Optimal bike choice and setup for riding down actual mountains

i have a starling murmur with a similar set up to your list. coil in the back air on the front. it’s perfectly good with an air shock, too.

don’t have soft springs but do like fast rebound

i live 250 meters up a 950 meter hill. short ride has about 350 meters of descending. some rough, some smooth.

65 degree head angle is trail bike territory these days, 63-64 is the sweet spot for most modern enduro bikes (which is ultimately what you are describing).

Air or coil - take your pick based on preference.

29 or Mullet - as above

Tyres / inserts - casing depends on terrain (I run Exo+ and not using inserts but live in the SE so a distinct lack of sharp rocks)

Bash guard and 200mm rotor - no reason not to

Bars - what you are comfortable with

Frame storage and bottle mount - I hate riding with a pack

I'd agree 65° head angle is a little steep for what you describe

Agree about the head angle, 65 max.

Bottle mount is mandatory but commonplace. Frame storage is nice but I'd never be up a mountain without a hip pack or rucksack depending on the season and size of mountain.

You’ve pretty much described my current bike - a Deviate Claymore. 180mm Zeb Ultimates at the front, Hayes dominion A4s with 200mm rotors, and Continental Kryptotal Dh tyres. Only difference is that I’m on clips as I find it easier to move the bike around vs flats.

Sure, it’s a bit of a lump to pedal xc on, but if I’m heading to the top of any mountain in the uk (world?), there’s no bike I’d rather be on right now.

What’s that… did someone say honeymoon period? 😆

a Deviate Claymore. 180mm Zeb Ultimates at the front

sounds ideal.

i also like a soft compound front tyre. the feel calmer over rough rocks and the extra grip is good when it’s steep, regardless of the surface

It just sounds like you want an enduro bike, then fiddle with it to get it set up to your preferences. I always assume that new stem and bars will be needed to get a new bike set up.

Aside from the 65 degree head angle (go slacker, 64 absolute max) you've described my Geometron.

In fact, it was built with exactly just that type of riding in mind. Big days in the mountains, natural Lakes/Scottish descents, rocky fast stuff, slow Ricky steep stuff, steep rooty stuff. I don't do much air, only really 2-3ft drops on occasion so maximum plushness is my aim.

Super gravity tyres, 62.5 head angle, BB height and chainstay length and head angle can be adjusted to your liking. Ext coil shock, 175 rear/170 front travel, 220/203mm rotors with hope V4 brakes, one-up carbon bar, room for a small bottle, frame pack and pump which means I go out for 1-2hr rides with no pack. 240mm dropper so it's really out of the way.

It may be 17kg but it's extremely comfortable on xc type stuff too.

They do all sizes to suit from 5ft 2 to 6ft 7. It's probably not the best on super tight switchbacks but that's nothing some technique won't fix.

https://flic.kr/p/2nVPZb2

Deviate Claymore

With one of these being a very close second choice. Probably the biggest choice will be if you want to go with carbon or alloy.

It's not just upping your rotor sizes. I was warping Shimano 203mm rotors and swapped to SRAM HS2 and love them. One came slightly warped and goes back to that warp under intense heat, but not so much as the Shimanos that became unusable after they'd warped.

My Slayer runs anywhere from 63.8deg to 64.8deg depending on where you're running the Flip-Chip. So fits right within your criteria. It's harder uphill than the Fuel 9.8 was, but i knew that before buying it. I've only tried inserts a few times but i REALLY disliked the install process and really disliked how they felt on the trail.... So i don't run inserts.
I deffo prefer coil over air though, even with the greater weight.

You’ll need to be able to carry it too. Make sure the bottle mount (if you’re planning on having one) doesn’t interfere with optimal carrying position.

I don’t think the head-angle is as important as people are making out!

65deg is plenty slack enough for all day epics! Especially with a fair bit of climbing thrown in.

I mean how did we all cope 3/4 years ago……

I mean how did we all cope 3/4 years ago……

We were running slacker head angles than 65 degrees...

Only point I'd disagree on the original OP's spec is the high BB - I prefer a low BB and shorter cranks.

Just pick whichever reasonably well regarded enduro bike fits your budget, and then fit tyres that suit your terrain.

I mean how did we all cope 3/4 years ago……

Schools had drills on tuck and roll

180mm Zeb Ultimates at the front

What makes a fork that long better than say a 160mm for this use?

It just sounds like you want an enduro bike

This is just curiosity. I don't live close enough to anywhere that would justify having such a bike, nor am I fit/strong enough to take it up them. But I might apply the setup thoughts to my own bike on days away.

You’ll need to be able to carry it too. Make sure the bottle mount (if you’re planning on having one) doesn’t interfere with optimal carrying position.

Specifically, does this mean not under the downtube?

