Ebikes are fugly as. Doesn't matter whether they've made "effort" - they're unavoidably ugly compared to bikes.
Ebikes are a bit like vapes. Nobody looks cool vaping - they look like berks 🙂
I'd argue this one doesn't look too bad
^^you see I think that's pretty good, a lot of the "just a bit of assistance" type road bikes look quite nice.
Specifically re Santa Cruz – wouldn’t they have had to pay a fair bit for r&d on test mules as well as the costs associated with the new frame mould. They will presumably want to recoup that outlay as quickly as possible to bring new models out going forward.
Serious question rather than a dig: from a business perspective could you create a bird ebike (new front triangle, shock curve and tune to suit the bike etc) and justify selling it for £1k more than an equivalently specced standard bike now?
Yes they would have spent some money on moulds, test rigs etc. Excluding the man hours the capital cost is probably about 10 top end model monies worth! Its not as expensive as people might have you think.
For us, we're aiming straight at the Turbo Levo SL market with a lighter weight motor on a lighter weight frame, and yes when/if we launch one it will be priced like we took a regular bike and added a motor, not a whole extra bike 😉
when/if we launch one
You might have trouble with the name, birdE already make folding bikes.
Serious question – There’s aspirational at 3/4/5k, then there’s a 6.5K starting price. Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome? Yes I appreciate e-bikes are cheaper from other brands, but what we’re seeing is a move to a whole different level of attainable. Even if you can afford it now you have to seriously question the value. For someone looking at a stretch purchase its now totally off limits.
Santa Cruz is not the right brand to consider when discussing this question as they are at the top end of the market in terms of pricing (the carbon Bronson frame this bike is based on costs a whopping £2639).
There are are base-level e-mtbs at that aspirational £3/4K level such as the Vitus E-Sommet, Spesh Levo, YT Decoy etc. Whether they are good value or not is up to the consumer as with any purchase.
Interesting comments @benpinnick The cynic in me often wonders whether the enthusiasm for ebikes from some manufacturers might be about getting customers used to paying more for bikes.
Since you are thinking of producing one you're presumably seeing a demand from your customers and are confident that demand will last, which is interesting. As I said, I can't see the point in them, but I guess plenty of people can.
I agree that some of the road offerings look OK and I did (briefly) toy with the idea when I bought my latest grave/adventure/whatever bike. Initially there was some appeal. I could have the comfort of those wider tyres and a more upright position but still be as fast as on my "race" bike. But I get a certain satisfaction from a 100 mile ride, which would be diminished if I knew the motor had done some of the work.
still be as fast as on my “race” bike.
Not without finding those 100mi rides much more taxing as all the motor would be doing is weighing you down, unless you're slow on said race bike. (or the bike isn't restricted to 15mph)
Ah, good point. I hadn't even considered that. It is hilly enough round here so it might still work out to be a benefit, but you are right, the logic on a "fast" road bike is even more tricky. Depends whether there is any drag when the motor cuts out I guess.
What’s the ratio at the moment, do we know?
30%? Of new sales / sales growth vs last year it's growing all the time. Of the bikes on the trails it's lower as you say, will lag behind for a few years.
The cynic in me often wonders whether the enthusiasm for ebikes from some manufacturers might be about getting customers used to paying more for bikes.
Not cynical ... the power system adds a big chunk but there's no bike brand out there that doesn't welcome the hike in average selling prices. It's as much customer demand as sales push though. The value for the customer is there at the entry-mid level, you spend more but get more. £12k worth here? It's like a £70k car isn't it. Luxury spend. But every brand will get onto it imo - for the mid to large companies that can do them well there's just no brand positioning to be had by stubbornly staying with non-powered bikes only - unless you're a pure XC race brand, and who uses XC and climbing for marketing now?
£12k worth here? It’s like a £70k car isn’t it. Luxury spend.
I dont think it is though. Of the 12k a very small proportion is in the bit Santa Cruz make, whereas your 70k car is (ignoring the factory it comes from) made by the car maker. You're buying into every switch, cable and engine part. You're buying into the assembly, aftercare and resale value. On the bike, you're basically paying for a £3000* frame with £9000 worth of someone elses parts on it. That don't cost £9000 to buy and assemble. For anyone. And thats the issue I see. If eBikes are the catalyst for once moderately expensive brands to leap to a whole new level of expensive, then that I fear will be the damaging legacy of eBikes, not whether they rip up trails more/less/the same.
