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13 minutes slower.
She is as “good”. She’s not as fast. There are other measures of good. Adjusting for gender, she may well be the best. That’s the point of a covariate. Gender is one such covariate And an important one in many disciplines. But If you take her magnitude or supremacy over others in her class, she could be the best.
For the record, I wouldn’t be seen dead on a course she rides. Actually dead is probably the right adjective. I probably would be if I rode one!
“She is as “good”. She’s not as fast.”
I think this is a great point - her save last year off the big rock drop at Mont Sainte Anne was miraculous!
But when winning or losing is all about a time, then you can’t ignore the genetic advantage conferred by being male, or to a lesser degree intersex, or a historical male who has transitioned to female. I’m an awful non-competing powerlifter (I enjoy the challenge and it’s stopping me from feeling feeble as I get older) and the difference between men and women is vast, even in the non-tested (ie using PEDs) federations.
I don’t know of how the powerlifting feds (of which there are literally hundreds) deal with transgender issues, I’ve yet to hear of anyone competing post-transition. I have come across one very interesting character who seems a great force for all things good in this complex world, called Janae Marie Kroc, who’s a gender-fluid lifter and was a world record holder when she was competing as a man.
WTF has happened to common sense and the reality of genetics and chromosomes. The fact is that genuine dedicated female athletes are getting screwed over by everybody involved in the sport they love, it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed, average male athletes who can't get in the top 50 can trans into a record breaker, if half the field becomes trans what would be the point of a genuine female taking part. So yet again another trans is dominating, what a surprise. A female athlete would have to take every PED to stand a chance, the way its going every gold medal will have an adams apple above it.
Open and XX? Or else Open, XX and a variety of other categories in the style of the paralympics?
This. Job jobbed.
46XX women may have outwardly male characteristics, like Dutch Olympian Foekje Dillema (who may have been a generic mosaic of both 46XX and 46XY cells)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema
A female athlete would have to take every PED to stand a chance
Thing is, it’s not just drugs/number matching. There’s the brain wiring too. By nature men are greater risk-takers so for example, in a road race a man’s brain may decide to lunge for an opening in the sprint that a woman may deem to risky
It would be an interesting study through Cathrovision to look at a risky DH section and assess the lines favoured by men vs women
Womens marathon world record time is 2:14:04.
This is a link to show that the 2:14:04 is not the 15th fastest of all time. Page 10 shows the 1000th fastest time, go to page 20 and obviously 2000 fastest time. All inside 2:14. Which isn't to demean the ladies world record, but just wanted to show that in terms of male/female sporting comparisons, its not the 15th fastest of all time.
https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/road-running/marathon/outdoor/men/senior?page=10
it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed
This is an excellent point.
I'm sure a lot of men and women are reading about this and thinking (adopts Seinfeld voice): "Really?"
It would be an interesting study through Cathrovision to look at a risky DH section and assess the lines favoured by men vs women
Big physical component to this as well as the mental one which you rightly point out though.
Also, talent pool is much bigger in men's field and risk arguably brings greater reward.
This book is well worth a read for those interested in the genetics, biology, and nature v nurture debates.
In my opinion, regardless of current testosterone levels, a transgender athlete can never compete fairly as a female as there's just too much gained from when they were male.
Why does McKinnon defend her position so aggressively? Possibly she has been enabled by others in the field to convince her she is a woman, she also behaves aggressively in a very masculine way..
46XX women may have outwardly male characteristics, like Dutch Olympian Foekje Dillema (who may have been a generic mosaic of both 46XX and 46XY cells)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema
/blockquote>From your link:
After her death a forensic test on body cells obtained from her clothing showed signs of a Y-chromosome in her DNA. She might have been a genetic mosaic, having cells with either 46,XX (female) or 46,XY (male) chromosomes,
But who cares, if she's XX she competes in the XX category. No ambiguity there, that's be beauty of taking gender out of it and letting chromosomal makeup be the sole arbiter.
it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed
Absolutely this.
Only 22 runners in the men's race finished faster than Kosgei, whose time would have been a men's world record in 1964.
Taken from here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50035304
So apologies, 15th is misremembered from when I initially read it but certainly not in the order of x100.
Based on the above posts I completely misread it, as 22 in the men's race vs 22 in the same day's
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50035304So apologies, 15th is misremembered from when I initially read it but certainly not in the order of x100.
She was using the Nike Vaporfly which are believed to improve running economy by 4%, so the comment about it beating the men's 1964 record isn't an accurate comparison.
Why does McKinnon defend her position so aggressively?
