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Selfish you say? Somebody's got to fund those triple-locked State Benefits Pensions.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme ]Ponzi scheme.[/url]
New politics - what's that? So far we have
Labour and Tories both in disarray due to irrevocable splits that have and will continue to haunt them
The apathetic can't be arsed to participate in the democratic process and then complain about the result
The recent economic performance including trends in employment, wages and inequality continue to be mispresented by those who can't be bothered to check easily available data/facts
All sounds pretty familiar to me!!
Jambalaya how will they be better off in the medium term? What will we doing then that we are not now? No one's going to opening shipyards steelworks mines or any other skilled industry? We could become a global call centre? For the life of me every thing I have seen over the past 50 years and particularly post the miners strike has done anything to help the poor
There is no getting away from the fact that this vote has handed enormous political power to the right - Maggie is back to haunt us once more
..from 36% to 70% turnout in the space of a few days. Someones massively cocked-up, or the young who didn't vote are now claiming they did when surveyed. And no one can prove otherwise.
Well the article that you link to does conclude, after pointing out that the figures are unreliable :
[i]"Nobody can quibble with the assertion that young people in the UK are bad at voting."[/i]
and now we get to the crux of it. Well done you.Certainly me, in the medium and longer term they will be much better off
Pawsey - I don't agree, voting should require people to put at least a token amount of effort in.
Huh, registering by paper or electronically, what's the difference?
Mine are registered at home. First thing the council did was to send a letter insisting my council tax went up as I had not declared them as living with me. Two weeks to reply. I found the letter on return from holiday with deadline already expired. Its time to improve the system and treat people as voters in their right and not connected to a property. You not noticed how many people live in rented accommodation?
Your children not think there's an easier way to register and vote electronically? It would be a real step forward given the number of times a year I'm required to vote. Police commissioner, mayor,local council, referendums, elections.
@Pawsey - I kind of agree with you but worry about the security and privacy issues associated with e-voting.
I guess if the maligned identity card scheme had been introduced it would be easier 😐
Also if e-voting became universal then I guess there could be even more votes per year. If the Brexit referendum has shown anything it is that many of the electorate vote on bias rather than careful judgement so I do not think this would be a good thing.
You are right that things could be improved though and it is crap that the council used that information in the way they did.
the above articles aren't (in any way) contradictory:
They say voter turnout in the 18-24 age range was 36% or, as put earlier, 64% didn't bother to vote. The link above states that of the 36% turnout, over 70% voted to remain.
I've moved around and lived in rented accommodation for over 10 years but was always registered to vote, so I'm sorry but it can be done and people need to get off their arse. Radio1 ran repeated stories on how to register, probably other similar networks did also. End of the day even if it was electronic you'd still need to be registered and I suspect have to go to a polling station. For me the present system works and if it can work for an old person suffering from a thousand ailments then what excise have the young got?
Oldmanmtb - your kids, in disrespecting (rightly or wrongly) the beliefs\attitudes of other segments of society to which they currently have little attachment, is bigotry.
Harsh? Maybe, but from your own OP, they are intolerant toward pensioners, non-graduates and those on benefits...
We shouldn't deride these groups, but attempt to encourage and engage them. Challenge their beliefs with logic and reason. Some of those you meet, you'll never change their minds, but there are plenty who are willing to listen.
I went door to door in Bristol and Bath during the referendum and received everything from threats to hugs. Many in the middle were willing to listen. We voted 62% remain 🙂
#killemwithkindness
Daffy I aplaud your sentiment (not taking the piss) I have raised my kids to be considerate socialists and to understand that we need to take care of the less well off - they understand this but they really don't understand why this section of society would vote against their (mine and my kids support) as I have said before what happens next? There is no plan, they (the poor Brexiteers) will become even more persecuted and no one on this forum has proffered any sort of plan or way forward for the disadvantaged elements of our society - to be frank it's a *ing disgrace that no one on this forum (pro bexit) has given any indication of how these poor *ers will actually improve their lives.. socialism my arse
I went door to door in Bristol and Bath during the referendum and received everything from threats to hugs. Many in the middle were willing to listen. We voted 62% remain
You are the first person I "know" who actually campaigned for Remain, congrats to getting involved.
@oldman I am pretty sure ernie and Corbyn didn't support Leave as they felt it was a way to give power to the right. We are taking back power to give to whoever we elect.
As for medium term we can now focus globally without one had tied behind our back and we can distance ourselves for the economic corpse the EU is becoming. Both are hugely positive.
