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Keep em coming folks! This is great entertainment!.................for a few minutes each night.
are we dispensing with the distinction between ‘assist’ and ‘driven’ now? Not ideologically, not hyperbolically, not ‘in a manner of speaking to all intents and purposes’. I mean literally. Are you categorically claiming that there is no physical distinction to be made between ‘motor-assist’ and ‘motor-driven?
Well, you don't seem to be - considering it was only in 2016 that pedalling was made a legal requirement in ebikes (and then only for over 3.5mph).
So, the pedal-assist is a totally artificial construct. And the amount of power you have to put in (because of the artificial construct, remember?) is minimal compared to the output that the motor gives you.
They're motorbikes. Poorly disguised, but motorbikes nonetheless.
So, the pedal-assist is a totally artificial construct. And the amount of power you have to put in (because of the artificial construct, remember?) is minimal compared to the output that the motor gives you.
You.
Have.
To.
Pedal.
Them.
To.
Make.
Them.
Go.
Let's have a poll. Who thinks ebikes are the same as motorbikes
Yes - chevychase
No - absolutely everyone else
THat's sorted out then.
Why does it matter what an ebike is or isn't?
Just seems to be a too and throw of protecting ones ego, those on the side of "it's not a motorbike" are kind of supporting my point, it seems the default for an ebike lover is that they've got to justify their decision to use one at every possible opportunity, what does it matter as along as you enjoy it? Guilty pleasure?
Then on the other side, ebike haters, why keep on poking the ebike fans? Easy targets? Really that much of a nazi hermit?
It's being outdoors on a toy, does it really matter?
it seems the default for an ebike lover is that they’ve got to justify their decision to use one at every possible opportunity
I don't own one, and probably never will, but trying to say 15.5mph power assisted bicycle is the same thing as a 900cc 200mph motorbike is just wrong and doesn't help any debate about their use, safety on shared paths, need for licences, MOTs etc,. etc,.
^ +1 what Dean said. I don’t get it. Call it a motorbike if if makes you feel better.
They make it possible to climb a steep hill at a third of the speed that you can descend it on a non-assist/assist bike. What’s the issue/risk?
To non-mountain bikers, we’re all a bunch of arseholes - they don’t differentiate, not sure why we are?
+1 what Kerley said. I don’t own one either. Nothing to do with my ‘ego’ either, and for same reasons. Play the ball, not the man etc...assuming makes an ass of you and me!
Presumably most of you remember actual mopeds, the ones with pedals. They don’t need to have pedals anymore but that legal classification covers motorbikes up to 4000W.
So we have standard ebikes, up to 250W.
Mopeds up to 4,000W (I believe this also covers derestricted or ‘speed pedelecs’)
Light motorbikes up to 11,000W.
Standard motorbikes up to 35,000W.
And then any bikes more powerful than that.
Obviously people with quasi-religious arguments will take no notice of this.
But for the rest of us, it’s interesting to note that the big motorbike classification is only nine times as powerful as the mopeds that 16 year olds can ride, whilst the step in power from an ebike to a 50cc scooter restricted to 30mph is sixteen-fold.
When you say “loophole”
I assume you mean
“the specific legal classification of an ebike, that was made specifically for ebikes to differentiate them from motorbikes,
Sounds like the very definition of a loophole to me; a specific exception made in legislation to allow a bike, with a motor, to not have to comply with motorbike rules. Because, y’know, it’s only a little, quiet motor and you have to make a show of ‘pedalling’ to make the MOTOR drive the BIKE. 🙄
I’m not saying that they don’t look great fun, I’d love a go on one. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be allowed; in all for getting people out and active. I may even get one when I’m older. But I am surprised that people are so keen to argue black is white and say they aren’t motorcycles, in the sense that so is a moped, a scooter and an electric road motorbike. They may be different classes of motorcycle, but they all have a motor and two wheels. A push bike has NO motor, therefor it’s NOT a motorbike. It’s quite simple really. Nowt quasi religious about my point of view, it’s just logical.
