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Okay so, if there's another line around them then what's the problem?
The wobblers have to take the long way round?
(I jest).
Sometimes they appear in the main line, there is an side to say if modifying a trail to put some gaps in it, maybe they should be the 'alternative route' rather than the main line.
It doesn't bother me really, as i'll hit most stuff up there, but I can see the viewpoint of others.
Completely agree with you stevet1. There were some muppets putting a petition together to have the Swinley trail team remove the new Freeride line because they couldn't ride it. It's a shame they've completely tamed Captain Clunk. There was an 8 inch drop and even that's been removed. There were loads of chicken lines on that trail too.
We rode Yog POts, BKB, Evian, Double Double, Captain Clunk, Root of all evil, Curly Wurly, Big Cheese, Graveyard Rollercoaster, John the Baptist, Secret Santa, Carpet Land... etc etc yesterday.
It was fine, was OK, was obviously great fun.... but ... well, it was nothing amazing. The trails don't flow at times, there's too much of a gap between effort and reward from the climbing. The climbs were not hard yesterday, but the reward didn't really give enough back at times.
Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad day out... but i'll be driving half the time/distance to Swinley next time instead.
I am surprised by that weeksy - perhaps its familiarity, but each to their own!
I guess there is more climbing involved. To me the big difference between Swinley and SH is that the former tends to be non-stop as there is not route finding/decisions to be made. So I feel as though I have had more of a work out. But equally there are several long linky sections of the red that are simple meh IMO. The linky stuff in the SH is steeper and longer but more interesting.
As a wobbler, I can happily confirm that it was perfectly possible to wobble around the trickly lower sections of C Clunk - i have a high level of proficiency there!!
Always good to have challenges to build up to though, so I would hate to see sanitisation go too far.
Sometimes they appear in the main line, there is an side to say if modifying a trail to put some gaps in it, maybe they should be the 'alternative route' rather than the main line.
Yes, I would agree with that. It also makes them more interesting if they are not on the main often straight line. It's beneficial for everyone to have consideration for other users when adding a new feature, means it's less likely to be destroyed for one thing and would be subject to less erosion from people who don't know what to expect slamming on their brakes.
THM, without doubt it plays a factor, as it was only my 2nd time and many of the trails were ones we'd not done before, i'm obviously riding them blind, which can affect your speed/enjoyment, especially when your ride leader buggers off and leaves you 😉 (he did wait at and dangerous bits though of course).... Whereas at Swinley i know the trails very very well so can let go a bit and know where grip/lines are.
We rode Yog POts, BKB, Evian, Double Double, Captain Clunk, Root of all evil, Curly Wurly, Big Cheese, Graveyard Rollercoaster, John the Baptist, Secret Santa, Carpet Land... etc etc yesterday.
Obviously it's driven by ability, but all of that I would ride as 'filler' trails to other more interesting stuff.
There is a lot more climbing around the SH compared to Swinley & it's one hill, I rode Saturday & ended up doing 42km with 2350m of climbing. I think the entire loop of Swinley which is what ~22km? has about 220/230m of climbing.
TBH I was a little underwhelmed with SH. It was my 2nd time there and while it's ok, it's fun enough.... I'd rather go to Swinley.
If you could tell the eleventy billion people that seem to now turn up every weekend it would be much appreciated! That aside, depending on how you like to ride, Weeksy you need a new guide!
Generally speaking I like the jumps but also agree that there have been way too many appearing in the middle of already established trails, often poorly built. Clunk was fine albeit poorly placed. It was a jump line, clearly so and it was very obvious where the jumps/drops were, no nasty hidden drops or holes. If you don't want to do the jumps then don't do them, there's plenty of other trails. That said I completely understand why the landowner has taken the approach they have. Northern Monkey and Summer Madness are great examples of how a surrey hills trail should be in my opinion.
Out of interest, Gotama, are you able to do the mega jump to the LHS of summer madness - about 50m before the standard bombhole bit on SM? I like to gauge the standard of posters to understand the context.
With NMky and SM, do you mean that the more aggresive lines are kept reasonably separate from the standard lines that wobblers like me ride?