* I dont know if the frame has a price, but that would be reasonable.
Edit - its worth saying its happened before with say Specialized selling bikes that cost more than the sum of their parts, but that hasn't caught on, but with EBikes they seem to be trying it again (no Specialized though, interestingly).
On the bike, you’re basically paying for a £3000* frame with £9000 worth of someone elses parts on it. That don’t cost £9000 to buy and assemble. For anyone.
i'm suprised that there aren't really any frame only options for e-bikes.
I dont think it is though.
Not in that sense I agree. More in sense of price positioning - price as marketing as much as anything, 'the best is most expensive'. Not saying it's good value in my eyes, but it's all subjective. Also not an option for many brands to price product that way.
i’m suprised that there aren’t really any frame only options for e-bikes.
Indeed. Folk who have already built up a high-spec analogue bike might find it easier/cheaper to move to assisted riding if they could take all/most of their parts with them. I guess there's simply less money to be made that way.
I guess the decision to use the CC frame is part of this move to push the price up. Using a frame material that is a fair bit more expensive but only saves 200g on a bike with a motor seems daft. Then, when they are questioned about the range on the battery they say that you can always carry a spare as it's only an extra 3Kg in your pack 🙂
Its one of the reasons that we're looking at lower power, lighter options. The big motors (which I personally think have only got a few years left in them before the smaller ones offer natural ride feel & equal ride time but thats an aside) have a tendency to destroy everything - drive/wheels etc. Lower power motors will get us back to a point where we're able to be weight weenies, and obsess over grams, and constantly swap bits around, which is as important as the ride... well sort of. Anyway, it makes a motorised frame possible. You will be stuck with my choice of motor, but otherwise go nuts.
Using a frame material that is a fair bit more expensive but only saves 200g on a bike with a motor seems daft.
Not when you look at how much it costs to make a carbon frame vs alu and then look at how much they sell for. Then you know why Yeti stopped making Alu.
You will be stuck with my choice of motor, but otherwise go nuts.
Do it 🙂
I've no doubt there would be a market for this.
The Lappiere with the Fazua motor appeals more to me.
Same sort of weight as a heavy trail/Enduro bike but with assistance.
And once battery runs out or removed pedals more like a normal bike.
My feeling is that there is no right or wrong, it does not matter what any of us think. You can get a Mountain bike for under £1k or anything through to £12k , you can have a motor or not , Person A thinks Bike Y is ugly and Person B thinks its pretty - neither is right or wrong. Your not being forced into spending £10k or restricted to spending £600 so no point in bitching about the cost of £10k+ bikes - its called choice, and we have a wide ranging choice - the last few years has seen the growth of very good £1k-£2k bikes so there is more great choices than ever.
The thing to remember is this is Fun, you dont need a £10k bike to have fun , fun can be had on a £600 hardtail (possibly more fun depending on how you look at it) so buy at the price point you can afford and justify to yourself and then go and have fun.
So tell me - has geex been banned? or is my killfile just working well?
Geex is sadly missed, indeed.
I would expect Santa Cruz are using the cc carbon on this one to recoup the cost of investment in new tools/motors and the like.
Once the first batch of big ticket bikes are sold then the c variant and even possibly alu versions will appear.
Personally I think (hope) the fact that there are still some boutique brands missing from the e bike market is keeping the price of the bikes artificially high. The fact that the tech still isn't 'really' mature yet is keeping them away and the manufacturers who are selling e bikes are making some money on the high demand/interest in them.
The lighter/smaller motor and battery combo bikes appeal to me (really like the look of the Levo SL) but again, until there are more of this style of bike on the market the price will stay high.
I'm more disappointed that they have sullied the Heckler name as an e bike! I really wanted to see some single pivots return from them in the future with that historic name but hey ho....
If you are missing geex you can find him upsetting people on the EMTB website forums
I'm guessing frame only (,i.e including motor) doesn't work from a warranty/support/ letting someone wire everything up themselves point of view
I don’t see why you couldn’t supply everything pre fitted. I just assume that the ‘frame’ price would be so hideously bad value that no one would buy it, over a complete, if very basic, build.
If you slim it down to an app for modification of the settings, and the motor/battery is fitted and tested before shipping then the rest of the bike is just a bike. There's some overcomplications going on with displays and controls and what not, most of which I think you can dispense of on an MTB.
