Just been reading some of the cost’s, they expect to industry and trade etc. Wow
Most of those alleged costs are all worst case scenarios accumulated over a 30-year period. It's only when you delve VERY deeply into them do you find this information. Actually if averaged out on a yearly basis, it's way under the savings made from not having to scrape as many dead people and wrecked cars off the roads.
One fatal incident on the roads costs about £1.2m now in terms of emergency services time and resources, road closures, highway repairs and that's just direct costs, it's before you start factoring in the economic loss of the deceased no longer working & paying tax, time off work for family members due to the bereavement and so on. Gets really complex if you want to calculate it properly which is why you know any simple paragraph saying "it's estimated that the costs will be....." are almost always bollocks.
the Twitter thread is the best summary and should just be the be all and end all.
It probably has made a difference to overall speeds and therefore improved road safety. People may not stick to the limit, but they may not stick to 30mph either so instead of 35mph they're doing 27mph or something.
Got to be a good thing. 30mph is completely arbitrary anyway.
Objections here included engines not liking it (between second and third gear, damage to buildings from lorry’s rumbling more, driver getting bored and therefore easily distracted and more likely to crash, higher miles per gallon, more potholes, greater risk to cyclists, not being able to see kids in the evening due to be so late home from driving slower.
Emboldened bit could have been from me, and was a genuine problem in my previous car. A fairly pathetic(~110hp), naturally aspirated 1.8 petrol from 2001, engine had been around since the mid 90's.
3rd was idle speed and was a real risk of stalling.
2nd put you in the (still fairly pathetic) power band meaning you'll be up to 25 in an instant with a tiny twitch of the foot, and conversly lifting off gave some fairly considerable engine braking.
That car is now over two decades old and other engines like it are pushing 3; so I imagine it is not a problem for many people now.
My current 2013 car will happily do 20. Just above idle in third.
Sure there are the people who won't comply but a growing number will. Within those who comply there are those happy to comply because they think it's a good idea, those that comply because it's law, those who do 25 rather than 35 paying lip service to the law and those who don't like the idea at all but still pay lip service. And a few roadhogs who couldn't give ****.
I've seen the limit in my part of town go from 60kmh (up to 1990) to 50kmh and now 30kmh. The change in behaviour has been pretty radical, most people have slowed down a lot.
There's a growing awareness that accident investigators will find out how fast you were going if you **** up. It's not so much fear of the police, it's a fear of ****ing up and getting caught. Hit and run still happens but there's so much CCTV and so many people have dash cams fewer people are getting away with it. A case made the news where the data from a Jaguar airbag proved the speed of impact and resulted in prosecution, add that to the experts with their tape measures, calculators and ananysis of damage and if you **** up speeding it''ll be hard to deny.
So between between positive attitude and fear limits do have an impact.
That car is now over two decades old and other engines like it are pushing 3; so I imagine it is not a problem for many people now.
Modern cars are geared for this kind of driving now. I've driven loads of different vehicles in road race convoy stuff - had a VW Golf a while ago that was spot on in 3rd gear at anything from about 20-35mph, it was near seamless.
Even the big Volvo XC60 I used recently was town-driving geared (plus that was automatic anyway so it just did it's own thing).
Admittedly, my old manual diesel does need some switching between 2nd and 3rd but that's not exactly difficult - anyone complaining about such an issue is too stupid or incompetent to be on the roads. Modern cars (especially automatics), it doesn't even come into the equation, it's just another bollocks complaint to try and justify driving faster.
Strangely, if you used that argument on bikes and said "oh I was just flowing down this hill at 30mph because it felt far smoother and was easier to control than 20", those exact same people would be complaining that you were hurtling recklessly, going far too fast and so on. They don't care about the practicalities of it at all, they're moaning because they just want to drive as fast as possible.
Round our way the difficulty would be getting tractors to stick to 20 mph whilst they use their mobile phones.
I watched a car review the other day, and I am sure Harry Metcalf said that from next year every new car has to audibly warn you if you are going too fast for the speed limit (that will be a pain in the arse!)
Having just been in Wales for a week, can I just ask if this is a sort of hypothetical thing for when you're not stuck behind a tractor?
We have a crossing that is often avoided – because it is a few metres down the road away from a junction and bus stop. To put it somewhere more ‘pleasing’ and accessible to the pedestrians puts it across the junction, bus stop and nearer a corner…so making it less safe
Not if it was a proper crossing. Many many countries have crossing on junctions, including the Uk that work just fine
I also live in the Scottish Borders, we've 20's across the county and while originally the council put in 'blanket' 20's they've since moved to a combination of 20's and 30's, depending on the road/junctions/pedestrians/schools etc.
Works will IMO, and certainly is keeping the speeds down especially of the 'drive at 40 everywhere' brigade.