EDiT: thats how the less well of will be best served - see below. As for a plan I would have liekd for the Referendum to be binding and that way the government would have had to make a plan. Leave was a campaign not a government, the plan was made atbthe BoE / HMRC and the plan is to negotiate terms with the EU then activate Article 50.
As for persecution that will be in very short supply when the EU / eurozone blows up and they realise we are much better off out.
There is no plan, they (the poor Brexiteers) will become even more persecuted and no one on this forum has proffered any sort of plan or way forward for the disadvantaged elements of our society - to be frank it's a *ing disgrace that no one on this forum (pro bexit) has given any indication of how these poor *ers will actually improve their lives.. socialism my arse
Of course, there never was.
But if people want to ignore the evidence of experts, they have to live with the consequences of their actions. They only have themselves to blame.
considerate [s]socialists[/s] citizes and to understand that we need to take care of the less well off
The less well off are best served by a strong economy. The 25% youth and 10% general unemployed in France aren't helped by relatively generous welfare of €500 a month, being at the heart of the EU and members of Schengen and the euro
There is no plan, they (the poor Brexiteers) will become even more persecuted and no one on this forum has proffered any sort of plan or way forward for the disadvantaged elements of our society - to be frank it's a *ing disgrace that no one on this forum (pro bexit) has given any indication of how these poor *ers will actually improve their lives..
But they shouldn't be persecuted. They voted for change. Not necessarily against the EU in many circumstances, they were just fed up with the perceived decline in their way of life, much of which (again rightly or wrongly) they ascribe to immigration. In the deprived areas of Bristol such as Southmeade, or Filton, immigrant populations were increasing as housing was cheap. It was cheap because more affluent (read mortgaged to the hilt) people didn't want to live there. This left the deprived (finically incapable of improving their surroundings) with migrant renters who (like students in Clifton) have little or no interest in making the place nicer and integrating with locals. Locals believe the migrants are the cause of the problems, but they're really a symptom of a need for cheap labour in cities which are increasing in size and are generally making a positive contribution (by paying tax, buying food, using local services and schools) to the area which would otherwise decline further.
Local councils have yet to really step in and deal with this schism like they have in the past. Carnivals, local events, etc,they all help cultural integration and understanding. This worked in Bristol, Bradford and London in the 80s and 90s.
You have to fully understand another's point of view before you can comment on whether its fact or fiction in light of events in context. Regardless, they should never be dismissed.
The Referendum is over, Brexit will continue. BUT. Those who feel aggrieved can change the FUTURE. Join the LIb Dems, fight for, campaign for, speak for the benefits of Europe at the next general election. That's where my efforts are going. I hope your kids will do the same.
Like Jambalya - I too feel that Europe is heading for a fall, but unlike Jambalya. I think that we can fix it. With Britain, France and Germany working together, as friends, allies and partners. Europe can be reformed. David Cameron did his best (and in my opinion did quite well under the circumstances) but fundamental changes need to be made. Free movement should continue, but significant extra EU funding should be provisioned for when migration to a place is high. This funding should be given to local councils for the building of facilities and methods for integration of new populations.
Daffy I agree with all you have said I the above post and Jambalaya I understand the taking power concept - but how long is it before there is a viable opposition to the right wing of the Tory party? As it stands the Labour Party may will spilt into "Blairite v corybanite" the lib dems are history and we have no SNP equivalent unless you count UKIP
The origional point of this thread was to point out that there is a substantial new political class (not protest voters) and they are more likely to vote right wing, today he Chancellor announced corporation Tax cuts to 15% which in theory will attract investment but the reality is it will attract wealth managment not industry and keep UK based business more profitable but less likely to invest that surplus.
They voted for change. Not necessarily against the EU in many circumstances, they were just fed up with the perceived decline in their way of life, much of which (again rightly or wrongly) they ascribe to immigration.
Therein lies the problem. The ballot paper made not reference to the wooly notion of change. It was a specific question re our membership of the European Union. Nothing more, nothing less.
There are other votes where a general dissatisfaction with life can be registered but this was not one of them. And if people,think that the decline in their way of life is due to immigration, well.....
The origional point of this thread was to point out that there is a substantial new political class (not protest voters) and they are more likely to vote right wing,
Where is the evidence for this substantial change? If that were the case you would imagine that he Tories would have done better than to achieve a small majority and UKIP would have more than one MP.
today he Chancellor announced corporation Tax cuts to 15% which in theory will attract investment but the reality is it will attract wealth managment not industry and keep UK based business more profitable but less likely to invest that surplus.