Because she's a bully masquerading as a victim.
She’s playing both poacher and gamekeeper simultaneously and because she’s playing the trans card from both sides, she’s untouchable. She has set this up in such a way as she cannot be criticized.
It's quite clever and manipulative.
It’s simple, take gender out of it because that’s fluid.Replace gender classification with two categories, one for people with XX chromosomes, one for everyone else.
or some other catagorisation, forget gender.
Would allow women to compete meaningfully with men of the same same catagorisaton.
Might then make for better, and more watcheable, competition as matches would be closer and therefore more exciting to watch, and therefore closer the 'pay gap'
Would dramatically reduce Serena Williams earning capacity though as she would be in one of the lower categories !
Because she’s a bully masquerading as a victim.
She also writes her own rules a she has done her 'PHD' in this area, essentially on herself. Mind you its sociology so it hardly counts.
I think it would be interesting to hear what the LGBTQ+ community (particularly F-->M trans people) think of all of this. I haven't heard such commentary on this.
She is also an arsehole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_McKinnon
In August 2019, in relation to the death of American billionaire David Koch, McKinnon tweeted that "it’s okay to be happy, even celebrate, when bad people die".[22] A respondent, believed to be alluding to the terminal illness of Magdalen Berns (a feminist commentator on YouTube who has been characterised as transphobic),[23] asked if McKinnon "thought it was OK to celebrate the death of a young person suffering from an incurable brain tumor" (quoting the account of the Charleston The Post and Courier). McKinnon replied: "if they’re a trash human actively trying to harm marginalized people because of who they are? I think it’s justified". The exchange provoked a petition seeking McKinnon's public apology.[8][24][25]
Basically if your beliefs don't align with hers then she is happy if you die. This is not an equality moral stance I recognize, and will lead to further deaths. Killing is wrong, end of. I think she is wrong, and fits the 1980's playground definition of 'mental'.
In fact what she is doing is 'othering' those who don't agree with her. Which is exactly how Trans people are marginalized.
She is also an arsehole
See also celebrating the recent death of Magdalen Berns.
Yea that's in the thing I linked too. Nasty person.
I’m only halfway through this article but it seems well worth reading:
https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/
Does she have to take any hormone drugs to be enable to compete?
Ban these & solve some arguments.
Even has the audacity to call Dawn Orwick a sore loser, adding insult to injury just shows what a piece of shit she? is, Dawn earned her stripes, she didn't steal them, can anyone blame her for not embracing a cheating scumbag who feels proud of shooting fish in a barrel achievements.
TBH, I'm not sure that the 35-39 Masters category podium would normally get this kind of attention, and perhaps it's best if it reverts to this state and she disappears back into obscurity and mediocrity.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for the whole Trans thing - I mean i get it, life is potentially quite shitty for people who genuinely feel they were born the wrong gender and want to identify as a different one.
But is this fair for anyone? This person is biologically 100% male, she absolutely has the right to change her name to Rachel and identify as female, but competing in an athletic contest with other competitors who were born 100% female strikes me as just plainly wrong.
She is also an arsehole
That's putting it mildly!
In the last week McKinnon has:
Accused the woman she beat of 'unsportsmanlike' behaviour and reported her to the authorities.
Accused another female cyclist (interviewed by the BBC) of transphobia and reported her.
Celebrated the death of journalist of Deborah Orr.
I'm saying no more on this thread, other than to provide a link to this article on T-Nation.
It's a comprehensive take on the situation, covering many sports, and includes a break down of the various rules and regulations.
Trans Athletes: The Death Of Women's Sports Fairness Gone Too Far
Check this piece of quality trolling.
https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1186681785813475328
😀 FFS!
You really need to read more of "Titania"s tweets 🙂
I have been for the last five minutes. I get it now 😀
Hook. Line. Sinker.
oh, its a joik!
We've made Mumsnet!
... there's a particularly good post from "BuzzShitbagBobbly"* at Wed 23-Oct-19 18:45:23
*They have much better user names than us - we need to up our game
thegreatape
Member
I have been for the last five minutes. I get it now 😀
#metoo
Also this guy https://twitter.com/JarvisDupont
This is ****ing inspired.
https://twitter.com/JarvisDupont/status/1031874597690466306
> I think Semenya has been treated unfairly, because whatever her specific physiology (and despite rumours and partial leaks, the exact details of her condition have not been made public) I believe she is legally a woman, so she should be able to compete in that category, as currently defined. It seems perverse to force her to medicate to limit her natural abilities.
You are wrong.
Semenya's physiology is public and there is no doubt.