“They may be different classes of motorcycle, but they all have a motor and two wheels. A push bike has NO motor, therefor it’s NOT a motorbike. It’s quite simple really. Nowt quasi religious about my point of view, it’s just logical.”
Yes but no. Because from the perspective of how they interact with the planet and everything else on it when being ridden, the impact of an ebike is far more like that of a pushbike than any motorbike.
What something DOES is more important than what it IS.
you have to make a show of ‘pedalling’ to make the MOTOR drive the BIKE.
I have tried an ebike, back when they were called ‘pedelecs’. A Kalkhoff Sahel. It was a compact utility bike. Not sure if it worked the same way as today’s MTB ‘ebikes’ that we are assumedly talking about here but you certainly didn’t have to make a ‘show’ of pedalling. You pedalled and the motor assisted at different levels (3, from low to high)
It had around 70km of range
If you were simply ‘making a show’ of pedalling and the motor as you claim does all the work, then how would it go that far on such a small battery? And when I stopped putting any effort in, the bike also stopped. How is that possible if the motor is the only thing driving it? It didn’t have a ‘throttle’ either. So what it actually ‘does’ is assist my pedalling, no?
There seems to be an ‘either/or’ , X vs Y kind of stubbornness in a ‘logical’ argument that seeks to exclude physical realities such as X+Y=Z
the gripe is we have to read about motorbikes in mags and forums previously dedicated to human powered cycling
So what?
What's the point of cycling? Powering yourself unassisted? Or getting out into the hills, shredding gnar, having fun etc? Cos all but one apply to e-bikes just the same.
“They may be different classes of motorcycle, but they all have a motor and two wheels. A push bike has NO motor, therefor it’s NOT a motorbike. It’s quite simple really. Nowt quasi religious about my point of view, it’s just logical.”
A motor (2 motors, actually) cycle, earlier...
Actual lol at any comparison between even a chipped Ebike and an actual motorbike, i can only assume that anyone who thinks they are similar hasn’t even ridden a learner legal machine, never mind a real bike.
Actual motorbikes need fuel to go (petrol/electric/whatever)
Ebikes can use fuel to assist the riders output, but they can be ridden when the fuel is depleted.
Literally the only thing they have in common is 2 wheels.
I hate to break it to the haterz but if you look at e-bike sales then I’m afraid you’ve lost the argument. Rant as much as you like, but e-bikes are a thing & they are here to stay.
What something DOES is more important than what it IS.
Couldn’t agree more. E-bikes are vastly less damaging to the environment than even low powered IC mopeds (although still not as environmentally friendly as a push bike). But as you concede, they ARE ‘motor’bikes.
they ARE ‘motor’bikes.
‘those’ scare quotes look suspiciously like a goalpost on the move 😉
If it looks and quacks like a duck...right?
Rant as much as you like, but e-bikes are a thing & they are here to stay.
E-bikes yes but when the laws were created they had these in mind.
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But these weren't even considered.
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I think at some point there'll be a relook at e-mtb's and thier use on bridleways and shared off road paths.
Sounds like the very definition of a loophole to me; a specific exception made in legislation to ..
That's not what a loophole is, it's a gap or flaw in legislation that's exploited.
We can call them what we like, it's still just semantics and subjectives. A philosophical debate*. Ebike laws were drawn up to classify a new product type, the product is legally distinct from other 2-wheeled vehicles. There's type-approval formats, definitions in import duties, EN testing, traffic rules, etc.
Call it a motorbike if you want to but from a legal POV there are bicycles, EPACs, S-pedelecs (which are close to or same as mopeds), mopeds and motorbikes.
