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I spent yesterday at Glentress and had an amazing time. After doing most of the red we went back up to do the blue. On the descent from the Buzzard's Nest there were kids strewn all over the trails.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to get kids out there but they need the fundamentals of trail safety drummed into them before they get there and constantly while they're there, much like I remember my Dad doing when he took me golfing as a youngster.
First and foremost, when you stop don't stand around in the middle of the bloody trail. There are people coming down there at serious speeds. After coming around one corner at speed I was confronted by a girl in her early teens, sitting on her bike smack in the middle of the berm. Getting slowed down is annoying but them's the breaks. The potential consequences of someone coming round there too fast and not being able to stop in time don't bear thinking about.
To be fair, a couple of corners later there was a guy with two boys, one of which was hurriedly pulling his bike to the side as a the guy urgently said "Up, up, up, up!!" which strikes me as a bit more like the thing. Kids don't think of the dangers, it's up to the adults with them to impress the hazards on the children in their charge.
Dunno about etiquette, but some common sense wouldn't go amiss.
Well I'm fifteen and I just wish the middle aged men would get out of my way too!
You see if you were out on some natural trails or walkers paths would your reaction be the same? If not, why not?
Its not just kids do that one.
Goan - yes - even on a "natural trail" if you stop either on foot or bicycle you should move to the edge / off the trail
LOL @ Tootin
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings 😉
Walkers have an excuse IMO, when I'm walking I tend to forget that there may be folks on bikes.
Besides, there's an awful lot of inconsiderate MTBers about. I ride with a few 😕
There are two separate issues here:
1/ That could be a fallen rider in the middle of the path. Safety dictates that you should always be able to stop in the distance you can see. This does not seem to have been a problem in this case - Resin42 was able to stop but was just frustrated at the lack of progress.
2 / GT is a MTB trail centre with tracks laid out specifically for cyclists. There is a general expectation that some riders will be going faster than others and it's just courtesy to let faster folk have their fun. The same would be true at a swimming pool laid out with lanes and the same applies while walking in the countryside. Don't block the path and let faster walkers through.
First and foremost you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. If you really must ride something blind flat out get a watcher to help. The kids on the trail aren't the problem - you are and your attitude are Resin.
TJ - should you really? Why's that then? Surely part of responsible access is not riding in a way that might endanger others. Sitting in the middle of a path doesn't endanger others. I'm betting that you've sat down on many paths in the time you were hill walking.
I think if you want to go as fast as you can you should enter races! No kids getting in your way then!
Its just common sense, you get it anywhere there is a bit of speed involved and easy access for people without any experience.
The best thing you can do is be friendly and remind them that they are not stopped in the best place. I've hit a few people snowboarding and its awkward when you hit somebody and its not your fault.
Its just common courtesy to leave the path clear when you stop. Nothing to do with safety as you should be able to stop in the space you can see - but it is irritating to find the path blocked by folk who with a little thought could have left you space to get by.
Goan - no never. I was taught to step of the path to stop and I always do.
Basic courtesy
[i]I've hit a few people snowboarding and its awkward when you hit somebody and its not your fault. [/i]
Read the piste rules before you go out again. It is your fault as you must giveway to anyone downhill of you. An Austrian minister did exactly what you did and killed a woman. Cost him dear.
Why do i always seem to be in the way of fast middle aged men and faster teenagers.
Edukator,
I'll remind myself of that the next time I sail over a tabletop to find some beaming mong traversing across the landing.
TJ - nonsense.
"Edukator - Member
First and foremost you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. If you really must ride something blind flat out get a watcher to help. The kids on the trail aren't the problem - you are and your attitude are Resin."
Was wondering who'd go down this route first. As my post states, I didn't hit her because I was going at a speed I could control. As druidh said, there could be an injured rider in your path (and I've been that rider), all riders should be prepared for that. I'm not convinced all riders are. In any case, this is unavoidable. Someone standing around like a fart in a trance is entirely avoidable. Why put create a risk that doesn't need to be there? I see very little wrong with this attitude.
Goan - no -= basic courtesy and it trailcraft - two things you clearly have none of.
To say rubbish when I tell you what I do is just morte of your arrogant rubbish.
druidh - Member.......................and it's just courtesy to let faster folk have their fun. The same would be true at a swimming pool laid out with lanes and the same applies while walking in the countryside. Don't block the path and let faster walkers through.
Shandy, the tabletop will probably be in a supervised snow park and the pisteur won't let you go unless the landing is clear because there were so many selfish idiots leaping into the unknown they've been forced to clamp down. If it isn't you'll be one hundred percent responsible for the accident you cause. Your attitude is selfish and dangerous.
