Think of it this way.
You insure a barrel of Brent Crude oil in 1995 at $15.88, you have the misfortune to have that stolen. You are covered new for old. They don't take the $15.88 and add inflation or any such shit, they give you a new barrell of oil, which happens to be worth $104.73 today. The numbers are actually irrelevant.
If there's wear and tear included on that they still don't base the settlement on the $15.88, they just say that actually you probably spilt a bit of that oil over the last 20 years, so we'll give you $95. This means you cannot afford to buy a direct replacement for what you had before, you are left out of pocket slightly, or buy less than a full barrel.
I can't believe folk are advocating the latter, the shop really does need to cover new for old. The perceived quality of newer stuff is completely irrelevant, the actual monetary value is irrelevant, the OP should be restored to the situation he was in before.
My insurance company just paid out on a stolen custom build bike that they were unable to source from Wheelies. I sent them the spec and thought initially that they would pay out on that but then they wanted a bike shop to effectively quote for my build spec and that is what they paid out on.
I just plugged every component of the build into CRC and sent them the bill and in theory got everything I had before down the the Hope bashring, ODI grips and dual ply tyres...
If it was me and the shop would co-operate I'd get a frame from [url= http://www.bikescene.co.uk/SPECIALIZEDCLEARANCEFRAMES-92.html ]Bikescene spesh frame sale[/url] e.g. Camber or Stumpjumper and get it built up with XT groupset etc and I reckon you could do that for £2.5K easy.
I can't believe folk are advocating the latter, the shop really does need to cover new for old. The perceived quality of newer stuff is completely irrelevant, the actual monetary value is irrelevant, the OP should be restored to the situation he was in before.
Scenario A, he gets an SLX groupset, however hanging off a better, newer frame with full bike dealer/manufacturer warranty, with new forks, tyres, pads, brakes.
I don't see why you're getting hung up on him getting 'the same' for some of the bits when it's quite clear he's getting a newer frame/forks/BB/Crankset/wheels etc instead. So yes, he's losing out on not having XT, having to put up with SLX, but he's got a brand new frame and bike.
I still can't see how even with a slightly lower spec groupset, he's not miles better off.
weeksy - MemberI still can't see how even with a slightly lower spec groupset, he's not miles better off.
It's simply down to opinion weeksy. You might think he's going to be on a better bike, but he might think that the bike he lost was the best bike he'll ever ride, so why should he be forced into something lower spec. That's why this argument has gone on for 4 pages - even we, the cyclists, can't agree.
Put it another way..... if he never rode the bike but just walked past it, patting the saddle, pleased in the knowledge that he had a pretty much top-end bike with an almost top end spec. He might even be really sad and put it on his wall to look at and never, ever sit on it. So again, why should he expect someone to lose his bike and be given something that's not the same level. Nothing to do with function, nothing to do with actual monetary value, all to do with opinion. He might just want it to boast to his mates that he's got a top-end bike, not some mid-range crowd-pleaser.
If I had a 1st generation Colnago C40 art deco stolen and replaced with a mid-range Trek - because it's functionally exactly the same, weighs the same, etc - I'd be furious.
I don't see why you're getting hung up on him getting 'the same' for some of the bits when it's quite clear he's getting a newer frame/forks/BB/Crankset/wheels etc instead
But why is that inherently better? The new Stumpjumper frames aren't lighter, the whole bike has more travel (and Epic being a more direct equivalent), but again the whole thing is heavier, the groupset was new, so he just gets a downgrade there. Again I'll give the example of my Madone - having ridden a 2013 Ultegra Di2 version it was heavier and not as nice to ride as mine, yes it's newer, and retail cost is £2k more than mine was, but so what?
That just isn't how things work, new for old means like for like, it's not just about providing a similar item, with the 'selling point' being the age of the item.
Because it comes with full dealer/manf' warranty ?
Has the OP stated what he wants yet?
There has been a lot of poo slinging in here, yet no one has asked the obvious question:
OP - Can you please list the exact components of your build, and their approximate age?
Until people know the EXACT makeup of the stolen bike no one can really say if 2.5k is good value or not. There are a lot of different types on STW - Some would consider any product that's over 6 months old "out of date" and others would consider last years model "Bang up to date".
Without a proper detailed rundown of the components and their age, no one can speculate as to the worth of this stolen bike!
From what the OP has said an ali frame bike for adventure racing, new xt drive chain and new wheels.
