[Closed] Why do Shimano stick with cup and cone?

With old Campag C AND C hubs if the bearing surface died in the hub it was replaceable

I'm not sure Shimano are that bothered about maintenance, friction comparisons, spanners, etc. I suspect that its more to do with economics. Shimano sell [b]X[/b] number of wheel sets with CnC hubs, so why change and re-invent their wheels ?. If sales completely collapsed and if Shimano attributed that drop in sales to not having CB hubs. Then I guess someone in Japan would have to face the decision of either ending wheel manufacture or switching to CB hubs.

Just a thought.

Edric - possible with shimano also.

Dura ace wheelsets for racing and dry miles, cartridge for the wet, training, commuting and on the mtb is my general rule of thumb. Works for me, mainly as i've decided that's what i'm happy with, and i've always had a soft spot for dura ace.

new dura ace has replaceable cups now too.

harking back to the guy who was sat on a french bike shop floor, it is nigh on impossible to properly adjust c+c hubs without an axle clamp and vice. small adjustments aren't simple unless the axle is static.

Slight digression-

I need to replace a lost cone on a no name mtb hub. Does anyone know a shop that holds a good stock?

Cheers

Hope rear for under £20 of bearings and in a under an hour - cheap enough and easy enough for me.

Shimano rear, 50 pence and done in 20 mins, a complete Deore rear hub for £24......XT for £40...... Please refer to my earlier comment on bearing prices! 🙂
(to be fair, an hour for Hope bearings is slooooow)

Slight digression-
I need to replace a lost cone on a no name mtb hub. Does anyone know a shop that holds a good stock?
Cheers

Don't even TRY getting one online! Go to your LBS and see what they have, or see what your mates have lying around. I've got all sorts of hub spares in my toolbox from various places, but there's no way I could tell if any would fit without the wheel in my hand.
You might find new cones will be a different size or design and you'll have to faff with spacers or swap seals to get it to work, but it should be doable 🙂
I once transplanted the entire guts of an XT hub into a Deore, freehub, axle, cones, spacers, seals, the lot.

One of my friends rode track internationally, and his front hub was C&C, with oil instead of grease, and one ball bearing removed. You could spin the wheel slowly and hear the tick as the balls slipped around into the empty space, and the wheel spun forever.

This ^^ was a common thing to do.

I thought there was a significant difference in the rolling resistance between loose ball and cartridge bearings in favour of loose ball to the tune of 1/5th of the rolling resistance.

Shimano rear, 50 pence and done in 20 mins, a complete Deore rear hub for £24......XT for £40...... Please refer to my earlier comment on bearing prices!
(to be fair, an hour for Hope bearings is slooooow)

Yep Under £20 have done it for less but never 50p, however as I don't do this very often it's not really an issue.
Again the UNDER and hour thing was allowing for much arsing round with the wrong tools and a couple of beers - best was about 15mins

As for just throwing away the cheap hubs, great just add in new nipples if your lucky of new spokes if the flange has changed.

Still each to their own

As for just throwing away the cheap hubs, great just add in new nipples if your lucky of new spokes if the flange has changed.

Who said anything about throwing them away? It was just a price comparison. FWIW an XT would probably out last just about anything for me. I can make a Deore last as long as a Hope XC and still be as good as new. If I had the pics I'd show you what the 4 year old Deore cups were like on a bike I sold a couple of years ago. They were immaculate. (that was the one with the XT innards) 🙂

fair enough, I have messed round with C+C just CBA really. My hubs range from 1st year ProII through to current. All working fine must be somewhere near p/mile now.

Still never get me back to C+C though

(and they don't click nice...)

Shimano rear, 50 pence and done in 20 mins, a complete Deore rear hub for £24......XT for £40...... Please refer to my earlier comment on bearing prices!

Personally last time I replaced my Hope bearings (which was after I noticed a slight knocking after 7 years of use) I did so for £2 in 15 minutes.

Sure they were not top quality bearings but they're not dead 4 scottish winters later and I call that good value.

You still have to bin the bearings on C+C hubs, just not the races. If the races go, you have to bin the hub, which isn't exactly sustainable economical cycling is it?

I can make a Deore last as long as a Hope XC and still be as good as new.

A cartridge bearing hub has an infinite lifespan, as long as you don't rip the flange off. A C+C hub does not, because the races will wear eventually.

As for 50p vs £20 - £20 is for a complete rear hub set isn't it? That would include freehub bearings too, would it not? A complete shimano hub service is never 50p. Especially as you're not supposed to be able to change the freehub bearings afaik (and it is a fiddle even if you manage it), you're meant to buy a new one. Which is about £120 for XTR (comparable to Hope in terms of weight and price of hub, last time I looked anyway).

The Hopes on my 5 are perfect 5 years on, btw. As are my XTRs, but they are on my race bike which does very few miles so I'd expect them to be.

Oh and in Hope hubs the freehub is supported by the main axle, not so on Shimano, which is why I needed a new one - it got crushed out of shape under high torque.

I think the main reason is free running of hubs. My XTRs do indeed run very freely indeed, however this is of dubious benefit in actual racing. I got them because they were (paradoxically) cheaper than the other alternatives.

And I dunno why you'd think it's easier to service C+C hubs. It's a fine art adjusting bearings, whereas replacing the cartridge bearings on Hope hubs just requires a hammer, a drift and a bit of wood. And very little finesse.

You still have to bin the bearings on C+C hubs, just not the races. If the races go, you have to bin the hub,

So? I binned a Hope XC after 4 years during which it snapped 2 axles, had the pawls replaced (possibly twice, I forget now) and when the third axle snapped it jammed the pawls into the freehub ratchet and ripped it to shreds.
To be fair, I always thought that particular one was a dodgy hub and the XC on my Pitch has been perfect.