Resin42 - Member
Was wondering who'd go down this route first. As my post states, I didn't hit her because I was going at a speed I could control. As druidh said, there could be an injured rider in your path (and I've been that rider), all riders should be prepared for that. I'm not convinced all riders are. In any case, this is unavoidable. Someone standing around like a fart in a trance is entirely avoidable. Why put create a risk that doesn't need to be there? I see very little wrong with this attitude.
Absolutely.
[i]Why put create a risk that doesn't need to be there? I see very little wrong with this attitude. [/i]
That clearly wasn't the attitude I have an issue with. The attitude I have issues with is people inventing their own set of rules that they then apply to others. These etiquette rants just demostrate what intolerant and selfish adults are out on the trails.
I'm happy to see kids out on trails and really don't mind slowing down for them a bit.
Where is this supervised snow park?!
The first instance was somebody who ducked a rope and traversed into the landing of a tabletop with a blind takeoff. That guy had cuts to his legs, I had a strained shoulder.
The second was a guy who was stopped at the side of the piste and suddenly decided to rejoin the piste without looking, whilst talking to his mate over his downhill shoulder. I up-ended him but neither of us were really hurt. His pole was snapped which he had a good whinge about.
The point I am trying to make is that no matter how safe you try to be there are clueless people around who have absolutely no common sense.
"Absolutely" incapable of thinking for yourself littlebunnygirl. If you've got something to add, add away.
Edukator - Member
Why put create a risk that doesn't need to be there? I see very little wrong with this attitude.That clearly wasn't the attitude I have an issue with. The attitude I have issues with is people inventing their own set of rules that they then apply to others. These etiquette rants just demostrate what intolerant and selfish adults are out on the trails.
I'm happy to see kids out on trails and really don't mind slowing down for them a bit.
And neither do I, like I said, in my first post, just up the top of the page. Are you finding fault in what [i]I'm[/i] saying or etiquette posts in general?
My point is if you're taking your kids into a potentially dangerous environment you should be arming them with the "road sense" they need to stay as safe as possible.
My favourite snow park for a start.
Shandy, your first incident would have resulted in a long series events - care to relate what happened from the point you were both lying on the floor with respect to the pisteurs, medics, gendarmes and insurance (or Retungsdienst etc depending on where you were).The second was all your fault, you hit someone on a piste downhill of you.
Just Tell the Little ****ers to get out of the way, they will soon get the idea! I don;t know do they do trail etiquette in parenting classes these days. 🙄
it's good manners to move off the trail if you're not moving regardless of how old you are and there are people of all ages who need reminding of this
after all, you don't stand around in the middle of a road chatting, do you?
they are def in the minority but there is nearly always some clueless/blinkered/rude/inconsiderate/selfish/up their own arse/****er* at GT at the weekend - MTFU & deal with them at the time, not from behind a lame forum persona.
*delete as appropriate 😉
Ignoring the skier-fight that is going on, yes to the main bit of the original point. Whilst if you're riding it is obviously your responsibility to avoid hitting people round corners, and people in front of you don't necessarily have to get out of your way, anyone with half a brain will get off the trail if they've stopped, and if you're taking kids out on trails, it's worth making sure they do, as the person behind you may well not be riding responsibly. To be honest, I've taken adult beginners on rides and had to mention this to them too, I don't think it is just kids, it is just inexperienced people who don't think about the risk. The other thing to remember about kids is that often they are out with quite inexperienced people taking them round, their parents might not be thinking about this either, especially on the easy routes.
In terms of getting out of the way, I think if you are not riding, then fair enough it is polite to let people past. If you are still on the bike, then I am happy to let you pootle until you get to the end of a section, we were all slow once, and it is only one bit of trail. People pootling are often a bit scared, and you shouldn't force them to stop and start all the time just because there are faster riders out there. Although it was pretty infuriating last time I rode cannock, to be sitting behind some poor very slow biker all through the first singletrack section of Follow the Dog until it was wide enough to overtake, and I was on a unicycle, I can see it must be a bit exasperating on a bike.
Joe
Common sense + being aware of other trail users dictates that if you are going to stop (out of choice) - do so in a safe, responsible + thoughtful manner. You could apply this rule to walking, cycling or even driving on a public road.
As Resin said in his original post he was riding in a controlled manner so had no problem stopping when he encountered people in the middle of the trail. Probably a lack of knowing the correct thing to do on the part of the "trail blockers". Perhaps a friendly word (as someone has already suggested) might point them in the right direction with there future stopping locations. Also I dont think age comes into it. I am sure there are just as many inexperienced adults who don't know their "trail etiquette" - so let's help them understand the best way to keep everyone happy out on the MTB trails (of course in a friendly manner!).
I find a rant about [i]kids strewn all over the trails[/i] indicative of a personality disorder. The trail doesn't belong to you it's there to be shared. Trail courtesey includes being tolerant of and helpful towards newbies. You could have given a bit of your time and politely offered friendly advice.
we went back up to do the blue. - After coming around one corner at speed I was confronted by a girl in her early teens, sitting on her bike smack in the middle of the berm.