Odd with Clunk because as discussed before its a trail with three distinct sections. I was enjoying the top two bits and riding with confidence when I arrived at the gaps first time round and got a shock!! Too much for me and only just realised in time to be able to avoid the gaps.
ivorhogseye - Member
There were some muppets putting a petition together to have the Swinley trail team remove the new Freeride line because they couldn't ride it.
I think that was a joke to wind up SFMB "when's the freeride open?" types 😉
Hob Nob - Member
Sometimes they appear in the main line, there is an side to say if modifying a trail to put some gaps in it, maybe they should be the 'alternative route' rather than the main line.
This really, *if* it's a well established trail (not the same thing as sanctioned/official, they're almost all illegal round there anyway). A dedicated jump line or trail (milestones for example, or the NM jump line), ideal for jumps.
Often have some debate about this but the attitude is generally that it's not my/our trail and if trail builder wants to make all the features for them and their friends, then that's the way it is. Though I'm not always sure who's building what. I know who did SS originally and some extra bits on it, but not sure about these new gaps. To be fair, SS wasn't intended to be a gentle blue trail.
Some digging seems well thought out and even accommodating a reasonable "chicken run". Others a bit daft in design and location.
But hey, not my land, not my trails, and I'm not a skilled enough rider for this kind of stuff to be for me, so I'm just an observer. From my observation, the Peaslake end of SH is getting ever more technical in the freeride sense and I'm running out of fun and flowy without needing airtime skills. That's just the way it is. Move on somewhere else.
(is also a realisation that with age and lack of skills, getting air is not my thing 😀 )
teamhurtmore - Member
Out of interest, Gotama, are you able to do the mega jump to the LHS of summer madness - about 50m before the standard bombhole bit on SM? I like to gauge the standard of posters to understand the context.
Got a pic? I like to gauge the standard of posters who refer to a jump as a mega jump ... 🙂
Am wondering what it would take to revive Carpet Land. It was mainly just tree debris from logging that wiped it out. I'm no trail builder, but to get it back to what it was I'd guess it just needs clearance. Ideally without digging anything as it wasn't a dug trail before, just beautiful lines you could take over pine needles through the trees.
I miss Carpetland too. Was never anything technical but a lovely run. It was briefly resurrected and I spent a bit of time pulling debris of the new line but with so many trees gone it had lost any atmosphere. The first section of Secret Santa also suffers from being so open - basically it's a line along a pair of logging truck ruts - which is probably why someone thought a couple of gap jumps would liven it up a bit. Too visible IMO but with the upside that no-one's going to go over them by accident.
weeksy - Member
It was fine, was OK, was obviously great fun.... but ... well, it was nothing amazing. The trails don't flow at times, there's too much of a gap between effort and reward from the climbing. The climbs were not hard yesterday, but the reward didn't really give enough back at times.
Pitch/Winterfold area is I guess "Enduro" style. Climb, session trail, climb or onto next trail, session trail. It's a struggle to get a flow out of a ride (more so with social group rides where each trail involves stopping to discuss it 😉 ). I try to make a regular loop though that takes in everything good and isn't too much up and down, building up for rewarding down.
Leith has some longer flow trails, aside from Summer Lightning (a bit Swinley ginge style in parts, though Tower to Westcott makes for one of the longest and fun runs in Surrey Hills). Problem with Leith's unofficial trails is linking them up in a descent way as it's a maze round there. They're less about gap jumps though, although more digging has been occurring there in the last year.
There's more beyond all this though and the digging is more subtle 😉
Out of interest, Gotama, are you able to do the mega jump to the LHS of summer madness - about 50m before the standard bombhole bit on SM? I like to gauge the standard of posters to understand the context.
Assuming you mean the big dirt jump, no. I'm probably marginally better than average at riding trails but a lot slower than the likes of HobNob and certainly no pro. Speed wise Stravaaaa tells me I'm tied 39th down Northern Monkey albeit I suspect a lot of good riders divert into the bigger jumps which blobs their time. That's also a flattering figure for me; 184th (just inside top 8%) down Eric and 56 seconds for Graveyard Rollercoaster for some other numbers. Target for me is those big Northern Monkey jumps and string together Flytipper by next summer, albeit maybe not the last one. I'm certainly no big air merchant but also appreciate there are those that like it.