As for 50p vs £20 - £20 is for a complete rear hub set isn't it? That would include freehub bearings too, would it not? A complete shimano hub service is never 50p. Especially as you're not supposed to be able to change the freehub bearings afaik, you're meant to buy a new one. Which is about £120 for XTR (comparable to Hope in terms of weight and price of hub, last time I looked anyway).

OK, let's rip this to shreds...
Yes that would include freehub bearings, but not the freehub itself
Yes a Shimano hub service is 50p. That's the cost of the bearings. Maybe £1 if you throw the rest of the bag of bearings away. Plus a spoonful of grease, which I'd use on a cartridge hub as well.

Anything more isn't a service is it? It's repair.

And why are you quoting £120 for XTR? Who mentioned that? Only you to try and make it seem expensive!
Do Hope make a cheaper hub? No. Something comparable to Deore? No. So they will always be more expensive

As I already said, there's advantages to both types, but c&c hubs are waaaaaay cheaper to buy and run than cartridge hubs (bad luck and ham fistedness aside)

And there's no art to adjusting C&C hubs. All you need is a little mechanical aptitude. 🙂

If the races go, you have to bin the hub

Wrong, sorry.

And why are you quoting £120 for XTR?

I think XTR is comparable to Hope in terms of cost, weight and perceived 'kit level' so to speak.

Adjusting cup and cone does take significantly more skill than replacing cartridge bearings. I've done it many times, I'm sure you have too, but it's still a non-trivial skill.

I don't want to argue 50p vs £5 every 5 years though. Not a significant outlay in the running of bikes. They are both cheap.

I don't worry much about either kind of hub, they both work. The reason I bought XTR was cos they were cheap at the time, and something I like about them is their free running and the centrelock discs.

That's about it, really!

Cynic - replaceable races? And don't be so confrontational please 🙂

if you wear the races on c+c hubs they're OK.

If you murder then races then the hub IS dead.

No matter what you do, if the cups are scarred then the hub will run rough or with play.

Yes by wear I mean wear out ie pitting etc. As happens when you get water and grit in there.

I think Xt compares to hope.but with xtr prices.
1.You can get a lx hub from germany for half the cost of the bearings in a hope.
just exchange the internals if you're having trouble finding the races.SJS have a good selection of races,btw.
2-Mathew,if you use the sheldon method you can adjust the hubs perfectly in with just 2 cone spanners.in about a minute.It's so easy it beggars belief.
3.I have some mavic classic hubs with adjustable cartridge bearings,they roll as smoothy as the DA/deore/Xt/Lx hubs I have.
But honestly.Deore works really well if you bother to do some maintenance.Even if you just buy replacement hubs and swap out the internals it works out cheaper.Only bad thing is the engagement.
I do notice a diff between 36 points of the DA(new)/Xt an d the 48 of the hope SS Hub.
And even more so between the 36 and the 18 points of the deore / lx.

I think surly does adjustable cartridge bearing hubs.Not too expensive,about xt price.
I know the WI hubs I have yet to build up have adjustable cartridge bearings.

I really think it's one variable.I ride in really dry conditions,like to maintain my own stuff.
If I rode in wet conditions I'd probably weigh up the time/cost equation differently.

I have hopes and I'm glad I bought them.Might buy some more.Shimano hubs are better vfm though.

Yes, replaceable races. Like old campag. Apologies for tone, I get fed up with the anti shimano/hope apologist agenda on here.

Wear on cones and cups does not nec mean the hub won't run perfectly smoothly, but pitting does (until replacement of parts).

Al-it's just people trying to justify their purchase.
There's no need,really.

I justified my purchase by saying they were cheaper 🙂

It might also be that the bearings on a Shimano hub support the axle near to it's ends. The bearings on a Hope supoort the axle at the non diveside end and in the middle of the hub with the freehub just spining on the axle.

The downside of Shimano hubs for me is that the freehubs alway end up full of gunge and sounding like a cemment mixer.

E - I know.

It does give me a giggle that some people adopt such strident positions which they then defend so personally.

bruce-Might try the freehub buddy from morningstar.
I'll get one next month and report back,been meaning to for ages.

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Changing the races is possible in a Shimano hub- or at least was, haven't done a recent one. Just needs a slightly bigger hammer than Hope cartridges.

I've never had any issues with shimano hubs from a sealing point of view. Only problem I had is not tightening the locknut properly

I get fed up with the anti shimano/hope apologist agenda on here.

-it's just people trying to justify their purchase.

Just for balance...

My Mavic hubs spacked in basically no time at all. Think they're cartridge. Can't even service them without taking to a specialist dealer. Need new everything apart from the hub shells. Bent axle, knackered freehub, bearings, the lot.

A cartridge bearing hub has an infinite lifespan, as long as you don't rip the flange off.

ROFL at arguing about 50p vs £20 maintenance once every 2 years on a 2 grand bike, with both taking about an hour with a beer/tea.

My 1989 road bike has had hub maintenance maybe about 4 times.
My 1996 MTB probably about 2x
Contemplating opening up my XT hubs soon, just because (which are a fraction of the price of Hope, like less than 1/4 of the price - can replace the entire hubs 3x and still be quids in over Hope)
Binned my Mavics.

I have Hope and Shimano
I use the Shimano on my SS winter bike so they get the worst treatment - no issues with them and just a clean and a re-grease every year - which is what I would do with any serviceable/maintainable part anyway.