[Closed] Pay to play & Trail tax

alanl, I suppose the difference is that rivers don't really wear out. But most "natural" trails are no such thing, some are built from scratch by man and the rest mostly get maintained by man. At the moment, a lot of that falls on councils- leading to the sort of sanitisation everyone hates- or by randoms, which can be a bit dodgy and definitely puts work on a minority of shoulders

And on that note:

mrhoppy - Member

What would it pay for? There are defined responsibilities for maintenance or RoW and trail centres are by and large commercial operations. Neither of which I feel any real responsibility to fund out of the goodness of my heart to be honest.

Maybe it pays for more sympathetic maintenance of rights of way/bridleways. At the moment, we complain when a path we use gets steamrollered but we don't often put up many alternatives. We don't have that much of a voice and we struggle to provide the manpower to gain influence that way but money is always a good amplifier. Councils will do the cheapest possible repair, and probably rightly so, maybe your trail tithe is enough to get it done better. Matched funding, contractor support, that sort of thing. Or maybe it pays to train local trail build leaders (for legality/health and safety etc), or to insure volunteer groups, or for the little bit of manpower required for local rangers to work with volunteers... Or for a local trail advocate that can liaise and support other organisations and get their work to take us more into account. Tons of options.

I wish the self professed keeper of the peak would bugger off. You do not represent me!

Like lots of worthy idea's in principle it sounds fine. But in practice its a lousy idea 🙁 you'd need a mechanism to collect the money, then a mechanism to disperse the money. Bids would have to be put in,judgements made 😯 honestly can't people just ride their bikes without all that bollocks !!! I do without being a member of any committee or focus group or anything. But heyho as long as its voluntary carry on, just complicate the most simple thing in the world... Riding your bike.

Legspin, you've not said what you want instead.

There are a few people stepping up to the plate. If we don't like what they're doing, step up as well. Yes our wish list is varied but we will never be taken seriously or achieve anything if all people see is constant bickering.

Keeper of the Peak offers a free service updating folks on trail conditions and offers a voice on trail advocacy. It's not even done for any sort of fame or bragging rites as its anonymous.

Someone giving up their free time to make mountain biking better for all.

Seriously, what's not to love?

Taxi25, I thought exactly the same as you back when IMBA-UK first tried to get things off the ground over here.

Seeing first hand what is happening in the Peak District makes me wish that myself and others had supported them back then.

There's no point trying to fix things when it's too late, that's why it's called too late.

At the risk of over exaggerating a bit, all it take for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

Onzadog. I can't comment on the peak district, I don't live there, don't ride there, probably never will. If you and others see problem's and feel you have to do something, carry on. But never assume you or any group speak for every person who rides a Mtb. Locally I can ride pretty much where I want, when I want with just basic common sense exceptions. I don't need people fighting for me to ride places I or more or less no one else wants to ride.
I don't want to pay a levy for some quango to dish out money to people to dig up the countryside, or print out flyers campaigning for rights to access no that no one (with very few exceptions ) give a stuff about.
Just remember never presume that what concerns you is a problem for others, and that your voice is for anyone other than youself.

What taxi said.

I can kind of understand that, albeit with less teenage angst, as I too disagree with my local group all the time but that doesn't mean I don't support the idea of someone somewhere wanting to improve their situation

Taxi25, I envy your position but it does feel that you're saying because it's not your voice, there should be no voice.

I can see an argument for keeping issues local but I can also see small local groups being considered a minor inconvenience to the powers that be.

Finger crossed that this gets off the ground and helps in places like the Peak. With a bit of luck, it becomes nationally recognised and you'll never feel the ripples of what's happening here, anywhere near you.

Basically the article is asking for people to set up local charges with donation boxes in Nike shops. Good idea.

I'd pay,just so I could rub it in the filthy ramblers faces, right before I kick em in the gunt and fart in their general director for thinking they own the peak District!

So much anger from some of you lot. I think the term I used to use when I was a kid was "take a chill pill".

This was just one anonymous person's idea

Even if you don't like the idea, surely the debate is a good thing.

Seriously, what's not to love?

The slightly odd dissonance between someone setting themselves up as the twitter representative of mountain bikers in the Peak and their/his/her continued anonymity? I'm not saying I blame them, but it's a bit Batman/Zorro. And I'm not knocking anyone, it just seems a bit odd.

I suspect it's because it's developed from a simple trail conditions twitter re-tweet feed, which is a great idea, to something a little wider. Not having a go, just wondering, you seem in with it all Podge, what's the anonymity about?

More generally, it seems like the kernel of a good idea, but but potentially a nightmare to administer. The idea of the industry putting some budget towards promoting trail riding as well as racing has more resonance with me tbh.

With a bit of luck...you'll never feel the ripples of what's happening here

legspin - Member
I wish the self professed keeper of the peak would bugger off. You do not represent me!

kotp is (primarily) a twitter feed, which anyone can contribute to, it's a shared resource.