I have no problem with people wobbling round jumps, I do it myself. With captain clunk you could always peel off left before doing the doubles and run into what I think is Juicy Fruits. There was always plenty of sight and time to stop before going into the first clunk double and the run in gave a clear indication towards the style of trail.
What I was trying to say is that I think it is reasonable for whoever is building the trail to build it how they want to, providing it is very clear where the jumps are. If the jump in the trail presents a problem then there is nothing stopping someone making an alternative line that runs well is there? You, for example? Sure, in an ideal world it would all be rideable for all ( i wish those big NM jumps were tables) but I think its a bit much to expect the guys building the trails to do that.
That said I think clunk was poorly placed given how busy pitch is, the same applies to the milestone jumps, but at the same time it was very clear on both where the jumps were. What I think is daft and dangerous is when someone takes an established trail which carries a lot of traffic and then sticks a double into it with poor sight lines. Worse still is when its not even a double but a mound with the earth coming from directly behind the takeoff so anyone rolling it is in trouble. Super Nova a few years back comes to mind before Dave sorted it out.
Swinley is a trail centre. Surrey Hills is not. Much more challenging riding in SH than Swinley. New stuff appearing all the time with old favourites evolving. Personally I much prefer SH as the climbs and descents are more clearly seperated, 100-200m climb stop enjoy view descend. Swinley is more mixed and with much smaller verticals and nothing very steep.
Worse still is when its not even a double but a mound with the earth coming from directly behind the takeoff so anyone rolling it is in trouble
Well, worst of all when someone takes an existing drop that can be safely rolled and turns it into a double by digging out immediately behind it to enlarge it and putting in some kind of landing ramp. The last drop on Secret Santa being a case in point. Katie came to grief on something similar at the weekend.
Would rather ride my road bike than ride swinley. Same thing...
Peaslake is way better. But then its usually down to what you're capable of/interested in doing...
simons_nicolai-uk - Member
The last drop on Secret Santa being a case in point
I was building up to maybe doing it, but then it got dug out behind the drop. Just after that came across a group that hadn't expected it and sure enough someone had stacked it badly.
Awkward that stuff. One argument is you check every feature first with a pre-ride or trail walk, but who does that every single ride in case of a change on stuff they have ridden hundreds of times and are familiar with?
Anyway, Clunk - still droppable. Gaps gone though. Might have been nice to make them less dramatic doubles at least but oh well. Likewise I used to peel off to Juicy Fruits. That had a gap on but I had no issue with that as that's how the trail was made (same with Clunk really). Sadly though, that's been flattened too.
Me too, but that gap after the jump rules it out for me
Gotama, tbc, I wasnt being critical, genuine question as in my mind I have you down as a bit of a MTB god - or is that just hobnob?!?
Ha, most definitely not me! Happy to go for a ride sometime if you fancy although I'm a weekend person generally.
With NMky and SM, do you mean that the more aggresive lines are kept reasonably separate from the standard lines that wobblers like me ride?
Sorry, either missed or misread this bit earlier. What I meant is that I think they're both cracking trails which sum up what riding in the Surrey Hills is about. Northern Monkey in particular can be ridden and enjoyed at any level assuming a bit of experience. It's not too built up and gets more challenging the faster you get.
The hole behind the drop on secret Santa is just moronic and is the kind of alteration that annoys me. Stuff like that is probably more likely to create a lawsuit than the NM jumps. I suspect it's the yoofs Dave's stuff is usually pretty considered even if you can't ride it.
weeksy - MemberWe rode Yog POts, BKB, Evian, Double Double, Captain Clunk, Root of all evil, Curly Wurly, Big Cheese, Graveyard Rollercoaster, John the Baptist, Secret Santa, Carpet Land... etc etc yesterday.
It was fine, was OK, was obviously great fun.... but ... well, it was nothing amazing. The trails don't flow at times, there's too much of a gap between effort and reward from the climbing. The climbs were not hard yesterday, but the reward didn't really give enough back at times.
Mate, I'm sorry to hear that, I was concerned we were doing the less techy stuff but I didn't know what Crust was comfortable with. 🙁 My initial plan was to forget about Holmbury and to head up to Pitch and then move over to Winterfold (where Evian, Northern Monkey and Summer Madness are) but time and daylight were not on our side. 🙂
View it as a challenge not a threat... Really, if you can't do the jump, no big deal, applaud those who can, take the chicken run, and then work on how you can up your game and emulate.
