[Closed] Is softshell apparel actually crap?

I wonder if we're going full circle on this?

Back in the day (jumpers for goalposts, when all this was fields etc.) there were two garments that the entire UK mountain bike community held sacred, both made by Polaris - the pertex wind shirt for windproof and showerproof, and the good old retro-active fleece for colder weather - light fleece with a pertex shell making it wind and shower proof, and side zips to dump heat (was this the first proper cycling soft shell?)

Throw in a soak in polar plus and this was more than enough to shed 95% of UK weather, rarely if ever resorting to waterproofs.

Do we need to update and bring back the old gear and drop all the fancy pants laminates and funky labels ?

After reading this thread I am starting to wonder if adding a decent fleece in place of my gilet might be an answer for 5 deg and under temps

I have started cycling in my montane jaguar fleece in cold but dry weather, has just enough wind resistance, but properly breaths and wicks fantastically. The problem comes when the weather is a bit more damp, then finding a balance can become quite difficult.

I find most montane style pertex windshirts are no where near as breathable as claimed, they are probably fine for those that don't sweat much as they offer virtually no insulation to raise the body temp. But for those of us who can easily build up a sweat they are nearly as clammy as a full on waterproof. I would only use on as a "just in case" option to be kept in a backpack.

Bloody love windproof softshells I've got a few, lighter weight and heavy, baselayer and a softshell job done. Don't bother with waterproofs anymore softshell will shrug off a bit of rain the showerproof pacamac in my 'bak will shrug off some more if needed, in a waterproof in heavy rain I'll probably be as wet from sweat so aslong as I'm warm and wet in my softshell I'm happy. They're breathable, once you've stopped windchill you don't need a lot of insulation. Only problem is if you do long pub/cafe stops, you may be get cold and have trouble warming up when you go back out, if you're gonna stop just pack a thin jersey.

Back in the day (jumpers for goalposts, when all this was fields etc.) there were two garments that the entire UK mountain bike community held sacred, both made by Polaris

^^ what D0NK said ^^

I can't bloody stand wearing waterproofs under any circumstances, as I generally tend to sweat like Jimmy Saville at a school disco.

It has to be properly bucketing down before I'll bother with a jacket of any description. I've a pretty lightweight Endura fleece that must be the most worn item of clothing I've ever owned. If the rain starts approaching biblical proportions, then I'll put a lightweight Sombrio soft-shell on. Its great ipit zips down to the elbows. I've got a heavier Race Face one thats good when the temperature is hovering around freezing.

I honestly don't know how anyone wears 'proper' hardshell jackets. They're just horrible! And the word 'breathable' is the most laughably abused in the English language. What it actually means is 'you might sweat slightly less than if you wrapped yourself in cling-film'

Softshell is more of a general concept than a specific thing. Take each jacket on its own merits. I use some really thin softshells as an outer layer cos they are a bit warmer and more comfy than pertex. I've never bought that kind of jacket that the OP links to though because they cost a bloody fortune and are just too thick and warm for cycling, for me.

I do use waterproofs, but only very rarely and in specific circumstances.

In reality most "softshells" are not softshells.

I do use waterproofs, but only very rarely and in specific circumstances.

I rarely wear mine even when raining though, I find that you don't actually get that wet from the water coming from the sky, use mudguards (on the road) and still wear a softshell unless it's absolutely bucketing down. Don't think I've ridden in a waterproof for a couple of years.

we are not all so fast we can avoid the rain like you though 😉
I agree in proper rain though I wear waterproofs and also when it rains when it is really cold
the main issue is staying warm not staying dry

About the only time I've nearly regretted lack of waterproofs is in an unexpected really heavy very cold rain shower, and then it's been my knees/legs more than my body/arms that have been suffering and not many people seem to bother with stealths or other waterproof pants.

I do have stealths and tend to wear those when it's going to be a long ride in damp conditions, usually with a softshell up top.

we are not all so fast we can avoid the rain like you though

🙂

Joking aside I very very rarely stop whilst out riding - which may make temperature regulation easier. Probably have a mid-ride cake stop, but will rarely just stand around chatting at all during a ride.

You must also live in the flatlands, riding uphill for 20-30 mins and then descending for 5-10 mins makes temperature regulation much harder than the odd couple of minutes chatting.

Joking aside I very very rarely stop whilst out riding - which may make temperature regulation easier.

You must also live in the flatlands, riding uphill for 20-30 mins and then descending for 5-10 mins makes temperature regulation much harder than the odd couple of minutes chatting.

Mmm, yep don't do many climbs that long. Will often undo the zip 6" on my jacket when climbing.

Merino for active sports is one of the biggest marketing cons ever, wet, cold and clammy, very expensive, total marketing hype by our antipodean cousins.

Great for socks though!

