the Leicester ring road reduced a few deaths a year to zero which suggests that slowing the traffic at selected points had the desired effect.

Personally, i have no issues with speed cameras, as the only people they catch speeding are people not paying attention anyway.

However, you cannot unfortunately just say "speed cameras reduced deaths", there is still no actual statistical proof of this. Overall, except for 2011, road deaths in the uk have fallen year on year for the last approx 50 years. Over this time, our cars have become enormously safer, our roads safer, average speeds have fallen due to traffic density, and many many other factors. Whilst speed cameras undoubtedly prevent some crashes from being more serious in specific camera locations, there is no data (yet) to suggest they affect the overall death rate on their own. Certainly, i've never yet seen the situation where other drivers don't simply slow down whilst passing the fixed camera, and speed up again within 100m of passing it.......

My only real gripe with the course was that you are expected to stick rigidly to the speed limits

Hmm and yet I was told to 'go with the flow'

Take the example of my local ring road. It's a lit dual carriageway, with central reservation and full crash barriers. It has no "side" junctions onto it, except at major roundabouts, which are around 1 to 2 km apart. In good conditions and with reasonable traffic flow, what speed would you chose to drive down it??

Is it a built up area or is it in area surrounded by fields?

There's similar roads like that in areas up here, they vary between 40, 50 and 70 depending on how many houses and such are around it. There's a large area around the Metro Centre reduced to 50 because of the amount of traffic when it's busy. It's frustrating when it's quiet late at night or earlier hours. However, as it works well during the peak times, have an alternating speed limit depending on times would just confuse the situation.

Ah wait just spotted this:

Last week, a blanket 40mph limit came into force.

Exactly zero motorists are complying with the stupidly low limit (put in place as a knee jerk reaction to a pedestrian death (drunk person, vaulted crash barriers, rather than use the footbridge that was less than 100M from where they crossed, and was hit and killed by am HGV) (which incidentally will still kill you stone dead at "just" 40mph.....

Seems sensible and doubt it's a knee jerk to one incident that'll be your perception of it. Have you contacted the authorities to find out why it's so or just taking a random guess?

Over this time, our cars have become enormously safer, our roads safer, average speeds have fallen due

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/06/road-deaths-serious-injuries-rise-experts-cuts-blame

But now rising again. Lots of things interacting

Deaths are down long term - cars are much safer for their occupants but no safer for the vulnerable (peds and cyclists)
Medical care has improved - more people survive with "life changing injuries" (lose a leg? It's only a flesh wound)
Rates of cycling and walking have fallen significantly over time (recent upsurge in cycling is localised and tiny. Weekend leisure cycling not material in terms of total number of journeys) with all the knock on impacts for public health.

Making the roads safer by removing walking as an option it's not a success.

https://twitter.com/aseasyasriding/status/540089757217603584

Personally, i have no issues with speed cameras, as the only people they catch speeding are people not paying attention anyway.

Except when the sneaky bastards hide Truvelos round corners, anyway. Other than that I'd totally agree.

Some of the worst drivers I know have IAM advanced driving training, which combined with a fair bit of arrogance around their "advanced" qualifications puts me off. I did some advanced motorcycle training with Rospa and I thought there approach was better, however I've no experience of any car driver training they do.

Some of the worst drivers I know have don't have IAM advanced driving training, which combined with a fair bit of arrogance around their "non advanced" qualifications means I'm pleased I have an advanced driving qualification.

Some of the worst drivers I know have don't have IAM advanced driving training, which combined with a fair bit of arrogance around their "non advanced" qualifications means I'm pleased I have an advanced driving qualification.

Thanks for making my point!

I did my advanced driving course with work, honestly it was the toughest course I've ever done. However, the 4 weeks can pretty much be summed up with just, observation, anticipation and drive to the conditions. If everyone had better observation/anticipation skills and drove to the road conditions, there would be less accidents.

I'm fed up of ticking the "driver looked, but did not see" box after attending road traffic accidents.

However that said, some of the worst drivers I know, have also done their advanced course :0(

Drive to arrive!

I'm pleased I have an advanced driving qualification.

Do you mention that to your car insurance people? I haven't, as I heard a rumour that it might actually increase premiums!

The Diamond test the OP linked to is more DVSA based i.e. Indicating all the time whereas the IAM is indicating if there are other road users to benifit from your signal. That really does raise your awareness.......