Not sure how that works...why is wealth management more sensitive to tax rates than industry? Why is making business more profitable bad? Why does more profit lead to reduction in investment?
Therein lies the problem. The ballot paper made not reference to the wooly notion of change.
But the campaign to leave DID.
The leave campaign said lots of things that were Bllx, but that's another story
People had a chance to exercise their democratic right. If they chose to exercise the right poorly or incorrectly then that is their problem. The ballot paper was very clear.
teamhurtmore - Member
The leave campaign said lots of things that were Bllx, but that's another story
And so did the remain campaign..get over it fella.
.....then that is their problem.
No, I think you'll find it affects the rest of us too.
That attitude is exactly why we're in this position.
On the contrary, the fact that people wont/cant take responsibility for themselves is part of the problem.
Yes, it effects us - but deal with it and accept responsibility for you own decisions and the basis on which they were made.
Re: Non-Graduates
Wahooh, I am a minority group now, where do I sign for my prize ?
P.S. please explain in simple words, why ****ting around "Uni" for a couple of years, makes you a super brain - in simple words please !!
You learn to spend student loan (posh people benefits) on drugs, fags and booze and maybe get a useless certificate.
Re: Non-GraduatesWahooh, I am a minority group now, where do I sign for my prize ?
P.S. please explain in simple words, why ****ting around "Uni" for a couple of years, makes you a super brain - in simple words please !!
JackHammer - Member
You learn to spend student loan (posh people benefits) on drugs, fags and booze and maybe get a useless certificate.
Neither of these attitudes are any better than branding people as
It just creates stereotypes and divisions.Non-Graduates
It was the OP who implied his graduate kids (the 19 year old must be a genius to graduate at such a tender age) think that they are superior to non-graduates and, as such, believe that their opinions have more worth.
As a graduate myself I have learned that this is not the case and many of the people that I admire most did not attend university. The list of college drop-outs below is US focused but illustrates that completing a degree is not a pre-requisite for achievement.
Bill Gates
Steve Jobs
Frank Lloyd Wright
Buckminster Fuller
James Cameron
Mark Zuckerberg
Tom Hanks
Harrison Ford
Lady Gaga
Tiger Woods
As for the future no one has a crystal ball but consider this scenario, the 2020 election takes place in an environment where we have exited the EU and are starting to see the benfots of new global relationships. Against this backdrop Europe is in a deep eurozone crises, Greece has left the euro and the other members are nursing €200bn is losses with Portugal, Spain and Italy on the brink with unemployment running at 15%.
And you called me thick.
[I]Daffy I aplaud your sentiment (not taking the piss) I have raised my kids to be considerate socialists and to understand that we need to take care of the less well off - they understand this but they really don't understand why this section of society would vote against their (mine and my kids support) as I have said before what happens next? There is no plan, they (the poor Brexiteers) will become even more persecuted and no one on this forum has proffered any sort of plan or way forward for the disadvantaged elements of our society - to be frank it's a *ing disgrace that no one on this forum (pro bexit) has given any indication of how these poor *ers will actually improve their lives.. socialism my arse [/I]
+1
Previously I've always cast my vote for who/what I think is best for the country, not what is best for me (and immediate family).
I/We have always done well, whoever is in power and whatever policies they've adopted - having always been in decent jobs/work/contracts both here and abroad plus always owned our own houses, kids educated privately etc.
I'm now wondering whether I should just vote for me, and f*** the rest of the country?
I'm now wondering whether I should just vote for me, and f*** the rest of the country?
The same had occurred to me, but then the thought of voting Conservative and having to live the the shame would be too much 😉
socialism my arse
Never a truer word spoken 😆
Well I never thought I would see the day that enfht expressed her/his support for genuine socialism.
Although I suspect it might be a case of enfht being a tad confused by what oldmanmtb was saying. Sharpest tool in the box and enfht aren't two things which I tend to associate together.
"for the perceived mass voters (pensioners, benefits class, non graduates"
You know the Government's of the last 20yrs have conspired to saddle generations of graduates with huge debt with many who will still paying it off well into their 40's.
I find it offensive when I Hear older voters are somehow not to be trusted to vote. They after all lived through alot more than you or I.
Do you really think someone on 'benefits decided to pop down to vote after he/she collected their social? Alot of rubbish has been spoken on both sides of the debate. Classing those that voted out in demonisable, easy to visualise sections of the population says much about the media and those that read what the media choses to report.
Let's not forget 25% of the population wanted to remain. The majority voted for change.
