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flatfish we've seen that but think a bit of pride and passion and anger at loosing is a good thing.
Trying to disrupt a lead out is legal but not coming into a rider off a line. I'm also fairly sure I've seen Oscar Frier using hi nut to keep his place on Cav's back wheel in a couple of stages.
thats not passion thats petulism
whats petulism
sorry petulent
i think the headbutt incident dean got what was coming for him, throughout the whole incident renshaw was being forced to move left by dean.
I'm not entirely convinced that he saw farrar when he looked back, farrar was very close to him when he did so he would have had to turn his head further to see him. Saying that Renshaw shouldn't have moved off his line whatever, and he must know that by now. Not sure it should have resulted in him being kicked off the tour though, a hefty fine and move him to the back of the bunch in that finish would be fair. It does strike me that the commissars respond a little too quickly to events like this - they could have reviewed it a few more times and announced at 8pm or whatever. Also given what happened to Cav in the incident with Hushovd last year (in which both of them are clearly moving towards each other, along with some poorly laid out barriers which become narrower in the last 200m) it does seem his is unpopular with the commisars.
I've not seen a replay but it looked like Renshaws first contact did the job as Dean backed off. At that point what they both did would be seen as acceptable.
Renshaw didn't need to press the point any further. I think he took his job too far.
if you look at where the incident started and when Dean backed off they had moved a long way over and were fairly close to the barriers.
if you watch Dean, he's leaning on people from about 500m out, not just Renshaw
and you could argue that Renshaw is getting out of the way of Petacchi and maybe he thinks that Farrar is actually Dean
.
anyway, whatever, I'm just annoyed that Cav is going to be without his leadout man
and Jean-François Pescheux looks corrupt too
meh
maybe he thinks that Farrar is actually Dean
Thats my thought either he didnt see the guy or did and thought it was Dean and his blood was up
I've had a couple of looks at the incident (recorded from tv) and he did not back off. It is really tight and he makes no concession to Renshaw. Hey, we weren't in there, but I think Dean keeps the line tight and the red mist comes down.
Just have to wait and see if they talk to the guys and see what actually happened in the appeal. It would be good to see if Cav can use some other wheels and fight for a win without Renshaw, though. His speed in the last 200 is just immense.
If you want messy sprinting you have to go back to Djamolidine Abdoujaparov who just went all over the place. He wouldn't stand a chance of staying in now.
it's a race, trying to disrupt a leadout train is well within the rules but headbutting isn't
Whats the difference between using your elbow and using your head? renshaw didn't really butt Dean, just use his head as a bit of a ram, counteracting what Dean was doing with his elbow.
Sean Kelly thought he did a great job at holding Dean off. 4 Green Jerseys, he knows better than anyone
Whats the difference between using your elbow and using your head?
Working your opponent with your elbow isn't the same as elbowing their teeth out.
renshaw didn't really butt Dean, just use his head as a bit of a ram,
Nope, it's a head butt.
It didn't look like Renshaw was trying to work space for Cav, it just looked like he was trying assault Dean. Fighting for position is one thing, but surely straight up fighting is totally unacceptable.
anyway my 10p is on Lance tomorrow
Prior to seeing the TV pictures and listening to the reports on the news (radio) this morning (in NZ- bit of a fuss as Julian Dean involved) I was expecting it to be a lot worse. Not that it's good or right but getting kicked off the tour seems v.harsh.
Looked fair enough. Nothing but handbags.Maybe he moved over on the run in but it seems very harsh to kick him out of the tour. As said , above ,
Djamolidine Abdoujaparov was a real mobile chicane. How many times did he clip a barrier and take down other riders?
A great finish to a stage. And we're only 1/2 way through
The pushing away with his head was a bit overdone, but that's all it was - a headbutt is when you're trying to injure somebody, and I can't see how they can suggest that was the aim. As the team manager said, how are you supposed to fend off somebody closing in on you like that without taking your hands off the bars? The changing line bit was worse, but certainly no more than others have done in the past - normal punishment being a relegation to the back.