As I've said to those saying on FB etc how difficult/dangerous it is to drive at 20 - give up your licence, you're not fit to drive.
I've noticed a big change in driving habits locally (Norway) since they literally doubled the fines for various bits of bad behaviour, so a bit of naughty undertaking/lane weaving as an example now might clean you out to the equivalent of ~£900 (yes 900). After they caught a couple hundred people in a month things have changed a fair bit.
Went past a car on the way home one evening recently with a sad looking ex driver and a policeman removing his number plates for being caught no insurance....
Next stop is to introduce the law that if you're caught 'råkjoring' your car is removed from you and sold (no you don't get the money). This is currently the case in Denmark as a local guy went to pick up a Lambo to take home and sell, went a lot too fast in Denmark, lost the car, got a driving ban, 20 days jail (suspended) and banned from Denmark for 4 years . Given importing exotica was his business , he isn't real happy but c'est la vie.
The UK is soft for driving offences
Limits do apply to cyclists.
Nope.
Can't say I've noticed any difference in behaviour in Edinburgh after 20 was introduced.
there's no downside to these proposals, 20mph limits make the areas within them more pleasant and safer for everyone. they're not perfect but i'm glad i live in one.
but of course, it wouldn't be humanity/singletrackworld without the same old windbags piping up the usual nonsense drivel in response.
Having just been in Wales for a week, can I just ask if this is a sort of hypothetical thing for when you’re not stuck behind a tractor?
The tractors dont stick to their speed limits though of 24mph and they are always on their mobile phones.
doubled the fines for various bits of bad behaviour, so a bit of naughty undertaking/lane weaving as an example now might clean you out to the equivalent of ~£900 (yes 900)
But they should also be fining the person who sits in the middle lane (and re educating them) middle lane drivers worry me the most ! (or those that stick to 70mph or below)
Who knows but if we are serious about road safety these are the real issues to resolve not just go slower so it hurts less.
This place, **** me sometimes it just, well.......
Mods, please just ban me now, it will save time and stress, 5 days should do it!
I watched a car review the other day, and I am sure Harry Metcalf said that from next year every new car has to audibly warn you if you are going too fast for the speed limit (that will be a pain in the arse!)
Most modern cars already warn you somehow. The speed limit usually displays on the dash and starts flashing if you exceed it although you can (usually) adjust the margin at which it starts doing that.
The sheer number of annoying beeping noises in cars now is a distraction in itself. Seatbelt not fastened, door not closed, reversing, speeding, lane deviation, proximity warning...
I pulled into a layby to let an oncoming vehicle past recently and the Volvo went mental, beeping away that I was too close to the verge, had left the lane etc and then it went mental again as the oncoming vehicle squeezed past which triggered more proximity warnings. Was really distracting as I was trying to concentrate on positioning the car and all I had was this constant beeping and screaming.
We've had it in Bristol for quite a few years now and it's fantastic. Much nicer when walking and cycling. It's also better when driving, easier to pull out at junctions. Yes adherence was low to start with but I'd say the majority stick to it or close to it.
Also no need to limit it to side streets. It is wanted on the mainer roads too. That's where you often gets shops and pedestrians, delivery trucks pulling in and out, cars parked in the cycle lane, etc. Just have a blanket limit and if you really are unable to drive at that speed then you shouldn't be driving.
If 20 is too much for 2nd gear, and too little for 3rd gear, just drive at less than 20 in 2nd. 20mph is the limit, not the target
Yes adherence was low to start with but I’d say the majority stick to it or close to it.
I'd say people still speed, but it's 25 rather than 35. There was the usual moaning then everyone just got on with it.
Just need cameras to stop people ignoring them.
When it's busy it only takes one person to stick to the limit to make everyone else do it.
The usual leftists looking forward to being governed harder, as expected.
Hopefully there will be some local bladerunner types as per London ulez who will destroy any enforcement cameras.
You’ll never stop pedestrians being hit, although we should try to limit that. But you can limit the damage when they are.
This sums up beautifully the benefits of 20 limit.
I know someone (through no fault of their own) ran over and killed a child. It completely destroyed them so anything that reduces the risk I totally support.
The UK is soft for driving offences
+1
there’s no downside to these proposals, 20mph limits make the areas within them more pleasant and safer for everyone. they’re not perfect but i’m glad i live in one.
+1
When it’s busy it only takes one person to stick to the limit to make everyone else do it.
+1. I gleefully do that in my big suv. Shocking how many people tailgate you doing 30 in a 30, as if to try and intimidate.
The usual leftists looking forward to being governed harder, as expected.
Hopefully there will be some local bladerunner types as per London ulez who will destroy any enforcement cameras.
Oh dear.
