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anyway – enough derailing and this discussion never goes anywhere good
Yep. 4 pages and it's back to the same old. In fact it was fairly close to being there by page 2
Op - Are the kids attending a normal school or home schooled? Sounds like they need some balance in their lives and hopefully they can get this at school. Their situation at home doesn’t sound healthy at all.
Funkmasterp, they are attending a local school, however they are taken out of any lesson that goes against their beliefs. She is down as a 'hard parent' by the school due to this. Apparently the older boy bit a class mate after said class mate apparently took the Lords name in vein. He is 7.
If their beliefs are so strong, then why can't they engage with other topics? I find it wrong to be completely dismissive of anything that doesn't conform to their held beliefs.
I cannot think of any secular group who do this – and its pervasive with the organised religions. Its so pervasive it becomes normalised. the only one I know of that forbids this is Sikhism. Maybe Buddism as well?
Current obvious elephant in the room is the Chinese Communist Party. I believe Marx and Lenin were quite clear on religion but it hasn't stopped all kinds of murderous controlling backwards crap.
I'm slightly confused by the magic thing, presumably 'miracles' are okay though?
I cannot think of any secular group who do this – and its pervasive with the organised religions. Its so pervasive it becomes normalised. the only one I know of that forbids this is Sikhism. Maybe Buddism as well?
Current obvious elephant in the room is the Chinese Communist Party. I believe Marx and Lenin were quite clear on religion but it hasn’t stopped all kinds of murderous controlling backwards crap.
It seems to me that it is more related to extreme viewpoints or beliefs, religious or otherwise. Any system be it religious, political or even movie fandom has extremes that aren’t healthy or just outright dangerous.
Member
Tomd
One of these proofs please
Kant's moral argument for the assumption of the existence of God.
Another interesting one is Kierkegaard who is paradoxically a Christian that believes in God but makes a fantastic reasoned argument about why trying to prove Gods existence is a waste of time.
I think what you're really asking for is a scientific proof of god, and there isn't one but that assumes that's the only proof and indeed that a proof is necessary or possible.
Sadly it isn't black/white. There are some brilliant modern atheist philosophers who I'm more inclined towards than the alternatives.
Funkmasterp, they are attending a local school, however they are taken out of any lesson that goes against their beliefs. She is down as a ‘hard parent’ by the school due to this. Apparently the older boy bit a class mate after said class mate apparently took the Lords name in vein. He is 7.
If their beliefs are so strong, then why can’t they engage with other topics? I find it wrong to be completely dismissive of anything that doesn’t conform to their held beliefs.
At least they are getting some influence outside of their home. What’s happening to the kids is the real tragedy here.
they are taken out of any lesson that goes against their beliefs.
sounds like the social services should get involved. Kids have a constitutional right to an education and parents can't decide what they are and are not taught. The parent also has a legal responsibility to ensure the child attends. The only thing you can opt out of IIRC is anything religious.
tomd - non of those are proofs and yes - a scientific proof is the only sort of proof. What other sort of proof is there
Funkmaster - Nope - its not just extreme views unless you consider the catholic church extreme or the COE
However - thread drift into areas that never ends well.
@cougar
Herbalife, Juiceplus...
I see a lot of similarities between religious zealots and MLM believers.
@the op...You could of course tell them that theyve barely scratched the surface...
The universe is a big place and certain souls choose to incarnate on this planet as a kind of 'fast-track' to developing their mental/ physical skills for use in future lives.
The real pros are the disabled/ mentally ill who have not only incarnated into this planets 'psychic-forge', but in doing so, help to keep our intersubjective reality 'stitched' together.
Maybe your over-zealous pals are trying to compensate for incarnating into humdrum and unchallenging lives, and displace their frustration onto their children. Or maybe their kids are more spiritually advanced and this foments jealousy in the parents.
They're but spectators in a magical universe and should quit whining and just get on with putting food on the table, etc.
Yet, theyll deify nailing some guy, nailed to a cross. That process would only stand him/ her in good stead in some future live. (Toleration of pain, empathy, mental acuity, psychic powers?)
Likewise, there's plenty plenty crackpots who torture children as being witches. All that's doing is boosting their abilities in their next live..."such a magnificent centre-forward, it's almost uncanny, etc"
How will the OP's pals react to that!
Kant’s moral argument for the assumption of the existence of God.
As an atheist, I genuinely find Kant’s moral theory patronising and insulting.
I cannot think of any secular group who do this
The world is full of secular groups who either try and control how we live, or try to persuade us certain lifestyles are superior. And much of their advice is probably quite sound, as is much religious advice.