Only point I’d disagree on the original OP’s spec is the high BB – I prefer a low BB and shorter cranks.

I had in mind closer to 30mm than 40mm drop.

Highlander.

I also choose Justin's Deviate Claymore.

But seriously, and as others have probably said...

- Coil fork, or a chonky air fork like a Zeb to stay on track through the rocks
- Tough tyres & rims with inserts so I can let go the brakes with confidence
- Slack HA for confidence on those steep & awkward bits
- 170mm+ travel both ends is nice to have (but not essential)
- Not a total dog to pedal (because you have to go up as well as down)

It may be 17kg but it’s extremely comfortable on xc type stuff too.

Maybe I’m weird, but that sounds like purgatory to me. I have a big enduro bike & it’s great for enduro type riding, but at just under 16kg, it’s absolutely rubbish for anything pedally & flat.

Comparing it to an 11.5kg downcountry (urgh) bike, it doesn’t stand a chance. But then my unpopular opinion is, 95% of the time, the shorter travel, lighter bike is faster, more fun & probably the better choice for most people 🙂

As for my big bike, there is no carbon on it, as I’ve cracked too many. Frustratingly the fastest bike I’ve owned was also the most unreliable (Dreadnought) so if someone could make one of them, which actually didn’t fall apart, I’d be all over it, but no-one does so I have a Raaw Madonna, coil shock, air fork, big brakes, decent wheels & decent tyres. No inserts, as they suck & sensible geometry - it gets ridden & generally not looked after, but it just works.

@chakaping  get your hands off, this ones mine 😀

What makes a fork that long better than say a 160mm for this use?

Nothing specifically directly related to the travel, but the frame is designed around a 170 or 180 fork, and I couldn't get hold of a 170 Zeb Ultimate at the time. I could drop to a 170 air shaft but I've not noticed any issues so far, and I'd still be carrying around the same chassis so I'm just going to enjoy it for now. The steep seat angle on the Claymore means that the front end doesn't rise up when climbing either.

Also, the Zeb is a heck of a lot stiffer than a 36, and that's a big help when tackling steep rocky descents.

Maybe I’m weird, but that sounds like purgatory to me. I have a big enduro bike & it’s great for enduro type riding, but at just under 16kg, it’s absolutely rubbish for anything pedally & flat.

You'd think that, but no. Of course, it's not going to win any xc races, and on really tight, twisty pedally stuff it can feel big (because it is!), but when 'covering ground' on flatish terrain it really zips along and is extremely comfortable. When Benji reviewed the G1 on STW he had the same thoughts.

https://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/review-geometron-g1/#:~:text=I t's%20roomy.,big%20days%20out%20much%20easier.

What kind of mountains are we talking? UK stuff which ain't really that big and you've got to get up there first; lift accessed alpine footpath trails or proper backcountry with a 4 hr climb/hikeabike first at which point weight becomes an issue too?

I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by my Rocket Max in the Alps this summer. Obviously I was expecting it to be good on the fast/rough/open stuff, but it was amazingly competent on the super tight tech too. Slack HA, long WB and lowish BB meant it was very stable, which added calm to proceedings and meant you had thinking time rather than just surviving. Cleared La Varda on it for those that know it...

Other bits.
Air shock struggled on the rougher faster descents - damper fade definitley a thing, so if the frame leverage rate suits a coil, I'd go that way. No issues with the fork.
63.5HA felt plenty sharp enough.
Big tough tyres and/or inserts (WTB grippy/light F @ fastrolling/tough R worked for me)
I was very happy on spds (as a former flats rider). The stability of the bike means there's far fewer "saves" needed and its much easier to haul the back end about without thinking on clips. Better clearance too.
Cranks are a non-issue. I'm still very happy on 175mm.
Bashguard
Basic setup was unchanged to usual UK riding. 200F/180R rotor was plenty (I'm 65kg though). No changes to damping or cockpit setup - why would I want the bike to react differently to what I'm used to?
Bottle mounts etc are an irrelevance, as I'd be wearing a pack for anything backcountryish anyway (plus a pack makes carrying the bike more comfortable)

Air shock struggled on the rougher faster descents – damper fade definitley a thing, so if the frame leverage rate suits a coil, I’d go that way. No issues with the fork.

Do you need the spring was heating resulting in a pressure increase (and hence faster rebound, firmer compression feel)? Dampers on coil shocks overheat just as much, the only difference is that the spring wont be affected

Faster rebound and softer compression. The back end just went really wallowy. The airspring was definitely heating up too (think warm mug of tea levels), but the aircan is wrapped around the damper and insulates it so its harder for the damper to shed heat.

Not saying that coils don't fade too, but it takes longer to do so.