This the one that shows how IAM works - pretty much by wrote - the system -
if you use your indicators when the IAM observer thinks it was not needed - then you will be marked down - unless you can justify your actions - ie "other road user" its all designed to ensure you observe - but sadly bad practice as if for ANY reason you did not "observe" the pedestrian/cyclist night time car without lights etc - then you will be making unpredictable change of direction, saying - oh it was my fault for not observing enough after the problem does not justify neglecting to signal your intentions.

It bugs me and hence I cannot get the IAM observer in our office to discuss it at all , I know they think that by making the decision whether or not to indicate is a kind of test of observation for every change of direction - but
they cannot cope with the concept of the unknown or sudden change of circumstances at all.

sorry bit long - but it bugs me

It bugs me and hence I cannot get the IAM observer in our office to discuss it at all , I know they think that by making the decision whether or not to indicate is a kind of test of observation for every change of direction - but
they cannot cope with the concept of the unknown or sudden change of circumstances at all.

I agree and always thought that was a dodgy practice. You should of course be observant, but always indicate regardless in my book. I don't see any downside to indicating at all.

The problem I have is with the name. Advanced doesn't fit. Call it defensive, safe, pro-active, considerate or anything that implies it is of benefit to all rather than an excuse to go faster for petrolheads.

I agree with the naming misfit, but IAM = petrolheads I really don't think so!

Nor me, moshimonster, it's the impression the word "advanced" creates.

moshimonster - Member

I agree with the naming misfit, but IAM = petrolheads I really don't think so!

I think they generally are, it's just a really different tribe of petrolhead.

moshimonster - Member

I agree and always thought that was a dodgy practice. You should of course be observant, but always indicate regardless in my book. I don't see any downside to indicating at all.

How it was explained to me, is that it's basically a hack- looking and then deciding whether or not to indicate forces observation and thought (also useful from an observer's point of view I reckon!). I can see the sense in that, though I don't think it's useful for me personally and I can see downsides to it.

and I can see downsides to it.

You can do all the observational stuff and still indicate anyway. That eliminates the obvious downside of not indicating when you happen to have missed something (because you are human).

moshimonster - Member

You can do all the observational stuff and still indicate anyway.

Yup, exactly- but the difference between can, and have to, is pretty big.

There's a balance of benefits thing here... I feel like I have pretty good obs, years of urban pushbike and motorbike riding pretty much takes away any choice in the matter! So if you're already observing well, or if you're a person that will take on the lesson well, then the don't indicate schtick probably isn't useful. But it's not really for you- it's a tool to help get people who don't have good obs, to develop them, and if need be to force them.

So you can argue that it falls down, because it treats everyone the same and could be a medication with detrimental side-effects, for an ailment you don't have. But you can also say, maybe on balance giving everyone the medicine has positive effects. I don't know which is right but I can see both arguments.

So if you passed your IAM, would you continue to only indicate when you thought it was necessary?

Well argued points here - I can understand the IAM method/reasoning medicine ,
sadly I think the medicine is taken after the symptoms have been cured.. addiction and long term side effects .
I have never asked about the indicator thing in urban verses rural locations
I guess its normally busy enough during the day to force the indicate , its at night when there are very few folks around that I imagine all these IAM folks swerving around without obvious reason .
I am not going to ask our observer its too much bother.

Everyone could do with an independent assessment of their driving- even a friend could interject/give pointers from observing. The problem with a friend is no bloke likes his driving or lovemaking critised. Is IAM the right way? Who knows, I don't agree with wearing a badge on your car though as some sort of medal/righteous-show. I've seen IAM-badged cars middle-laning on the motorway before.

OP- What specifically was pointed out about your driving?

As driving (very expensive) prototype vehicles is part of my job, we have to have a driver assessment/coaching every 2 years and it really is brilliant. It's just enough to knock off the bad habits everyone picks up and give you a good chance to re-assess your own driving. We use this lot:

[url= http://www.catdrivertraining.co.uk/ ]CAT Driver Training[/url]

Highly reccomend them. The instructors will pick you up on bad habits but not to the point of nitpicking - If it's an unsafe habit you'll get the 'correct' way hammered home, but if it is just a difference to what they do (e.g. the indiciator thing above) then as long as you are shown to be safe whilst doing it then all is good.

The additional roadcraft they teach does have an element of 'making progress' but only to the point of getting you to be able to drive safely and legally without having to drive 10mph below the limit. All of the 'making progress' stuff is actually more about observation, road positioning, and escape routes than it is about driving fast.

I'd definitely reccomend a refresher/advanced course of some sort as you really can see where you've picked up bad habits and hopefully get rid of them. I'm certainly not claiming to be a driving god after having done their courses, but I do find myself driving 'better' on the roads (which I appreciate is massively subjective).