Political parties of all shades are the obvious ones, then environmental groups, health organisations, pressure groups......even mountain bike fora on occasions!!
Can't say I have ever had a religious group that's tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of. Plenty I have disagreed with, but the same goes for all walks of life.
I've more contempt for the people who cancelled Futurama than any religion.
I kind of admire your absolute certainty on things like this TJ. It's funny though that often people who state that the the scientific method is superior to everything don't actually follow that method for almost all the decisions they make.
The world is full of secular groups who either try and control how we live, or try to persuade us certain lifestyles are superior.
Correct.
TJ's argument is flawed because he is conflating the attempts to control people's lives and religion. There are many religious groups who don't want to control people's lives, and many secular groups who do. In fact, any campaigning group is attempting to 'control' your life to the same extent, including humanitarian or environmental pressure groups. They are trying to tell us what to do, because they think they are onto something important. I happen to agree with some of them, of course. Then there are groups like US (or indeed any country's) conservatives, who want us all to feel the way they do. The fact that most of them they are religious cannot be identified as a causal link. And of course there are the conspiracy theorists.
You are demonstrating confirmation bias - ignoring the things that don't fit your hypothesis.
a scientific proof is the only sort of proof. What other sort of proof is there
How about a belief purely based upon what a person feels? Are you saying that should be dismissed as bunkum?
OK
I do not want to really continue this discussion but a lot of the religious interference in secular life becomes normalised and hidden as a result
The main ones are the Catholic church and condoms to prevent aids and the COE ( and other religious groups) with its attacks on anyone who promotes dignity in dying along with the open homophobia from religious groups
These things have caused immense suffering and huge numbers of deaths. Its something I deal with every working day and it is abhorrent
~The link on all these is obvious and well proven in the harm it does - and yes it is religious groups often dressed up as other things.
Want to continue the discussion? PMs please
Agree with you TJ.
Funkmaster – Nope – its not just extreme views unless you consider the catholic church extreme or the COE
I actually would consider the Catholic Church to be on the brink of extreme. Then again there will be moderate catholics who ignore the extreme element. Just like you have people who will go watch Star Wars and enjoy a good old brain dead action film and people who will threaten the director because it doesn’t meet their personal vision.
Probably not the best analogy.
Teej is correct.
Molgrips, KennyP, There’s a massive difference between the secular groups and organisations that you mention (even the ones I/we don’t agree with) and religious groups. The religious groups justify their attempts to influence on elaborate make believe, and call it faith. Even the NRA (as a not (specifically at least) religious group whom I find the aims of abhorrent) use reasoning and dodgy statistics to get their own way. Religion is far more opaque and sinister. The fact that most are fairly benign does not excuse the fact that they are basing their position on fallacies.
These things have caused immense suffering and huge numbers of deaths.
I suspect far fewer deaths than "secular" organisations such as tobacco companies, breweries, fast food manufacturers, gun lobbies etc etc.
The religious groups justify their attempts to influence on elaborate make believe, and call it faith.
Whereas the groups I mentioned above often just downright lie.
Whereas the groups I mentioned above often just downright lie.
Ah, but they do it for profit, not prophet.
I don’t like either motive particularly, but the profit motive is at least transparent.
Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of.
Probably because you are lucky enough to have been born in 21st C Western Europe, where religion’s influence is very much in decline.
Even my grandparents’ generation would have thought very differently to you and there are still vast swathes of the world, well documented places, where religious groups will tell you how to behave if you visit.
How about a belief purely based upon what a person feels? Are you saying that should be dismissed as bunkum?
A lot of people would say "yes" but what they means is "yes, but only when it conflicts with one of my own beliefs for which I hold no evidence for beyond my limited experience". See the recent coffee thread, tupperware thread, this thread, Brexit thread...
Like why do you have coffee every morning? Did you investigate all other possible morning drinks and rigorously test them to arrive at coffee as the most superior drink? How did you determine the best way of making it? What criteria did you use to judge superiority - cost, taste, health etc?Nope, for most people me included we've just kind of stumbled there being blindly influended by something or other. But when it comes to religion we're really sure we have it 100% nailed down.
How about a belief purely based upon what a person feels? Are you saying that should be dismissed as bunkum?
Well it's belief, not proof.
if I had a friend who thought he was a toaster would I stick a slice of bread up his arse at breakfast time or would I give him a mirror and and Argos catalogue and leave him to work it out for himself?
You're wasted here, you should be on telly with Dara.
In the interests of the scientific method and for completeness, I can confirm that the bread came out nicely browned but I'm not sure as I want to eat it.
when in reality you’ve just used your faith to sort your life out, kinda like a goddy placebo effect. God as a metaphor for some sort of inner reserve makes total sense here.