The French answer to the destruction of fixed speed cameras has been investment in camera cars which drive around and pick up any car speeding in either direction. They're making a fortune, no-one has a clue where they are and even the most determined speeders who knew every camera and the habits of the Gendarmes are running out of points and having to slow down. On roads near you soon,
Same with parking, a couple of camera cars in Lyon check 6000 cars a day whereas wardens used to manage a few hundred.
And emissions zones, at present it's just the police enforcing but it can only be a matter of time before there's a data base of the zone ratings of every car and the camera cars automatically fine the cars that shouldn't be in the zone.
In Marseille police cars have cameras to check out every car they pass, the main success has been recovering stolen cars.
So think hard about what you wish for, Daveylad.
@Edukator Thanks to Eric Pickles, councils in the UK aren’t allowed to use camera cars for parking enforcement.
🙁
Shocking how many people tailgate you doing 30 in a 30, as if to try and intimidate.
I just slow down a bit more when they do that.
Shocking how many people tailgate you doing 30 in a 30, as if to try and intimidate.
Have you seen the stickers you can get saying "this car has a Black Box - trust me it annoys me more than you" or "sorry I can't speed, Black Box fitted"
It's apologising for driving to the law?! I mean, WTAF? Sorry I'm driving in a law-abiding manner and "holding you up, I feel I have to explain the fact I;m not doing 40 in a 20 zone".
FFS.
If 20 is too much for 2nd gear, and too little for 3rd gear, just drive at less than 20 in 2nd. 20mph is the limit, not the target
Thanks to Eric Pickles, councils in the UK aren’t currently allowed to use camera cars for parking enforcement.
FTFY, as no government can constrain another under our current rules. It's coming and should make city and town centres nicer places to be.
@Sandwich Have you got a reference for that? Sounds like very good news.
slowoldman
Full Member
Shocking how many people tailgate you doing 30 in a 30, as if to try and intimidate.I just slow down a bit more when they do that.
Cruising along at 20/30 with an obviously enraged goon in tow is an underrated pleasure.
The usual leftists looking forward to being governed harder, as expected.
Hopefully there will be some local bladerunner types as per London ulez who will destroy any enforcement cameras
Wow.
I very rarely drive at the speed limit even on bigger roads. Looking ahead (helps being in a van) and seeing the next town a few kms away means I'm loath to hit the accelerator only to jump on the brakes again rather than just cruising and taking my foot off and letting it coast down to 50kmh.
30kmh zones throughout quite a few cities including Munich. Makes driving much easier and you've more time to check what's going on. I like it.
There's a place for speed, but it's not residential/town streets.
How time are you really saving?
.
What they did in Stuttgart near where I lived in order to stop rat runs was to remove all signage and street markings within residential areas. Thus nobody had priority at any junction. No stops or give ways anywhere. Meant you had to virtually come to a stop at every single intersection. It certainly worked well.
southampton is currently rolling out 20mph across the city too. majorly in favour but without enforcement its pointless. we had a speed bump installed on the road near us, now the fast and furious brigade use it as a game to see who can get the highest speed on the sign that shows your speed a little further down outside the school drop off area. I mean ffs.
@Edukator Thanks to Eric Pickles, councils in the UK aren’t allowed to use camera cars for parking enforcement.
I am pretty sure that can be bypassed if councils make the appropriate request. Happy to be schooled.
It sounds like I am not the only one who gets a frisson of excitement when I pass a 20mph sign and check my mirror for the usual SUV driving gammon.
If you hit a pedestrian:
at 40 mph there is a 90 percent chance they will be killed.
at 35 mph there is a 50 percent chance they will be killed.
at 30 mph there is a 20 percent chance they will be killed.
at 20 mph there is a 2.5 percent chance they will be killed.
End of argument, Shirley?
+1. It’s about saving lives but hey some are just too dumb & too selfish to realise that.
Not sure if Mervyn58’s tweet here is TFIC or mind-bendingly stupid
https://twitter.com/58all/status/1692227815687475267
Any passing mods - I think X embedding is broken unless you change the URL to twitter
One has to wonder about priorities when you consider the large NHS waiting lists in Wales vs the costs of implementing this speed change - signage, etc.
One has to wonder about priorities when you consider the large NHS waiting lists in Wales vs the costs of implementing this speed change – signage, etc
Looks as though the signage will be quite cheap:
They are changing the DEFAULT speed limit, that applies when there are no signs, to 20mph.
One has to wonder about priorities when you consider the large NHS waiting lists in Wales vs the costs of implementing this speed change – signage, etc.
It doesn't have to be expensive. When they implemented it here they just put a 20mph vinyl wrap over every 30pmh sign. There was obviously some cost in labour and printing but they didn't actually replace any signs.
Not sure if Mervyn58’s tweet here is TFIC or mind-bendingly stupid
Funny, I was wondering the same about Wellings' theories.