There was a woman in a cafe in Scotland at the weekend banging on loudly about how think leave voters are and all they cared about was immigrants.
I gritted my teeth and kept quiet.
We should respect others political opinions whatever they feel. It's a democracy and everyone should be allowed free thought and will without being insulted.
Maybe some people should stop reading the newspapers with skewered reporting and the top three hits on Google.
I don't think you can raise your kids to be anything unless you indulge in brainwashing. If you encourage independent thought they are unlikely to end up with the same values as you as you are only a part of their world with a decreasing influence as they grow up.
Daffy I aplaud your sentiment (not taking the piss) I have raised my kids to be considerate socialists and to understand that we need to take care of the less well off - they understand this but they really don't understand why this section of society would vote against their (mine and my kids support) as I have said before what happens next? There is no plan, they (the poor Brexiteers) will become even more persecuted and no one on this forum has proffered any sort of plan or way forward for the disadvantaged elements of our society - to be frank it's a *ing disgrace that no one on this forum (pro bexit) has given any indication of how these poor *ers will actually improve their lives.. socialism my arse
Probably the most confusing collection of words I have ever seen.
From considerate socialism to socialism my arse !
I'm now wondering whether I should just vote for me, and f*** the rest of the country?
Do whats best for you mate 😉
Let's not forget 25% of the population wanted to remain. The majority voted for change.
Another example of how to present figures in the most misleading way possible. The most telling figure IMO is the difference between the two camps, tiny.
Whatever the effect of the Brexit vote on the economy, immigration or whatever, I'm convinced of one thing; it has divided British society (to pick up on the title of a Sky News debate) and viewing from afar, broken it.
People have situated themselves in society on the basis of political views and a class system. Now there's a new divide and it means people I know who used to invite each other to dinner may never talk to each other again.
Tiny? 1.4million voters wasn't it?
Papers are printing that x% of 18-24yrs voted to remain. How the hell did they arrive at that? Do you poll everyone as they leave the polling station? I dont rwmember putting my age and if I was on the dole on my voting slip either. Apparently the polls missed the landslide Tory election victory too.
There are some worrying stories being angled in the press, to deceive, scare and get the blood up of people.
Yup, or <2% of the population of voting age.
On this forum I read through the in/out thread generally thinking "figures" or "no surprise there". Just now and then there was a "WTF" moment, you weren't one of them, Hora. 😉
Exit polls are pretty good, it's the pre-election polls that are more variable. To be fair to the polls, the FT poll of polls put leave ahead in the final days.
Cheeky boy give my post another read and maybe you will grasp the "irony"
Al I know is Joe averages lot will not improve those with wealth and power at all levels will use all that wealth and power to ensure it. Happy to revisit this in 5 years, with the Tories still in charge UKIP with a few seats Labour with a few seats lib dems with a few seats and the SNP with their existing seats - mathematical analysis of the first past the post system tells us that a coalition is likley two elections down the line - so will UKIP be the Tory junior party? Has anyone thought how tough it is going to be to get the Tory party out of power? Coalition or not - it will take north of ten years before the Tory are out - just check the History of UK politics
Cheeky boy give my post another read and maybe you will grasp the "irony"
I have done several times, I dont see irony only confusion and possibly exasperation at the audacity of those poor persecuted brexiters for voting against yourself and your kids support, how dare they !!
I also raised my kids to work hard and get a good education as well as being socially responsible - shall I just let them run feral Edukator they are free to choose their own path and incidentally I did not discuss the Brexit vote with them prior and told the to go out and research implications etc - they all voted remain
Different times, oldmanmtb.
My political views are an integral part of who I am.
You too, I imagine.
Disenfranchise people, offer them no real choice, blame the underclass you have created and legitimise greed.
Why should they care?
What other political reality have they experienced?
Stop them running feral by all means. I've done what I can with reasoned argument, blackmail, bribes, love, throwing wobblies - all's fair in love, war and bringing up kids. Junior is however very much his own man, a function of his total environment not just his home - a sort of anarcho-capitalist-altermondial-eco-socio-democtratic reactionary who will have a ball studying political science.
He's part of a generation that won't follow the way his parents vote because this new Internet generation haven't had to rely on their parents and the family newspaper to form their ideas. They aren't like us and hold the current political machine in contempt. Somethings gotta change, and unlike our generation who had very little reason not to conform and enjoy the benefits, the youth of today has a lot of reasons to reject all the current mainstream models. They aren't Tory or Labour or Soc Dem, but they'll take an interest in anything that promises real change.
Edit: I see Rusty got there first.