This is me. I have faith of a sort and attend church occasionally. However the engineer in me knows its a made up story which must have been re-translated multiple times over the centuries/millennia into what it is today. It must have started somewhere which is the proof part, but pinning down what that proof is...? I have no idea.
Back on topic: I was best man a number of years ago for a mate who was raised quite religious (CoE) and one of the main reasons for getting married was to get his end away. We tried to reason with him to at least live with the girl for a year (separate bedrooms of course) but couldn't get through. He has now been (un-)happily married for over 10 year with 3 kids and has no life. Went from hanging out multiple times a week to counting the number of times I've seen him since marriage on one hand.
Not as extreme as OP's situation but similar cause.
pmsl @ cougar.
Yeah. Bollocks to this, I'm off to Argos.
Also, some people are just potty.
Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of.
I believe in dignity in death. I believe its a human right to chose the time and place of my death. Organised religous objections to this deny me this right. Thats them imposing their moral code on me. Thats a very personal and strongly held belief that I cannot exercise because of religious objections.
I will fight for the religious to be able to follow their beliefs at the end of their life even when it conflicts with my personal beliefs. Why will they not do me the same courtesy?
Religious opposition to dignity in dying causes huge human suffering and its something that I have intimate personal and professional experience of
Oh fiddlesticks - sucked back in. Sorry!
Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of.
Never worked anywhere that shut down over Christmas?
Or been to the Isle of Lewis?
I believe in dignity in death. I believe its a human right to chose the time and place of my death. Organised religous objections to this deny me this right. Thats them imposing their moral code on me. Thats a very personal and strongly held belief that I cannot exercise because of religious objections.
I will fight for the religious to be able to follow their beliefs at the end of their life even when it conflicts with my personal beliefs. Why will they not do me the same courtesy?
tjagain - I wholeheartedly agree with your argument
I believe in dignity in death. I believe its a human right to chose the time and place of my death. Organised religous objections to this deny me this right. Thats them imposing their moral code on me. Thats a very personal and strongly held belief that I cannot exercise because of religious objections.
Again, confirmation bias. There are secular arguments against assisted dying.
Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of.
Never worked anywhere that shut down over Christmas?
Or tried to marry more than one spouse?
Even my grandparents’ generation would have thought very differently to you and there are still vast swathes of the world, well documented places, where religious groups will tell you how to behave if you visit.
Yes but it's not *because* of religion. It's because they are conservative, they think they are right, and they think they are entitled to persuade you to think like they do. These traits are NOT at all limited to religious people, nor do all religious people demonstrate them.
The problem isn't with religious people, the problem is with arseholes. Some of whom are religious.
Never worked anywhere that shut down over Christmas?
That's a ridiculous argument. Christmas is a secular festival as well as a religious one. Same thing happens at Thanksgiving in the US, that's not a religious festival.
Molgrips - I have looked into this topic in detail. there is almost a 100% correlation between religious belief and opposition to dignity in death. Trust me on this - a topic close to my heart and one I have looked at in detail. If you look into the folk objecting on supposed secular grounds they are almost all religious.
pm me if you want to know more
I believe its a human right to chose the time and place of my death.
Secular objections include (but are not limited to)
Weakens respect for the sanctity of life
Values some lives more than others
Places doctors in a difficult position ethically
Places pressure on people at end of life
Difficult to regulate
Becomes a cost effective way of dealing with an increasingly elderly population
Ignores palliative care
Nickc =- pm me if you want to know more.
edit -You can make a secular argument yes ( it does not stand up) however if you look into the folk actually objecting you will find an almost 100% correlation between those who object adn those who hold religious beliefs - especially within the medical professions. A lot of them know that their religious objections are invalid ( to impose upon others) so try to hide behind a secular mask
Or tried to marry more than one spouse?
I believe it's unlawful to marry even the one spouse. (-:
Secular objections include (but are not limited to)
... open to manipulation by relatives who may not have the patient's best interests at heart.
There's an interesting podcast from the Guardian on the topic of euthanasia.
The problem isn’t with religious people, the problem is with arseholes. Some of whom are religious.
I think you’re partially correct; there ARE arseholes everywhere. The problem with religion is that it confers legitimacy to some arseholes; their otherwise unreasonable positions are entrenched by the writings of long dead zealots, and it’s then held up as a legitimate argument to (for example) withdraw children from classes where gender and sexuality equality is being taught.
Hell, they even have the arrogance to call it the ‘Truth’ for goodness sake.