Custom build of something like a Kinesis (29er) with decent rockshox forks xt kit and hope wheels ought to be covered by that as Specialized don't do somethingthat matches the needs anymore.
With a 2.5k payment working on trade prices you'd be getting alot of kit there that's Trade price not rrp which maybe why people are getting confused about what I've said prevciously.
In responce to Chips earlier comment about 'palming people off' with some old rubbish it's rather rude tbh, the one and only shock that Royal mail lost a couple of years ago, a few year old Van RC that had been serviced, was replaced with a CCDB (brand new I might add) Which I think you'd agree was reasonable 😉
Because it comes with full dealer/manf' warranty ?
So?
Without a proper detailed rundown of the components and their age, no one can speculate as to the worth of this stolen bike!
The worth is bascially irrelevant. What's that, 50th time now? The OP should be getting a bike with new kit akin to the old one. It doesn't matter if it had 1993 XT, some Q21s and was completely wrecked, he should get the new equivalent of that. Whether that costs £3.50 or £15,000 is immaterial. Really, it is. It's new for old.
The only point that becomes relevant is if the OP decides he wants the cash instead, at which point they should still be offering a settlement to purchase a new equivalent, not the value of the old item.
Dear Stinking,
I am sorry for your loss.
This thread should now be allowed to rest in peace.
Gogg
Without a proper detailed rundown of the components and their age, no one can speculate as to the worth of this stolen bike!
That's the point, and it's irrelevant.
The shop has quoted to their insurance company that his bike would cost them £2500 to replace on a new-for-old scheme. THEY, as in the shop, ARE ABLE to REPLACE the SAME SPEC AS NEW that he had on his old bike.
Everything else is irrelevant.
He is due a branded (Spec/Trek/Giant etc), 100mm ish travel XC/Trail bike fitted with a full XT groupset and equivalent wheels. Some minor details may need some negotiation with the shop but I imagine they can get a "near-enough" model and change a front mech etc to keep the customer happy.
If the customer is not happy, they'll be out of pocket by the excess and out of pocket as he'll not return to do more business.
Sorry for starting such a big argument...
Ok, as my bike was a custom build, the LBS claimed it as a bike spec rather than as an actual off the peg bike, so;
2004 stumpy pro frame + seatpost and saddle
2006 rockshox duke forks
M785 XT groupset + pedals
M785 XT brakes with centre lock rotors
M785 XT hubs, nukeproof 650b TR rims, DT swiss comp spokes
Hope headset
Easton bars and kore stem (not sure of models)
Brakes and wheels have never been ridden. Drivetrain was about 2 months old. Parts were bought and fitted by the same shop (I can get cheaper online but wanted to support the LBS ironically).
As people have pointed out, I don't see the current stumpy frame as much of an improvement. It's a different bike and much less XC.
Although I can't replace my bike new for 2.5k, I'm happy to go with a SH/ex display epic and a new groupset and wheels, which is essentially what I had before (old frame + forks, new components and wheels), but with a newer frame (not concerned with carbon as it may get knocked about during race transit). It just means fussing about and building myself rather than the LBS being able to replace my bike themselves.
I've already told the LBS this, I'm still waiting for them to sort it out with the insurance...
Oh, also one of the guys at the LBS loaned me his bike for the day for a race. I was in a team so didn't want to let the team down. We came second in category so he was pleased his bike came second =D
All sounds positive (aside of the initial loss obviously)
Hope it gets sorted quickly now, as for starting an arguement, it's STW isn't it 😉
Glad you have found a solution that works for you.
For insurance purposes, I insure (and pay the premium for) my bike at full retail cost; not what it's worth on the classifieds or in the sales (and I suspect most on here do). If I did not have a new for old policy, I'd be updating the value for insurance purposes every year (downwards).
The value of my used bike is irrelevant as I have a NEW for OLD policy.
I wouldn't accept lesser spec forks, wheels or even cheaper pedals regardless of wether the proposed replacement frame is considered by some to be in some way "better".
The worth is bascially irrelevant. What's that, 50th time now?
No you've misunderstood me,
That's the point, and it's irrelevant.
As have you,
I'm not saying or trying to argue new for old.
What i'm trying to discover whether in reality he's got a good deal or not with the 2.5k.
It could turn out the OPs "new XT" was 3 years old and due for replacement, in which case he's probably cashed in and should count his blessings. Yes its new for old but by inflating the worth of his bike and claiming more than it's worth "realistically" - don't forget it's everyone else who ends up paying for it anyway through increased bike premiums for insurance.