Pretty much any of the current crop of good enduro bikes will do this? 170/160 and a good coil shock. Nukeproof, Marin, Trek, Privateer etc and those above all have models that do the job!

My new Propain Tyee has been surprising for me; it pedals up well, it’s no slouch on the flats and leaves me feeling fresh after longish DH runs, although the longest has been top to bottom at Hopton / Bucknell etc, that’s usually a very good barometer for me on longer stuff. With 1.2kg tyres and rimpact pros, it really shouldn’t be able to be described as poppy and jumpy, but it is! I do feel like I should send flowers and a thank you to rimpact and Propain, it’s taken some serious hits that would have blown out my tyres in the past. 🙂

You’d think that, but no. Of course, it’s not going to win any xc races, and on really tight, twisty pedally stuff it can feel big (because it is!), but when ‘covering ground’ on flatish terrain it really zips along and is extremely comfortable.

I definitely sound dismissive, but having ridden a geometron & having a bike thats probably a mildly watered down one (in terms of geometry & weight), it might be a comfortable position, but they are dogsh*t on mild terrain, compared to a decent DC bike. That’s not just the bike though - a decent amount of that comes from the spec you generally run on a long travel alternative.

Reliability however - brilliant & great on the straight up & down style riding. That’s why I have something similar, for racing, those valleys days where trails are defined by levels of steepness & trips abroad where bikes get battered.

Damn you...

< goes off to find out how much a deviate whatsit would cost>

@thegeneralist - More than you’d like, but not as much as you think.

It was superb on Ullock last night. Would be ideal for ticking off the Wainwrights 😉

I'm surprised at how much travel many folk are using; I'm on 35mm stanchion, 140mm travel coil Helm for my 'big' bike, a four year old Flare Max with 120mm at the back and a Cane Creek shock. That combination is more than happy on everything in the Highlands and has been on high Alpine, guided weeks and Alpine bikepacking too. Torridon, Big days in the Gorms, Ben MacDhui, Alder, Sgorr Gaoith etc etc..
Yes, there is a place for more travel but a tighter bike doesn't lurch into its travel and change angles nearly as fast as a bigger rig. In this sort of terrain, I'm more concerned about pedal strikes from a bike that's too low than ultimate travel, dropping me too close to those boulders. The Flare is a little lighter for carrying up Beinn a Ghlo, for the Angus glens and survives for the steeper woods days too. Anyway, you may have other views but I like this particular compromise, it works for me. But then, I have been known to ride the 130mm Solaris in those same locations too.

Some people just like a skills compensator rather than a rocket ship.

Just because person A can get down on a 120mm hardtail on something, some of us need a bit more help and a 170mm slack 29er is needed to feel 'comfortable'

But where does the adrenaline rush come from if you're not holding on for dear life, trying not to die??

But where does the adrenaline rush come from if you’re not holding on for dear life, trying not to die??

That's the point... i am 🙂

LOL

Last weekends DH race, trust me, i was trying not to die... However, there were kids of 10 on a 24/26" wheel who got down it quicker than me. But... i was still on my limit.

I’m surprised at how much travel many folk are using

Given that air is both free and has no weight penalty, I'm amazed folks still choose a fork with less travel for these sorts of bikes. I mean geometry requirements aside, clearly you can ride most things with a 120-140mm fork, but everything is so much less stressful (apart from jumping obvs) with a bit more travel available to you, why not go for it? Longer travel forks are no harder to maintain, has almost no weight penalties (a bit more material sometimes, but often not) and will help you to dig yourself out of more marginal situations.

The "bad workman blames his tools" is I think a uniquely UK-centric view, most others see it as "right tool for the job"

Some people just like a skills compensator rather than a rocket ship.

Just because person A can get down on a 120mm hardtail on something, some of us need a bit more help and a 170mm slack 29er is needed to feel ‘comfortable’

Guilty!

But where does the adrenaline rush come from if you’re not holding on for dear life, trying not to die??

You just end up going faster, and/or riding stuff you would have been hesitant about on a 'lesser' bike. I'm not saying that my old bike was the limit, it most definitely wasn't... More that having that extra amount of capability makes me feel more comfortable on gnarlier stuff, and more capable of riding stuff beyond my normal limits. Because the bike is so damn capable it's allowed me to push my limits more.

And with suspension designs now, even the most slackest, longest, coil shock equipped(est) gnarpoon will pedal fairly well. I've gone from 150mm rear travel to 175mm and honestly it's hard to tell - if anything the bigger bike pedals better.

This thread is a perfect example of how broad a church mtb is, even when attempting to agree on what 'riding down a mountain' even is and what it entails.

Throw in old skool dogmatic thinking with the new skool progressives and a whole shitload of mis-information, poor understanding, marketing-as-wisdom and down right ignorance and you get the STW forum - and thats the most erudite of the forums IMO!