If you can find a gap in the legislation on bikes, EPACS and mopeds that means an e-bike truly is a motorbike then good for you, you are the new Mr Loophole : )
(*since I like a bit of cod-philosophical debate rather than GAS what others ride, my take on e-bikes is that they're really not the same as a pedal bikes, seen through my own biases. Much of the experience is the same but it lacks a part that's crucial to me. Most E-bikes are pedal-assisted and I like pedalling unassisted unless it's by gravity. Throttle-only 250W-25km/h road legal E-bikes are an odd one, functionally I'd agree they're mopeds but in terms of weight and risk etc -where some of the classification comes from- they seem closer to EPACs and bikes than trad petrol mopeds. All that could make a French VeloSolex an E-bike if it wasn't for the petrol motor ... and then I'd argue that the motor type is only relevant if there's an emissions aspect to the classification - dunno if there is tbh.)
Sounds like the very definition of a loophole to me; a specific exception made in legislation
Yeah, That’s not what a loophole is. But never mind.
But these weren’t even considered.
At 20mph as it goes down a hill that looks no different to the average walker etc than most Enduro or DH bikes that have been around for a long time. Add in a full-face lid and the motorbiker look is complete, whatever you're riding.
(I don't fully disagree with you, but for me it's back to 'dicks will be dicks' rather than a problem with the specific products)
Back to the OP I didn’t think the video was that bad it was just a meeting of minds one evangelical about ebikes Mr Jones and one who’s all about the physical side being part of the experience Henry Quinney. I thought it was an enjoyable bit of tar with a coffee tbh!!
Mobility scooters in a way, aren't they?
Mobility scooters in a way, aren’t they?
1/10. Back to troll school for you.
Mobility scooters in a way, aren’t they?
Nah, they have 4 wheels and an engine, so are exactly the same as cars.
Agreed. ^ Cars are just mobility ‘scooters’ (When I say ‘scooter’ I say it in the sense they say ‘hamster’, when Richard Hammond isn’t a real hamster)
Thing is with these new ‘cars’ (trendy mobility scooters) is they use a loophole in the law to sneak them into shopping areas and motorbike parks.
“They may be different classes of motorcycle, but they all have a motor and two wheels. A push bike has NO motor, therefor it’s NOT a motorbike. It’s quite simple really. Nowt quasi religious about my point of view, it’s just logical.”
A motor (2 motors, actually) cycle, earlier…
I think it was kind of obvious that the motor was part of the primary drivetrain.
They are (very low powered) motorbikes. They are not solely human powered vehicles. Some mopeds do have pedals. I have no problem with any motorbike used responsibly and vaguely in line with the law; I think people that derestrict their ebikes are asking for trouble both for ebiking in general and themselves in particular if they're unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident.
Mobility scooters in a way, aren’t they?
Nah, they have 4 wheels and an engine, so are exactly the same as cars.
They seem a lot like a motorised carriage to me. Although again, very low powered. I have seen some with number plates, I imagine they're considered as something weird under the law, but basically they're a slow low powered car.
One thing that amazes me about ebikes is when people start chipping/souping up their £5k plus ebike, when if they wanted speed a powerful motorbike could be had for far less than their slow, illegal motorbike.
Caveat - of course I think they should be treated more like a bike as they're clearly much more like a bike to ride, as you'll see if you watch any MTB derived ebike video vs the FIM ebike races which were incredibly cringey to watch!
, I imagine they’re considered as something weird under the law, but basically they’re a slow low powered car.
No, a car is a high-powered mobility scooter 🙄. No matter how many loopholes and weird laws you can point to, the fact is that people use cars in place of walking, cycling or running. Cars are mobility ‘scooters‘ and have been since the Benz Patent Motorwagen. I don’t care how mobility scooter-drivers defend their use of them, just don’t call it something it is not. A ‘car’ is a mobility aid. With wheels and a motor. ie a mobility scooter. It is powered solely by a motor and not at all by a human. Otherwise it would be something else. It doesn’t bother me what people call it as long as they aren’t kidding themselves or others. Doesn’t matter what the law says, it doesn’t change the fact of the matter. Anything with more than two wheels and motor-driven is a mobility scooter by definition. Not legal definition, ACTUAL definition.
the fact is that people use cars in place of walking, cycling or running.
Sure, but "You wanna go check out my expensive German car" works as a pick-up line. "You wanna go check out my mobility scooter" doesn't (with any lady I'm interested in, anyway).
