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Speaking before the event, McKinnon told Sky News: “By preventing trans women from competing or requiring them to take medication, you’re denying their human rights.”
Trans athletes should (of course!) be able to compete in the sports they wish to compete in. However, I don’t believe anyone has a human right to compete in the category of their own choosing, and to have male to female trans athletes to compete in women’s events is unfair. Perhaps a solution would be to make the men’s class the default open class?
Perhaps a solution would be to make the men’s class the default open class?
In effect, it already is, she could definitely compete in the men's category if she chose.
This will rumble on and on until someone puts a formal definition of what female is from the perspective of sporting competition.
Perhaps a solution would be to make the men’s class the default open class?
[Devil's Advocate Mode] Then she'd stand no chance of winning & she's not a man [/Devil's Advocate Mode]
This is a discussion that needs to be had - sooner rather than later, if I was a woman at this event & she turned up I'm sure I'd not race & protest her participation.
The biggest problem is when anyone tries to discuss or talk about women's rights they are shouted down as transphobic, which doesn't help anyone.
I didn't realise until yesterday, NZ downhiller Kate Weatherly is a trans athlete.
I've read the article, but just looking at the pic you have to think "is that looking likely to be a fair fight" ? The answer is.... No, not really.
I'm quite blinkered on the whole transitioning thing and was if i'm honest a little traumatised by watching the 'female' on Celebrity Masterchef recently.... So forgive me for being a bit ignorant/narrow minded.
But in competition like this, i'm struggling.
Legally still a man in the UK (no GRC). Is that correct?
There needs to be three categories.
[Devil’s Advocate Mode] Then she’d stand no chance of winning & she’s not a man [/Devil’s Advocate Mode]
If I recall correctly then before transitioning they did compete as male, and were mediocre at best.
Certainly doesn't seem like a level playing field does it?
So forgive me for being a bit ignorant/narrow minded.
why?
It's not like there's no readily available sources of information about the issues affecting trans people and being narrow minded is just saying you are intolerant of people not like you.
Ross Tucker is worth reading on this.
https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1186461132095012864?s=19
[Devil’s Advocate Mode] Then she’d stand no chance of winning [...] [/Devil’s Advocate Mode]
Just like the vast majority of all other humans then.
That’s not a reason to automatically allow her to compete in the Female category.
And yes, this deserves addressing. Ignoring it because it’s hard to address is harming the trans population, and exposing the female population to new potential threats.
It’s hard because there’s a subset of folk who will use any well intentioned rulings for their own ends. Men accessing toilets and changing rooms by declaring “I’m a woman” and removing those as safe spaces? It’s already happening.
The rights of the trans folk are important. The rights of the (much larger) female folk need protection too. Because often, men are arses.
Ignoring it because it’s hard does everyone a disservice, and puts folk at risk.
Edit: for avoidance of doubt... I have no issues with Rachel winning. It’s ok in terms of what the rules of the sport say right now, so as valid as any other win. But I do think the rules need review.
why?
It’s not like there’s no readily available sources of information about the issues affecting trans people and being narrow minded is just saying you are intolerant of people not like you.
Dont forgive me then 🙂
There needs to be three categories.
That wouldn't work either, as women who identify as men would suffer the same disadvantages against men who identify as women. IMHO there needs to be clear definition in sport, if you are biologically (as in you're chromosome makeup is XY) a man you compete against men, if you are biologically a woman (as in you're chromosome makeup is XX) you compete against women.
If you identify as the opposite sex (keeping it simple here as there appears to be about 100 different identities nowadays) then you compete in the category of which you were born, irrespective of how you wish to identify. Otherwise women's sport will become and absolute farce with trans people who wouldn't cut it in men's sport ultimately dominating.
Just look at how hard IAAF worked to stop Caster Semenya from competing, despite her being a biological female with high testosterone levels. I don't see it happening in athletics because of that, but it's clearly something the UCI are too delicate to combat - although sock length is vitally important.