Worrying how so many people want to dumb down trails to the lowest 'anyone can do it' level. Yes there are lines I can't do in the Surrey Hills - just makes me respect those who can - and reinforces my determination to session them until I can. Isn't that what it's all about, challenging yourself and being outside the comfort zone?
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Worrying how so many people want to dumb down trails to the lowest 'anyone can do it' level.
I don't think it's anything like that - what you are seeing though is a lot of riders saying "we're very lucky to be allowed the freedom to ride pretty much wherever we like here, but some people are really beginning to push the boundaries and sooner or later someone is going to get hurt or sued, and the result will be that we lose everything."
Well constructed jumps, doubles and drops on trails not necessarily a problem. However digging them in the main line of well established trails really, really is one. The legal maxim involved is 'Volenti non fit injuria' - if someone knowingly and willingly places themselves at risk, then they have no redress, however where the trail contains what was described in a recent judgement as 'an unexpected hazard, a nasty surprise or an elephant trap' then the whole thing changes. Creating hazards like that in established trails, even more particularly in the main line rather than as an option, is dangerous and risks spoiling it for everyone.
Mate, I'm sorry to hear that,
No reason for you to be sorry mate. It's just personal preference at the end of the day. I'm less skilled than you, less quick than you so riding Swinley is arguably better terrain for my skill levels... It's not a criticism of you 🙂
Ninfan puts it really nicely.
TBH I was a little underwhelmed with Swinley. while it's ok, it's fun enough.... I'd rather ride round Asda carpark
I was building up to maybe doing it, but then it got dug out behind the drop. Just after that came across a group that hadn't expected it and sure enough someone had stacked it badly.
We came across someone who had spanked themselves on this also - just after it was done.
They rode it blind & just assumed it was as before, having helped them & watched others come through & deploy the same sort of tactic you can see why it becomes dangerous.
It was the guys who were coming in too slow to jump it properly & would 'plop' off the end, and inevitably come in heavy on the front with a little nose bump.
If you are going fast enough to jump it properly, it's a non issue, but it removes peoples ability to build up to properly clearing it.
There isn't a huge amount of progression trails for people to build up on any more. Most require a full commitment.
Hopefully it hasn't gone that far HN. As a member of the wobbler brigade there are still plenty of runs for to me enjoy including SS- I just avoid the gap and the drop on the RHS - ditto Northern Monkey, clunky etc
There are also runs that are beyond me so I can avoid them e.g. Flytipper and T&C (I believe) and those on my limit (Eric). As ninfan says it's simply a question of balance and using common sense. The place has got more serious with more jumps etc recently and as the ranger says limits are now being pushed. As always we just need the hope, not too far
Enjoy your riding everyone. We are lucky to enjoy such a great place to ride. Let's appreciate it.
Sounds like a few things have changed since my last visit in November! Interested to see what clunk looks like now. Hopefully the last drop before the last two "big ones" is still there - that was nothing serious, but enjoyable. I just hope the area doesn't get toned down to beginner level - that would just be boring and a real shame. There were always chicken runs - people need to ride with caution, they cant expect everything to be 100% safe. Health and Safety and US suing culture creeping in now 🙁
Fly Tipper used to be a trail mere mortals could do.
Not my video, just illustrates the trail.
Little gap at the end but it was rollable and tame enough to practice on. I was near the point of doing it. Then the whole thing became super gnar! Though it is impressive. Often stop off to watch those with skills.
Though probably that kid can do all the big jumps on it now.
I got my nickname "Danger" from the tipper after trying the first gap jump twice in succession and face planting in spectacular style much to astonishment of the group. Not sure what possessed me to go back and give that gap another go!
Not much chance of doing that now though!
weeksy - MemberNo reason for you to be sorry mate. It's just personal preference at the end of the day. I'm less skilled than you, less quick than you so riding Swinley is arguably better terrain for my skill levels... It's not a criticism of you
Sorry dude, wasn't taking your post as criticism, just I wanted you and Crust to enjoy the day out as you'd made the effort to get there. 🙂