Things we know without any doubt:
* Semenya has XY chromosomes (source: CAS 2018/O/5794)
* Semenya has testes (ibid)
* We know that at the 2013 women's World Championship there were NO athletes with abnormal levels of T, as a result of IAAF regulations requiring T suppression at that time. (source: Serum androgen levels etc - Bermon & Garnier). Caster Semenya (proven in court to have testes) and Francine Niyonsaba (believed to have testes) were absent from this
* We know that at the 2011 World Championship the absolute value of the highest free testosterone value was precisely 469.3 pmol/l, and that mean free *male* testosterone for age 25-39 is 295 pmol/l, with a standard distribution of 108 pmol/l, (Tremso Study: Svartberg et al) and hence assuming a normal distribution, and that this places this 'female' athlete at the 95th *male* percentile, i.e. 'very high male testosterone levels'
* We do not for sure who this testosterone reading belongs to, but the list of 800m runners in 2011 is online, and includes Caster Semenya, but NONE of the other suspected XY 800m athletes (i.e. Niyonsaba, Wambui, etc.). It is therefore highly likely that this reading belonged to Caster Semenya, and that Caster Semenya possesses high male levels of testosterone, for unsurprising reasons, i.e. testes
* We do know of course that women (the kind with ovaries) can produce high levels of testosterone, this occurs in PCOS (which is defined at a level exceeding roughly 1/15 of the suspected Semenya reading), and ovarian tumours. Neither condition is consistent with competing successfully in athletics (testosterone is produced in adipose tissue, typically in PCOS).
* We know that Semenya is missing the SRD5A2 enzyme (Source: CAS etc., ibid.) as a result of a somewhat well-studied genetic mutation. SRD5A2 is one of three enzymes (SRD5A1/2/3) responsible for the conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). (The SRD5A3 enzyme is found in all tissues in the human body, while SRD5A1 and SRD5A2 are specific to different body parts)
* The lack of the SRD5A2 enzyme from the foetal prostate as a result of this specific genetic mutation causes in the birth defect where XY males are born with external genitals that appear female. This is because DHT is an androgen, androgenising the genitalia, and also causing things like body hair. In less developed medical systems, this can cause the infant to be assigned female at birth.
* Although DHT is an androgen there is consensus whether a person such as Semenya, who seem to have high male T levels, but low DHT, is disadvantage vis-a-vis *male* athletes. (CAS etc., ibid.)
* However given that Semenya possesses high male testosterone, produced in the testes, it is certain that Semenya possesses an enormous biological advantage w.r.t. *female* athletes, whose average T levels are 1/50 of Semenya's.
* We know that while infants with Semenya's condition (5-ARD2) are undervirilised at infancy, the working SRD5A1 enzyme virilises them at puberty.
* We know that adults with 5-ARD2 who are assigned male at birth always maintain that gender identity in adulthood, while many adults with 5-ARD2 who were assigned female at birth are likely to change to male after puberty (e.g., Guevedoces in the Dominical Republic
* We know that while Caster Semenya has the legal status of 'female', Caster Semenya married a woman wearing traditional male clothing, and during adolescence, Semenya's gender identity has been ambiguous tending towards male
So to the extent that Caster Semenya's natural abilities are natural, they are natural because of testes....
(Note that in the 1930s, Mary Weston was competing and winning as female with this condition. He discovered that he was intersex, and later married a woman and had children. It is likely given Caster Semenya's relatively mild intersex condition (i.e. Caster Semenya is only a somewhat undervirilised biological male, not for example a completely unvirilised biological male), that
this would also be possible.)
I understand that the UCI use the same regulations as the IOC (which I think are being revised) broadly those regs are (for men transitioning to women)
1. Identify as a woman, that identification cannot be changed for sporting purposes for 4 years.
2. Athlete must demonstrate that her testosterone levels is below the regulated level for at least a year prior to first competition, and that will be subject to individual investigation should they deem it necessary on a case by case basis and be sport dependent.
3. Total testosterone must stay below the regulated level for the entirety of her time in competition
4. Athletes may be tested at any time, and suspended if non compliant.
If McKinnon meets that, then she's free to compete. Oh, and comparing Rachel Atherton (or any female athlete) to male athletes misses the point somewhat.
Oh, and comparing Rachel Atherton (or any female athlete) to male athletes misses the point somewhat.
In what way?
a few 'woke bros', but generally good natured.
Seems legit.
In what way?
It offers no illumination or insight into either event. You may as well compare an Olympic men's figure skater to a England Rugby forward*
*edit, I don't anything about Rugby, those are the house sized ones, right?