As far as I know, and feel free to correct me, even those who are trans still have the same chromosome makeup they were born with.
Can we see a world though where someone actively changes gender purely to win ? Lying about their actual desire to be a female just to get the operation and then clearing up trophies in events ?
This is an issue for women to decide. It is patronising in the least for men to be discussing let alone making decisions on who should be eligible to compete in the womens category.
The biggest problem is when anyone tries to discuss or talk about women’s rights they are shouted down as transphobic, which doesn’t help anyone
Totally agree and McKinnon seems especially good at doing this.
If I was a woman competing against her I'd be annoyed, no way is it fair on them. Unfortunately I think we're stuck with it now due to what defines a man or a woman being such a huge grey area these days!
So, if Bradley Wiggins decided to transition, then he/she would be able to compete as a woman.
The world has gone mad - it has nothing to do with human rights just having a level paying field.
There are people at foot using is to drive personal agendas. In comparison, what ever Lance did with performance enhancement becomes trivial.
“Just look at how hard IAAF worked to stop Caster Semenya from competing, despite her being a biological female with high testosterone levels”
Semenya is not biologically female, she’s intersex.
It’s a big issue in sport. Yes, all top athletes have inherent genetic advantages but there are a lot of sports where male or intersex characteristics give you a clear advantage over a similarly gifted female athlete.
And just as some PEDs cause permanent changes, so developing male causes changes that cannot be undone by manipulating hormone level, giving an unfair advantage.
Lying about their actual desire to be a female just to get the operation and then clearing up trophies in events ?
No operation necessary.
Intersex is a different scenario. We really shouldn't conflate the two.
Can we see a world though where someone actively changes gender purely to win ? Lying about their actual desire to be a female just to get the operation and then clearing up trophies in events ?
To be honest, in the world we live in today I can see it happening.
Semenya is not biologically female, she’s intersex.
Sorry about that, my mistake, so I'll hold my hands up.
So we need four categories then.
So, if Bradley Wiggins decided to transition, then he/she would be able to compete as a woman.
Provided they complied with the rules, yes. You know that you don't just have to say "I'm a woman now" and then wander into the womens' start line, right?
if you are biologically a woman (as in you’re chromosome makeup is XX) you compete against women
So the women's category get won by trans male athletes?
Men accessing toilets and changing rooms by declaring “I’m a woman” and removing those as safe spaces? It’s already happening.
Where?
This is an issue for women to decide. It is patronising in the least for men to be discussing let alone making decisions on who should be eligible to compete in the womens category.
Women have a history of being told how to do things by men & a lot of them see male to female trans athletes as an extension of this. Women have had to fight hard to get the rights they have got in the western world these days & some see this as another battle for their rights.
Provided they complied with the rules, yes
What's the rules ?
Just look at how hard IAAF worked to stop Caster Semenya from competing, despite her being a biological female with high testosterone levels.
2 points of reference here.
1. Semenya has an XY chromosome.
2. Whilst they inevitably get drawn into the same discussion, intersex and trans are different issues and so should be kept separate.
All three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex (have XY chromosomes). https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/
@ miketually.
Have a google for jonathan/jessica yaniv.
Interesting reading.
You know that you don’t just have to say “I’m a woman now” and then wander into the womens’ start line, right?
Actually, I believe some states in the US are actually allowing that. I'm sure there's some high school sports (which is a big thing in the US) being dominated by men who are simply saying they identify as women, as the state law allows that.
I 100% support peoples right to choose, but it cannot be a subject where all debate is shouted down as TERFs or whatever.
As far as sports go, governing bodies are setting rules that mean a lot more than just self id. However, reducing testosterone levels for just 12 months prior to competition does not counter many years of physical development during adolescence etc.
Actually, I believe some states in the US are actually allowing that. I’m sure there’s some high school sports (which is a big thing in the US) being dominated by men who are simply saying they identify as women, as the state law allows that.