What would you expect to find at a TC on a weekend on the blue run, I think it's wonderful that trail centers have these graded trails so families and kids can get out there. Just a shame that there's always some wannabe XC racer coming around a corner at speed. You want to go around corners at speed? Stick a number on and lets see how fast you really are.
Personality disorder? As long as you're keeping it in perspective.
Fair enough though, I could have done as you said but the riders were backing up behind me at this point and the adrenaline was flowing, I doubt I would have been as polite as I should have at this point. Plus Scottish parents tend to be a bit chippy about people telling their kids what to do.
I'll also take joe's point that the parents aren't necessarily experienced. I still reckon they have a responsibility to know what they're getting their kids into and keep them as safe as possible.
@ Smarty. Seriously, WTF?
Edukator
Where are the supervised snow parks please?
The second was all your fault, you hit someone on a piste downhill of you.
Second that when you are on a ski slope you as uphill glider have to make sure you cross/overtake people with due care.
You want to be able to ram down ski slope/trail centre, well that's easy get a race plate on, or go first thing first on a week day.
As for the OP I think that complaning that people may fall/take it easy on a BLUE (it mean it's an easy trail you know) trail it's like complaning that london is expensive and full of people.
If you really want to go as fast as you can without being strangled by people learing, may I suggest that you ride on the Black rather than blue, or even better, enter DH cup races.
First time, I got up, he lay there rolling around a bit. His dad came over, I shrugged the shoulders and explained there wasn't a lot I could do about it. He seemed happy enough and we helped the guy to the side of the run to sort himself out. They seemed happy enough so I left.
Second time, it was a middle aged English gent. He shouted "You've snapped my bloody pole". I said "You weren't even looking where you were going, where you?". His mates all laughed at him. We went our seperate ways.
In France they have the old-fashioned opinion that if you are acting a bit stupid and get injured in the process you don't automatically have the right to legal recourse or compensation. I'm sure the EU will pass a directive soon to ensure that everyone remains motionless at the scene until accident investigators can arrive and summarily execute the guilty party.
Google "supervised snow-park", "supervised snow park" or "supervised snowpark" Sprootlet. There are plenty, a majority even, but I'd rather not reveal which ones I frequent.
I'll make an effort to keep it in perspective Resin42. In a perfect world parents [b]would[/b] take more responsibility for their kids. The trails may be out in the wilds but they're still a part of our society with all its issues.
I have ridden parks all over the world and even in the States I have never come across somebody standing around with a clipboard and a whistle, commanding the troops.
Edukator I would suggest that there aren't many of them about and that you are, in fact, talking shite.
juan - MemberAs for the OP I think that complaning that people may fall/take it easy on a BLUE (it mean it's an easy trail you know) trail it's like complaning that london is expensive and full of people.
Cardinal sin - not reading the OP.
It wasn't a complaint about folk going slow - Resin42 even said "them's the breaks". It was about folk having stopped in the middle of the trail and not getting them/their children out of the way.
Most amusing Shandy. You seem to have a misguided view of piste law in France. Suicide is legal, breaking the rules and injuring others will see you in court, and claiming the downhill skier was being stupid will get you nowhere.
[i]Accident de ski, collision entre skieurs, Responsabilité du skieur amont, défaut de maitrise, Responsabilité entière du skieur amont. Cour d’appel de Chambéry 11 septembre 2007.
Un moniteur de ski évoluait avec ses élèves sur une piste de ski lorsqu’il a été heurté par un autre skieur amont et blessé.
Le skieur amont a donc commis une faute en ne s’assurant pas qu’il pouvait amorcer un virage sans danger.
En tout état de cause et sur le fondement de l’article 1384 alinéa 1er du code civil, la responsabilité du skieur est entière dans la mesure forment un ensemble et ou le déplacement de celui-ci dépend étroitement de ses skis, de telle sorte que ce sont bien ses skis qui sont l’instrument du dommage.
Ce régime permet ainsi à la victime d’être indemnisée sans avoir à démontrer la faute de la personne qui l’a percutée.
Cette dernière ne pourra s’exonérer de sa responsabilité qu’en prouvant l’existence d’un cas de force majeure ou d’une cause étrangère…[/i]
Cardinal sin - not reading the OP.
Carinal sin misreading my reply 😉
I can see why you prefer to keep your location secret. Being such a gaping asshole has obviously left you slightly paranoid. There is also no point in quoting French law as they will ignore/apply their laws as it suits them.
People hit each other on the hills of Europe every day. Most of those incidents don't lead to legal proceedings because most people are prepared to take some level of responsibilty for their own stupidity.