The thing is, had it been anybody other than Renshaw (ie Petachi, Hushovd, or even Cav) with a couple of incidents like that at the finish would they have thrown them off the Tour? I don't think so. ISTM they've punished him that way because they felt it was the only way they could really hurt him, which is the totally wrong way to go about it.
I'm sure they'll appeal, but doubt they'll get anywhere given the appeal goes to the same people who made the original decision (one of them made some comment about the likely success of an appeal for that reason after Cav got relegated last year).
arracer. Your probably right about other riders not being thrown out, but Cav and HTCs previous on this tour wouldn't have helped.
Lets face it we all know he winds them up, and fair enough because he writes cheques his legs can cash. However don't expect any sympathy from the blazers when you over step the mark.
As far as I'm concerned, once Dean starts ****ing about the gloves are off and HTC are fine to do what ever they like so long as it only affects Dean and the chap he's leading out. Which is what they did.
I don't have any problem with it, other than the punishment seems ridiculous; was he thrown out for defending his position or for blocking? The defence was robust, but seemed ok given that it was a response rather than an attack. The block; I don't see the problem with blocking someone who's lead out guy caused the problems to begin with.
You can't 'punish' either Dean or Renshaw because they don't care about anything other than the guy's their leading out and you couldn't punish Cav etc for the indiscretions of another rider. So either chuck them both out, or neither of them. Or choose your least favoured rider and punish 'his' man if you're French.
Just seen the replay on Youtube, and the more I watch it the worse it looks. Renshaw is so out of order it's unbelievable. That sort of riding can end other peoples careers.
As far as I'm concerned, once Dean starts **** about the gloves are off and HTC are fine to do what ever they like so long as it only affects Dean and the chap he's leading out. Which is what they did
Wrong. what Dean tried was well within acceptable boundries and what Renshaw did was acceptable - at first, lets just say he pressed the point home a little to far.
As for his actions only affecting Dean, how could Renshaw possibly know that.
Then there's the block, that's what I'm refering to in my opening. Also Renshaws sit up mid sprint I think was commented on as well.
"petulism" is an excellent word by the way. "Petulance" is correct, but somehow lacking now. I'm going to use petulism in future. 🙂
It's only the third butt that gets Renshaw back where he started, the first two just slow his trajectory towards the barriers, so not a problem as far as I'm concerned.
I didn't talk about his actions affecting Dean, I was talking a bout them affecting the guy Dean was leading out. If Renshaw is out because he deliberatley blocked someone, then he must have known someone was there. So he must have seen them. So it's not a huge leap of faith to surmise that he knew who he was blocking.
Not sure what your point is about Renshaw sitting up?
What's annoying is that Renshaw is too good for that sort of thing, but I'm sure cav will have a back up plan and I still think he can do it.
The sitting up thing might be just my take on it, but he appears to be going almost backwards which is equally dangerous. Even at my level I'll get a massive b*****ing if was to slow like that.
Having watched it several times now [url=
I think Renshaw did a brilliant job. He obviously realised that Cav was definitely blocked to his right and the only way he could get him through was to move Dean back over to the right and let Cav through on the left. It worked, job done.
Hmmm. I don't know how bad it [i]actually[/i] is, I've not a lot of idea about how dangerous that is or feels. But visually the repeated whacking him with his head is terrible. It's so blatant. Again (not having been in such a situation) I can't really pick up what Dean has supposedly done that would seem to justify it. One does wonder whether he'd have been disqualified if Cavendish was friendlier towards the French though. 🙂
So if Renshaw's DQ stands, who will lead Cav out for the rest of the tour? Given he's already the quickest by a margin, plus using it as a means to poke a finger up at Pescheux et ses amis, I wouldn't bet against Cav taking another couple of stages before the tour's done.
Hopefully however without ripping his shirt off and waving it above his head as he crosses the line, displaying 'Free The Renshaw 1' written across his chest. Let the riding do the talking this time......