BadlyWiredDog - Member
what's the anonymity about?

firstly, the name of TKOTP wasn't important, no-one cared.

now it's become a somewhat amusing in-joke.

Dave, his name's Dave, Dave Smith.

happy now?

I would happily make a contribution along the lines suggested. Question of course is who do I pay it to?

deviant - Member
There's a hell of a lot of entitlement in mountain biking.
This has needed to be said for a while now....riders turn up at man made trail centres, contribute nothing it terms of payment to ride them...do all they can to avoid carpark charges and then ride smugly away on a bike costing several thousand pounds.

It might be controversial this, but this also applies to the "new economy" of the internet, where everything is deemed to be free. I'm amazed at the number of regular contributors to this forum who don't seem to contribute towards its upkeep (or if they do it's not through the approximate 75p per week membership cost). As I see it, Singletrack do an awesome job to allow our sport/hobby this forum and most of us give very little back. How many people that sell gear on the forum actually pay a percentage back to the company? Very, very few.

Rant over - and I'll declare an interest, I don't work for Singletrack but I am in publishing and know what a tough gig it is nowadays - but all this does seem to be symptomatic of a wider issue in a sport/hobby where the majority think nothing of a couple of grand on a bike, or even £100 on a set of handlebars...

I don't think KotP has set themselves up as a representative of mountain bikers in the Peak. They are someone who has set up a crowd sourcing service to assist people, predominantly mountain bikers. When I worked in Hope I used to check it to see what the driving conditions were likely to be and whether I should maybe take the bike plus I know a few walkers who check it too.

KotP also works side by side with PDMTB, they both have the interests of cyclists in mind and both are centred in the Peak. I guess they didn't set out to be representatives, they just took it on and worked with like minded people when they saw something was missing.

As for the anonymity bit. I thought it was odd too but its not that hard to work out who it is (its not me) and it give them the ability to have a kind of professional and private life. Really is it any different to you giving yourself the username BWD on here and on your blog instead of being John Smith or whatever your actual name is?

Dave, his name's Dave, Dave Smith.

happy now?

I wasn't unhappy to begin with, I was just wondering as it seemed odd. Not so much as a twitter feed, but when an anonymous twitter account started making representations to the Rushup Edge enquiry thing it seemed a bit odd.

v8ninety - Serious question

There have been a number of instances where the local council have resurfaced tracks under the guise of "improvements" however the majority of users (not just mountain bikers) have been very unhappy with the works and would have preferred the tracks left as they are.

Around the same time the council were arguing that they should spend 70K on these track upgrades they were also making all the lollipop crossing people redundant

I'd be more than happy to donate to "MTB friends of the Peak District" on the basis that MTB interests where upheld and daft trail,destruction like that on Rushup Edge could be halted. FWIW I ride in the Peak about once or twice a year as its a 3.5hr drive, it's probably my favourite destination

BadlyWiredDog - Not so much as a twitter feed, but when an anonymous twitter account started making representations to the Rushup Edge enquiry thing it seemed a bit odd.

To some extent @kotp is now a brand or a known quantity, Dave Smith is a no one.

If BWD was organising a ride people might think "Oh, I know him. I might go on that, he knows loads of good rides". If John smith was organising a ride you wouldn't necessarily get the same return.

jambalaya - I'd be more than happy to donate to "MTB friends of the Peak District" on the basis that MTB interests where upheld and daft trail,destruction like that on Rushup Edge could be halted.

Thats basically what is being suggested albeit the donation is collected at the point of sale as a minor % of the product cost and MTB friends of the Peak District or PDMTB would collect that from the bigger national pot as having a big national pot is far easier to administrate.

Really is it any different to you giving yourself the username BWD on here and on your blog instead of being John Smith or whatever your actual name is?

I think it is subtly different yes, but I take your point.

Manufactures sell bikes and the blingy bits.

Seems like they should get a bit more (?even more?) involved in trail maintenance/access advocacy.

We're going off topic a bit here but kotp is a person who is giving freely of their time to help others and it seems to have evolved where that "reach" is being used to help promote trail advocacy. If it was me, I'd want some anonymity as well just so I could maintain a bit of a private life.

Given how selfless that person is, it sometimes feels like it must be a pretty short list of who it might be. Feels like this might be a chance to change direction and do a bit that helps others. Let's call it the corbyn effect.

BaronVonP7

They should but its never really going to happen because they are a business and the job of a business is to make money.

Bell do a kind of trail advocacy thing but we don't buy bell helmets because of that, we buy them because they are silly cheap at Halfords.

Keeper of the Peak offers a free service updating folks on trail conditions

Which is awesome if your such a dumb ass you cant actually decide if its banging it down, has been banging it down, or Noahs ark is in attendance due to floods, that it might be stupid to go out on a bike in the peak

If you feel so strongly why does KOTP and PDMTB not just put some charity donation buckets on some posts up in the peak for the feel better crowd to throw a few quid in?