You gotta make sure you're wearing this seasons colours, nothing clashes and no one has the same ensemble as you

For what it's worth, I'm a fan of a softshell with a baselayer underneath. Normally go for merino or a Helly. Both work well. Again, 10 degrees or below for that set up.

I've got a couple of softshells - a Rapha for the road and a Gore for offroad. Both work equally as well, but Rapha has a better fit and pit zips plus is a bit more breathable.

Oh and I never wear a waterproof. Just don't see the need.

Merino for active sports is one of the biggest marketing cons ever, wet, cold and clammy, very expensive, total marketing hype by our antipodean cousins.

Not very hard wearing either. Only full price merino base layer I bought, ice breaker, has now worn through the small of the back from camelbak usage. Never worn on its own either.

I take a small light waterproof if I am going into the mountains for an all dayer and it looks like rain. I don't want to be cold and tired then suddenly soaked with freezing lashing rain.

The only other time is if I am off to do a long training ride and it's already raining hard when I set off. Getting soaked and freezing before you warm up is much harder than getting wet when you're already warm.

Quick update:
- went out last week again, lower temperature than first try (now -3 to -6°C), additional windstopper gillet under soft shell jacket
Result: less cold than week before (when temps were around +6°C), still clamy and coldish around shoulders at the end of the ride due to evaporative chill effect)

- went out yesterday with my old standard set of clothing for coldish weather (warm baselayer, heavy merino mid-layer, windproof gillet) while conditions were inbetween (+3°C to 0°C) and surprise: it was pretty much OK for most parts of the ride only slightly cold around arms after short breaks but OK as soon as I got going for a few minutes. Only at the end of the 4h ride after stopping and chatting for 10 minutes in the cold and then heading back home I felt pretty cold (who wouldn't). I added a thin hardshell windbreaker jacket (Endura Helium Jacket) which sorted the cold completely after a few minutes. I felt warm and dry for the rest of the ride.

Coming home the inside of the jacket was pretty wet the baselayer and merino more or less damp.

[u]Which proofs my point:[/u]
(at least from my point of view and for my kind of sweating and perceived warmth/cold...)

- a soft shell gets clamy as a whole and cold as result due to evaporative chill

- a hardshell is separated from the base- and midlayer by a buffer of air, ist may also keep dampness more inside. All of this results in less evaporative chill.

[i]-> Gore Tool Jacket for sale! 😐 :wink:[/i]

"Softshell" is one of the most abused terms in outdoor gear.

It truly covers a multitude of sins from windstopper fleeces to essentially showerproof jackets.

I have been using a Howies Outback Jacket (old model but basically the smae as the current one for the last 5 or so winters.

They aren't cheap (well my was actually but thats another story) but it works really well from about 8 degress with a short sleeve baseleyer underneath down to...well I've not actually found it's limit in terms of temp. I have been out in about -10c and with a short sleeve baselayer and long sleeve baselayer I was perfect.

I need to get round to renewing the DWR on mine but even in "medium" rain it's fine.

If I'm heading into the mountains for a big day I'd take a proper storm shell too for when I stop or if the weather terns really nasty.

For 6 degC I'd only use a long sleeved Helly Hansen with a Montane Velo windproof jacket over top, oh and bib tights. Only use my Girodana softshell for cycling when temps are around 2 degC or less and even then offroad it can be too hot. Sometimes I think you just have to accept you'll be a little sweaty and warm on the ups, and a tad chilly on the descents, as long as it isn't too extreme either way you'll be fine.

Agreed the merino is a crappy baselayer, but as a mid layer for walking it's pretty good.

RAB Vapour rise jackets are great softshells for walking, but I don't think they'd work for cycling.

NB: I'll try not to stop in cold weather, hence, can use fairly lightweight kit. If you stop a lot you'll need warmer gear, so you don't freeze when stopped.

Trouble is, it's too warm still for a Tool when doing high output activities.

I have an old N2S Gore Complete that I've worn from 30C to zero. When it's hot, the sleeves come off, when it's less than about 8C, I use a synthetic base. For me, Merino is shite as it takes ages to dry (from sweat or sky juice) and goes clammy and saggy and chills you.

Colder than about zero (or just above), I use a Tool. When it's very cold, I wear a synthetic base with it.

For either when it's cold, I take a pertex windproof and use this to avoid getting cold during/immediately after stops.

Softshells are OK but they're really a solution looking for a problem as were their predecessors, the Buffalo 'system'....

There seem to be a lot of people wearing two shell bits at the same time on this thread- recipe for getting clammy I'd have thought?
Anyway, a lot of the stuff sold as softshell isn't what I think of as softshell. A lot of them seem to be basically un-taped waterproofs with a fleece layer attached (Endura Stealth?) which seem to miss the point to me. Something like Rab Vapour Rise is more like it I reckon.
Windstopper ( as in Gore) is nowhere near breathable enough for me personally. I'm a big fan of Pertex type fabrics over a base layer- if you're working hard that works in all but the very worst conditions IME.