Do you have any references to support that? I've heard similar but never from a reliable source (no insult intended).
Be much more sensible to just get rid of the categories full stop and force teams nations sponsors who ever to include female athletes at a good ratio (say 1:1) until such point as you'd achieve a reasonable ratio on merit alone.
Gender seems to me to have a lot less to do with performance than funding, support, training attitudes etc all of which are heavily skewed in favour of male athletes and will continue to be until you remove the distinction.
The gender gap in performance is shinking, do we think that's down to the physical difference between sexes getting less or the fact they're slowly being treated more similarly?
It's a complicated subject - there definitely needs to be more discussion at the top level, the topic of additional categories for trans athletes might be a touchy one though, as it's effectively segregating them from their "sex" class in sporting events, intersex athletes too, but I don't see where the "fair" split could be...
Even with testosterone limits to bring trans athletes back on par with non-trans competitors isn't really evening things out, a quote from Rachel McKinnon highlighted that her body hadn't produced testosterone for over 10 years... problem there is it's hard to negate any performance advantage of increased levels of testosterone during the 20-odd years of her physiological development prior to that.
Whichever way they divvy up the classes someone's going to be disadvantaged
So, if Bradley Wiggins decided to transition, then he/she would be able to compete as a woman.
Pippa York can of course compete as a woman. The fact that she has given up competitive cycling should be a relief to any veteran female cyclist. She’d probably still beat me.
If you didn’t know, Before Bradley and their ilk, she was Britain’s most successful male cyclist.
Minefield, socially and more importantly, scientifically. The article about Kate Weatherley is surprisingly well-balanced
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/
I have little time for McKinnon, however.
So how would this work in a sport like boxing?
Born male, identified as female and competes as a female. Would that also be fair?
I've absolutely no idea what the answer is but I don't have any time for McKinnon purely down to her attitude!
It's simple, take gender out of it because that's fluid.
Replace gender classification with two categories, one for people with XX chromosomes, one for everyone else.
'XX' and 'other'. Problem goes away.
So how would this work in a sport like boxing
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox
Male puberty fundamentally changes the body.
I’ve absolutely no idea what the answer is but I don’t have any time for McKinnon purely down to her attitude!
Agreed, when she started accusing her competitors of being 'irrational' I lost any sympathy.
I think there's a bigger question here - what 'right' do people have to be able to compete in professional sport? Why does a category even need to exist? How far down the road do we go? Do I deserve a special 'Injury prone, 36 year old, father of 1, Scots-Italian heritage, etc. etc*' category so that I can make a living out of cycling too?
*insert however many other criteria would be required to guarantee me win, quite a lot I suspect...
Why cant you just have male and female. If your trans, intersex or whatever then you cant compete.
Its not stopping someone competing in a sport at a non professional level.
Why cant you just have male and female.
Define "female".
That's the initial problem right there.
If your trans, intersex or whatever then you cant compete.
If you're trans, intersex whatever you can compete - it just has to be against men - and yes you'll be at a disadvantage instead of an advantage which is a shame, but such is life.
Mckinnon doesn't help clarify the issue much - she's a gift to those of a transphobic disposition, like a right wing parody of an entitled trans athlete.
Ultimately the binary biological sex classification is the utilitarian solution for sports - although whether governing bodies can be expected to lay down the law like that I doubt, you generally can't look to outfits like the IOC or UCI for that sort of leadership (tbf it's asking a lot as it is a societal issue)
Define “female”.
That’s the initial problem right there.
xx chromosome
This is medical science ****ing people up. Just because you can use surgery and hormones to changes someone's appearance and demeanor doesn't mean you should.
It stems from psychology originally, which has a massive replication crisis, so who can tell if their theories are true or not. It is irresponsible.
Now changing your appearance and demeanor because you want to, is a different matter, we should all have the choice, but validating those changes as conforming to the other is just delusional.
Its not stopping someone competing in a sport at a non professional level.
It absolutely would.