😁

Yes, there is a place for more travel but a tighter bike doesn’t lurch into its travel and change angles nearly as fast as a bigger rig

Sounds like the bigger rig is badly setup

Given that air is both free and has no weight penalty, I’m amazed folks still choose a fork with less travel for these sorts of bikes. I mean geometry requirements aside, clearly you can ride most things with a 120-140mm fork, but everything is so much less stressful (apart from jumping obvs) with a bit more travel available to you, why not go for it?

Generally a 180mm Zeb for example, is a decent chunk more in weight than a Pike or a 34. The shocks are also heavier, as they are larger in size, and style as most of them on longer travel bikes are essentially DH shocks where shorter bikes are predominantly inline style or small trail piggyback options.

However it’s not weight variance that makes the difference it’s how the bike uses it. Comparing shorter travel bikes to big enduro sleds is wildly different. Pedalling my Spec Enduro at 180/170 is really not my idea of fun, compared to my 24lb Stumpy.

I also cannot comprehend how delusional people are about how great these massive bikes are at pedalling and riding mellow terrain.

Never a truer phrase than Skills Compensation.

This thread is a perfect example of how broad a church mtb is, even when attempting to agree on what ‘riding down a mountain’ even is and what it entails.

(Steeples hands). This word "mountain" is an important word, a word with very rich and complex meanings. Let's unpack this word and see what comes tumbling out. Many people think of a "mountain" as a place, or a thing, but really, a mountain is an idea, an idea that each of us holds differently. How we conceptualize that idea and relate it to our self-concept is an important part of how we construct our identity as a "mountain" biker.... (continues talking for three hours while the audience watch videos of cats on their phones).

I also cannot comprehend how delusional people are about how great these massive bikes are at pedalling and riding mellow terrain.

The thing is, i don't give a toss how it pedals.. I couldn't care less how it climbs, how it goes along the SDW, Ridgeway or across a Pennine trail... I don't care if the ascent at Afan takes me 30 mins or 34 mins... It's just getting to the top/over/up something. The bike is for going down, the rest... it's just 'time'

Wonderful follow up. Chapeau.

@scienceofficer has it nailed.

Monday night I rode my 18kg 180/155 triple clamped (Nero R’s set at 180 internally, but with the negative chamber overinflated so they are around 165mm) Geometron.

Tuesday my 14Kg 140mm Hardtail.
Both in the same area, but different trails, both rides were great and I was on the right bike for want I from them on both ride.

Monday
https://strava.app.link/WikNCx81Zxb

Tuesday
https://strava.app.link/3nkog7b2Zxb

Never a truer phrase than Skills Compensation

This is my comment about bad workmen blaming their tools...Can't get down that (from the OP)  long rough descents on sustained chunky terrain On your 24lb XC bike?

It's clearly your skill level.

Most folks have the cash for one "nice" bike, and buy the thing that will make the bits they enjoy doing more fun, while being willing to compromise on the bits that they don't enjoy with half an eye on their local terrain. I used to live in the Chilterns, and the bike I regularly rode then was completely different to the bike I ride now in Calderdale. If you want a bike for long rough descents that you can* pedal, it makes more sense (to me at least) to buy the most bang for your buck.

* being the operative word, I tested a Geometron and like @ta11pau1 and others, I found it less shit - for a given value of "not a XC bike designed solely for going fast" than I was expecting.

I’m surprised at how much travel many folk are using; I’m on 35mm stanchion, 140mm travel coil Helm for my ‘big’ bike, a four year old Flare Max with 120mm at the back and a Cane Creek shock. That combination is more than happy on everything in the Highlands and has been on high Alpine, guided weeks and Alpine bikepacking too. Torridon, Big days in the Gorms, Ben MacDhui, Alder, Sgorr Gaoith etc etc..
Yes, there is a place for more travel but a tighter bike doesn’t lurch into its travel and change angles nearly as fast as a bigger rig. In this sort of terrain, I’m more concerned about pedal strikes from a bike that’s too low than ultimate travel, dropping me too close to those boulders. The Flare is a little lighter for carrying up Beinn a Ghlo, for the Angus glens and survives for the steeper woods days too. Anyway, you may have other views but I like this particular compromise, it works for me. But then, I have been known to ride the 130mm Solaris in those same locations too.

I've the same FlareMax, but with a 150mm Lyric, 132mm at the rear and -2 headset - it'll do anything my new 170 FS will do, just not quite as composed on seriously rough stuff. They punch well above their 'weight'.

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Between the (not so) humble brags of the Gnarpoons on their boutique short travel/hard tail weapons, there's a couple of gems.

As for skills compensator, I prefer skills facilitator for the Slayer.