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Been seeing this in my head ever since.
BD, he was justified using his head to try and keep Dean on his line apart from the last one, which was definitely more of a headbutt than a push. His block of Farrar was dodge too, but no worse than Dean's movement that kicked it all off. I think it's a shame the race jury were so clearly biased, both lead out men should have been relegated, not DQ'd.
If Renshaw gets thrown of the tour for that, then why did these guys just get a $300 fine for this, inconsistent refereeing at best.
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Although I do thin Cav is suffering for building a reputation as a cock, in the end thats his own fault.
For all people who think it was wrong, cheating and deserves to be out I have a question.
Explain how renshaw can defend his line? Leaning is dangerous and likely to cause a crash. You can't take your hands of the bars. Elbows are usually used but with Dean already using his it would have most likely brought Renshaw down if he tried to use his. He improvised by using his head to push Dean back over so he could keep the door open for Cav. The headbutt was necessary becasue a small tap and dean would not have got the message.
What Renshaw then did was only what Dean was trying to do, put him into the barrier. So Dean should be kicked out too. Plus he was leading out poorly as farrar wasn't on his wheel!
The directors have to treat every rider equally, regardless of who they ride for and how good they are. If that happened in a breaway group the rider would not have been sent home. Yes the only thing to do was ban him as no other punishment would have been an implication to the team but its has to be same for all riders.
Will HTC Columbia compete today? They have a strong feeling of teamwork and with a man unfairly (imo) sent home I would pull the team out of the Tour.
I think HTC are going to do all they can to win the green now. I'm half expecting a HTC train to do a stage getting intermediate sprints. lets be honest, this tours had everything else, why not this!
MS for a start I don't think anyone would call it cheating. The problem is AFAIK there are no actual guidelines for this sort of thing and all the pros know they're actions will be judged by race officials.
As I've said Dean came off line and Renshaw put him back, that much is normally acceptable. If it had stopped there nothing would have been said.
Renshaw went too far. However like you I don't think if it was anyone else they'd have been sent home. Renshaw I suspect is paying the price of being associated with Cav and his behavior, everything from the two fingers to causing crashes. Now that said Renshaw is a great lead out man, a professional and he didn't need to take those actions right under the noses of the officials. I mean did he think he could do that every stage?
Agree with you oldgit.
The Tour directors have always hated sucessful riders...Lance to mention one.
IMO Cav got penalised harshly last year for pinning Thor in the barrier, although it was the barrier that pinned him!
If sprints dont have a bit of argy bargey then they will just be a procession with whoever is team on the front will end up winning.
Last place in group and fine for Renshaw and for the blocking. And basically a warning that if you do that again your out.
Pretty easy to say that Renshae saw Farrar, maybe he did maybe he didnt as he was in the blind spot as I would say. Still should be penalised for it but getting sent home for that is out of order.
Bloody French!!!!
Not sure myself, on the one hand the head-butting was way OTT and hard for the commissaries to ignore but on the other it's clear Garmin don't have a hope in hell of winning a sprint without interfering with the HTC train, either by forcing their way into it or by forcing it into the barriers. At least Lampre tried something different with Hondo going off the front the other day, Garmin just want to barge in (and Sky don't seem to have a clue).
Elbowing and shoulder barging are commonly allowed but head-butting is a bit too obvious IMO :p Renshaw did need to defend his line though and as Dean was half a bike in front he couldn't really elbow (see Cav's ToS crash for what could happen).
It would be cool if Cav could just sit in on Lampre or Garmin's train now and jump them but it's pretty likely he'd get muscled out and blocked as he's not exactly big.
Agree with MS - a bit of argy bargy is usual in the sprint; they've been quite spice this year.
I suspect it was the combination of 3 very obvious headbutts with, what appeared to be, deliberate blocking of Farrar.
I think it was mostly down to the risk of bringing the whole peloton down (again).