Honestly it doesn't need organising to ride a bike just common sense amongst users.

Because they'd last a day before they were emptied?

phil, do you need a hug?

you're being awfully negative about something that's very, very easy for you to ignore completely.

some trails hold up to wet-weather better than others, you could write a list, but you'd have to update it frequently - hence the twitter feed.

I like this idea. When we started doing desperately-needed trail maintenance around Bristol, I just did the rounds of the local bike shops, asked for a few quid, and got the tools we needed. That was a fair amount of legwork, and it also meant that the financial burden of kitting us out fell on a few small businesses, rather than the wider mountain biking community. It's fair to say that there isn't a lot of spare cash sloshing around in the MTB industry, but the collective purchasing power of its customers is pretty decent.

There is also precedent - of a sort - in the visitor payback schemes that some rural areas are introducing. The Lake District scheme raises about £100,000 a year. This is targeting consumers rather than tourists but still - £100k would fund a lot of trail maintenance and advocacy work.

https://nurturelakeland.org/

I like what that Lakeland lot are trying to achieve. Their Sustainable Challenge Events echoes what happened with the BHF ride a month or so back.

I think the Peak district and to a lesser extent mountain bikers in the Peak could learn a lot from it.

I think I do my bit for local trials I'll do dig days whenever and I understand that I'm also digging for out of towners as well. As long as they don't leave their Rockstar/Redbull and tear offs on the trails I'm happy.

philxx1975 - Member
Keeper of the Peak offers a free service updating folks on trail conditions
Which is awesome if your such a dumb ass you cant actually decide if its banging it down, has been banging it down, or Noahs ark is in attendance due to floods, that it might be stupid to go out on a bike in the peak

If you feel so strongly why does KOTP and PDMTB not just put some charity donation buckets on some posts up in the peak for the feel better crowd to throw a few quid in?

Honestly it doesn't need organising to ride a bike just common sense amongst users.

Not sure why this has turned into a critique of KOTP but I have to say the above is a little harsh. I'm hoping it's for comedic effect rather than just being moronic.

I often use @KOTP to get and give updates on trail conditions and I've been riding in the Peak for 20 years. The trails in the Peak can be unpredictable, some, even after heavy rain can still be ridable, whereas others take a while to dry out (Cut Gate for example). It's always worth knowing what others have experienced.
Additionally, KOTP has connections, useful ones for MTBers. For example, I reported a tree down across one of the faster bits of the screaming mile, within the hour KOTP had passed it on to a contact at Severn Trent who were going to get up there to remove it. What's not to like about that?

Just had a beer with KoftheP and she's ace, I live in the Peak and would not dream of getting my bike out of the garage without checking in with her first!!

However, someone taking the time and effort to help those who can't just stick their heads out of the window to check the weather (and it can be very different in the Hope Valley compared to Sheffield) it may just save someone driving out only to have to go home because it's a bit too moist for them.

Re funding, it's fine to bang on about whose responsibility it is to maintain a trail but it they don't have the resources, funds or personnel to do it then they may head for the cheap quick solution - planings sprinf to mind.

KoftheP - just keep doing whay you are doing and looking sexy 😉

^wot he said

philxx1975 - Member
Which is awesome if your such a dumb ass you cant actually decide if its banging it down, has been banging it down, or Noahs ark is in attendance due to floods, that it might be stupid to go out on a bike in the peak

It's never stupid to go out on a bike in the Peak, there are stupid places to ride depending upon the prevailing conditions and, perhaps, a decision to made as to whether some form of jacket is in order, but otherwise it's just the weather.

"There's no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong type of clothes"

"There's no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong type of [s]clothes[/s] tyres"

To answer the original question - yes I would happily pay a small % of bike/frame cost as a 'Trail Tax'.

I think mountain biking still has a lot to learn from other organised advocacy groups such as the BMC, but the likes of CTC are doing good work.

I'm conscious that 'payment' often lends itself to a sense of entitlement and I wouldn't want non-payment to be a 'barrier to entry' but that's just down to education:

Many people [thankfully] contribute to MRTs and the RNLI etc not expecting to get 'their money's worth' themselves but in order to help others in their hour of need. I'm not sure if this altruism extends to funding trails, but I'd like to think that the examples set by Lady Cannings could be extended elsewhere.

I would happily pay to ride, be really good to have (for example) a Tweed Valley organisation similar to something like SORCA (Squamish off road cycling association) that I could donate to.

I am less happy about paying parking so the forestry commission can never maintain anything* and build houses over existing trails.

*(Don't exactly know the relationship between the Forestry Commission and GT Trail Fairys so I may be being unfair?)

I always drop a couple of quid in the collection tin at Comrie, as the amount of trails they build there would suggest that's exactly where it goes.

I'd gladly pay an annual rod licence type fee to go toward trail maintenance/construction.