Or when you’re chatting to a rider on the trail, I dont need to hear why your day is going so much better than mine because you’re on an ebike.
As an ebike rider I regularly forget to do this, must put more effort into appearing superior.....or maybe I don't do it cos I don't give a shit and no one else does, I can't believe anyone else does it either tbh
Sure, but “You wanna go check out my expensive German car” works as a pick-up line.
Sure, but “You wanna go check out my expensive German car” works as a pick-up line.
You've got my attention, hunk. When can we meet up?
Whats needed are ebike specific trails.
So I dont have to get stuck behind those still on their retro pedalbikes s l o w ly riding uphill.
Like a rolling roadblock they are, looking all sweaty & angry.
Whats needed are ebike specific trails.
So I dont have to get stuck behind those still on their retro pedalbikes s l o w ly riding uphill.
Like a rolling roadblock they are, looking all sweaty & angry.
🤣
Reminds me of the time I took the CX bike to Swinley.
Red faced e-bike rider / Heart attack waiting to happen / e-bike riding gent: "We've been stuck behind you for 20 minutes".
Now bear in mind that;
1) Flat out, Swinley is only a bit over an hour a lap even on a human powered bike.
2) There are about 40 sections, with fire road between each, there is nowhere that's 20 minutes between overtaking opportunities.
3) I'd only slowed down to force him to buzz my tyre as I'd caught up with a family with kids spinning up the last little single track climb on the red back to tank traps
I can only assume that this poor bloke had been getting within catching distance on the climbs before almost having a heart attack trying to catch up on the flat bits! Slowly getting more and more worked up by the perceived insult that my legs and a beaten up SSCX with V-brakes were outgunning his £5k Specialized e-enduro thingumabob.!
^^^ a good reason to avoid trail centres... 🙂
Reminds me of the time I took the CX bike to Swinley.
Wow that sounds all of the awsumz. 🤣
Wow that sounds all of the awsumz. 🤣
It's the shizzle. Slower than the mountainbike overall, with immediate face melting death if the front end were to slide on a berm!
Not sure I'd be able to stay awake with all that excitement. 🥱
I think at some point there’ll be a relook at e-mtb’s and thier use on bridleways and shared off road paths.
I agree - and I think they'll probably also take a look at mountain bikes too, which isn't a good thing.
They are (very low powered) motorbikes.
Yep. Unlike @Kerley's point that it's just me - a lot of people can see: Bike + Motor = Motorbike (no matter how shit and underpowered the motor is).
a good reason to avoid trail centres…
They aren't all like that, neither is Swinley for me. Maybe if you didn't avoid them you'd apprecaite that? 🙂
Back on topic.. does it matter how a bike's power is generated? If a lazy rider + ebike is worth 350W, then what is the difference between that and a fit rider generating 350W? Nothing that I can see.
Compare that to an actual motorbike with its multiple kW then there's a very obvious difference. So eBikes are clearly not in the same category.
Back on topic.. does it matter how a bike’s power is generated?
clearly yes - or there wouldn't be a bazillion threads on this very subject.
🙂
Maybe a properly fit National level rider who uses a power meter can clarify but I'd imagine that most 'average' riders can properly sustain 350W on a climb for only 5 minutes or so....to sustain 350W on a decent climb for 30-45mins would surely be a tiny percentage of riders, probably at or near national level - while 400W sustained for an hour is Bradley Wiggins level surely (my numbers may be well off). So quite a big difference anyway...ebikes convert cold hard cash into superhuman performance which is maybe the underlying thing getting peoples goats up...now where's that jiffy bag.
For going up a hill yes but for a 100 mile ride with some uphills in it then 10s of thousands of road cyclists would be faster than a person on an bike that tops out at 15.5mph
Yep. Unlike @ Kerley’s point that it’s just me – a lot of people can see: Bike + Motor = Motorbike (no matter how shit and underpowered the motor is).
yes, when a lot of people = 2
Go out an show people an ebike and a motorbike and ask what each of them is. 99% of people will not say the ebike is a motorbike.