The total cost for custom low manufacturing volumes carbon FS frame with shock and motor/Battery etc. (one of the main brands) would be well below £2k imported into the UK Ex VAT. At high volumes you could maybe get to half that.
What price it then sells for is a totally different question of course.
I am with fettlin, don't think I had a digital camera when I bought my first Heckler (97)
My first full susser was a 2011 heckler. All I remember was it wasnt all that good.
I like that ebike though. I wouldn't buy one, or any ebike, as it would be pointless for the riding I do. But If I only enjoyed the downhill element of cycling, as many folks do, then it would be a no brainer. I remember when starting out me and the boys would go to gt and inners and getting to the top was a slog. If if could of got there in half the time on am ebike then it would have been brilliant.
Nobeerinthefridge
Member
Geex is sadly missed, indeed.
As said above, Gary is rather prolific over on EMTB Forums....
Though from a personal perspective, apart from ripping the pish outta me, aka nobeer stylee 😂, he has been very helpful 😜
The total cost for custom low manufacturing volumes carbon FS frame with shock and motor/Battery etc. (one of the main brands) would be well below £2k imported into the UK Ex VAT.
Is that price to the manufacturer? So say £1-2k + 20% VAT, plus distributor/retailer margin etc?
Yes that's correct.
So say 1500 cost.
I'll assume including dev and marketing costs.
+30% margin for mfr.
+30% distributor
+50% retail at sale, 80% to rrp.
+20%VAT
That's a 5.5k frame at rrp, selling at 4.5k in the sale
(not sure on cycle industry but my distributors want 40-50% retail 80-100% to hit list price. My selling price is between list less 50 and 75%)
So £7k will get you the base spec Heckler or a Fox equipped X01 build Atherton Enduro.
I'm now trying to work out which one is the better VFM....
Out of curiousity anyone know what the cost of the Shimano drive unit is - retail and OEM?
Also where do SC get their carbon frames made?
7k would also buy you a close to top of range Orbea Wild FS, with a full carbon frame. Bosch 2020 motor, 625 battery, full 2020 XT and a Fox 36, with decent 29er wheels and top finishing kit....
So say 1500 cost.
I’ll assume including dev and marketing costs.
+30% margin for mfr.
+30% distributor
+50% retail at sale, 80% to rrp.
+20%VATThat’s a 5.5k frame at rrp, selling at 4.5k in the sale
Thats for your mid size distributor led option though, like a Yeti or a Mondy. The bigger guys will be direct to the shops and paying more like the 1k cost. Therefore having the option of chopping a couple of grand off the 'possible' price. For most shops use more like +50-60% to RRP, infact if you add 50% per hop you're probably not too far off the truth.
Out of curiousity anyone know what the cost of the Shimano drive unit is – retail and OEM?
Also where do SC get their carbon frames made?
I do yes, OE anyway, but sorry I can't say. On the frames, I'd not get hung up on where they're made. Most frames at a reasonable quantity will cost broadly the same and country of origin is not a specific indication of quality. That is to say you won't find Chinese frames to be vastly cheaper than say Taiwanese ones, if the factory is as good. Some are geared on small runs, some big runs, some you pay more up front, some you pay more per unit. What is definitely true though is that carbon when done on a large scale isn't especially 'expensive'. Its all relative of course but say a run of 2000 high end chinese carbon frames will have a unit cost not wildly different to that of a 100 batch of quality Taiwanese Alu, even when you include mould costs.
What it costs = what they think the market will stand while providing the profit margin they want. It's got nothing to do with what it costs. Because, capitalism.
quote: "What it costs = what they think the market will stand while providing the profit margin they want. It’s got nothing to do with what it costs."
But did anyone actually think it did ? if you did then get a pin and burst your bubble. Price of "High End" stuff (whatever it is) never ever has had anything to do with what it cost...
Price of “High End” stuff (whatever it is) never ever has had anything to do with what it cost…
You clearly don't know how much those logos cost to use.
In defence of SC prices (I feel dirty already...) the price of an item isn't just the item, its also the service, after sales, warranty etc.
But yeah, a badge can add a lot to the price of something that is very similar.
See Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda...
You clearly don’t know how much those logos cost to use.
I will send you a pin in the post.....
It'll be interesting to see how the second hand ebike market shakes out, what with batteries dying over there life span etc