Again, I'm not arguing new for old, I'm just trying to figure if OP got a good deal in the first place and should count his blessings - or if he really should be pushing for exact replacement.
Yes its new for old but by inflating the worth of his bike and claiming more than it's worth "realistically"
No, now you're misunderstanding new for old, he's not "inflating" the value, and what it's worth is what a replacement costs - see the oil example. People are getting too hung up on the cost, which is just a product of market economics, it's a number, which doesn't mean much unless the OP doesn't want a replacement.
There is absolutely no consideration of the condition in the settlement. It's not "new equivalent considering the condition of old". Whether it's utterly trashed and due for replacement or factory fresh doesn't matter one iota. This is one of the reasons insurance fraud can be lucrative. However, that is how it works. Fact.
Not sure if this is the time to admit that I work for a very large multinational insurance company...
So what's it worth??
😉
So what's it worth??
It's worth an XC-biased, XT equipped, mid range mountain bike to the OPs satisfaction.
Loco, the impression I got from your posts were, his bike was worth £500 if he was lucky and should be grateful for what ever he is given.
If I sent you a 2006 RS rev and someone sneaked in and nicked it.
Would you send me a brand new 2013 rev,
Or
Send me a fork of equal value of what you think a 2006 rev would go for on the classifieds.
I don't wish to be personal.
He's set out his stall on what he did on the one occasion it went wrong.
Seems like he looked after his customer pretty well.
That is why I found it strange he took the stance he did.
Indeed, he's arguing a completely different point here to the action he actually took when faced with the situation, which is stupid.
But that's his business and his choice....
I guess that's why he has such a great reputation.
😀
No not at all, the insurance on the lost shock covered the replacement ccdb at trade price ( including spring and hardware) too, so the point I have made repeatedly is that £2500 at trade price will get the OP what he wants and maybe higher spec.
Which is what I'd expect the shop to do.
This is the issue with forums, emails and non face to face communications that anything said can be misunderstood or just ignored.
Anyway I'm on holiday now so have a good weekend.
Mods, do us all a favour a close this thread so the kids can get back to their sandpit.
OP, I hope you get this sorted to [u]your[/u] satisfaction.
Not sure if this is the time to admit that I work for a very large multinational insurance company...
I knew there was something shifty about you. 😛
Foiled 😳
LoCo - Member
This is the issue with forums, emails and non face to face communications that anything said can be misunderstood or just ignored.
Indeed. But your problem is that your posts represent your business and some of them suggest a lot less empathy or understanding of your customers than I'd expect. This, for instance, I have a real problem with:
LoCo - Member
I expect they'll give the op a 2.5k (trade price) bike so he'll get something nice as it'll be less hassle and they won't loose to much money [b]as they'll have lost half day labour sorting it out.
[/b]
Really? 🙄
I am genuinely suspicious that you are supporting the shop because you know the owners? You are based a short drive away from Cardiff I believe?
He's not necessarily taking the shop's side. The shop is probably mindful of the fact that they have had to sink a lot of hours into fixing their mistake and don't want it to take up any more time during the busy season.
And because it's 4am, I've got insomnia and I'm bored.... 🙄
I still can't see where the shop got £2500 from. (And £2.5k retail, not trade it seems!)
2004 stumpy pro frame + seatpost and saddle
2006 rockshox duke forks
M785 XT groupset + pedals
M785 XT brakes with centre lock rotors
M785 XT hubs, nukeproof 650b TR rims, DT swiss comp spokes
Hope headset
Easton bars and kore stem (not sure of models
A full XT gruppo retails at £800 according to Merlin.
What's the equivalent of a Duke? Revelation @ £400ish?
A couple of £hundred for wheels?
Bars, stem, seatpost, saddle - £100 - 150ish?
Tyres, tubes, cables, grips, headset etc - £120?
...
That leaves a chunk under a grand to fit a frame in there somewhere. A decent FS frame for something like £800?
stinkingdylan, sorry my friend but you are being royally ripped off.
The 2.5k figure is from the shops insurance, not the opinion of the shop.
There is no way to build a new bike to the same spec on the 2.5k budget (as far as I know, not without some excellent bargains/deals).
I've decided to buy a second hand bike, then replace the wheels, groupset and brakes (and whatever else may need replacing). Can easily do this given the 2.5k and some bargain hunting on components (and essentailly gets me to the same position minus 2+ months of riding and a fair bit a hassle).
Currently still waiting on the shops insurance which is annoying as I was expecting them to sort the issue with me and then claim via their insurance.
