[Closed] Drafting

isn't it just poor skills that usually just needs a grumpy old git with a loud voice to admonish the idiots?

I thought you were supposed to go as long as you fancied on the front and then peel off around the outside, exposing the second person to the wind and keeping the same group speed.. would that not be more sensible?

Note I have never been on group road rides 🙂

hah ! found it:

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/quiz-question-2-for-newbie-roadies ]apparently, ...[/url]

We always do it the other way. People on the front move over and drift to the back. The idea of the people right behind having to overtake the people in front just seems silly for lots of reasons.

As you drift to the back, you are obviously going slower then everyone else, so may need to put in a few pedals to get back up to speed when joining the back.

edit: what molgrips said.

Although, right after someone else has just put in a hard effort and you're still fresh - that's the best time to attack, surely?

Leaving a gap - ime/o - is something to do with judging how fast to come past/distance as its not an easy thing to get to grips with when learning.

At least they come through and take a turn, unlike the club from up north who sat on mine and a friends wheel for a huge chunk of a recent sportive and didn't take a turn up front. 😡

Depends on the circumstances, if you're riding through-and-off you should peel off to the right and drop back. If you're attacking or bridging a gap, an arm-flick is perfectly acceptable code for "come on, your turn"...

But yes, nothing pisses me off more than the smart-arse that's been sandbagging for several miles coming through and dropping the group.

It's usually inexperience. I also hate knobs that keep sitting up or getting out of the saddle when they're on the front... Keep it smooth you retard!!!

Road riding has so many reasons for people to be grumpy.. it's wonderful isn't it 🙂

I thought this was going to be about Autocad.

We always do it the other way. People on the front move over and drift to the back. The idea of the people right behind having to overtake the people in front just seems silly for lots of reasons

That sort of happens naturally anyway with the way we've always done it. As soon as the leading rider sees you edge out a smooth rotation starts to work.
I'm not keen on people easing off the front, especialy on the flat with a tailwind and the groups doing over thirty.
If I'm taking up the pace, I go past steadilly that way I can judge exactly the speed I need to be doing to ensure it's a smooth as can be i.e no one needs to ease off or speed up.

Through, Across, Ease

How difficult can it be? 8)

Is through and off not more likely to end up in the speed dropping as people will ease up before the go off. Whereas speeding up to get to the front is only going to increase pace or keep it constant. That's my thought on it anyway.

But to answer the OP - do the people who are doing it know that they are doing wrong?

^^^this

If this is a new club, surely it's just a case of agreeing/pointing out. Same as you would decide which side to peel off to, which way the ride is going etc.

I'm normally one of the shouty people in a race and could write loads on this subject. Simplest way to ensure smooth group riding is to get the newbies down to a velodrome.

sounds like bad skills to me.

No need for elbow flicks on any club training run - no matter how hard.

Elbow flicks reserved for races (2 up TT's , track , RR's) and its a positive thing letting the other rider know its their turn , not a case of trying to ge a rider to do his bit (have a voice for doing that )

Is it a chain gang?? If so you should be moving up and across in a fluid motion.

If a rider moves up and moves across at such a speed that the rider he is moving across onto has to accelerate then that is simply bad riding.

Not a bad thing and ususally down to inexperience.

We have a local chain gang and also practice through and off through winter on long runs (i.e. -last 30 miles back through and off)

Been in so many RR breaks where the riders cant ride through and off but cant be too hard on them as they may not have the above or practice chain gang riding that often.

Years ago when I first started going on chain gang I was told what I was doing wrong by established riders and took it on board. Unfortunately these days you cant tell anybody anything anymore without them taking offence.

This is how a chain gang works - the clue is in the name 🙂

http://www.gregarios.co.uk/cycling-clubs/chain-gang-through-and-off.html

The chainy diagram is flawed. Rider is moving over too early forcing the inside rider to slow to allow him to move across and it also leaves the outside rider behind in the wind too early.

Whilst it may seem pedantic, that is one of the major problem with a chainy.

Obviously they will get the idea from the link though,

Just re-read the op's question, and relates more to a Paceline rather than a Chain Gang. Is this any help;

http://www.gregarios.co.uk/cycling-clubs/paceline-training.html

Is it a chain gang?? If so you should be moving up and across in a fluid motion.

Yes, and exactly.
I don't really want to bring the subject up, but teach them by example. The good thing is we get it right later in our rides, but by then the constant stretching of the group blows some of the weaker riders out.

That link above is basically it except that, traditionally, the line goes the other way in the UK, the slower line is on the right. Depends on wind direction though, I've done both ways before.

Main thing is to let them know in advance - this is what we expect of you, life is made easier for everyone blah blah. It's the commonest mistake by newbies who think that to get through, they have to sprint. Equally, some people peel off and don't slow down. The change of pace is almost imperceptible, 1mph difference at most between the lines.

The concertina effect of a bad chainy just wears people out as they are constantly accelerating and braking, which goes against everything its supposed to be.

To me you should be running the same cadence in both lines only 'pushing the pedals' going up the line and 'glasscranking' going down the line.

Should be v smooth and never should you need to touch brakes.

The slow/ineperienced riders will definitely struggle if it concertina's.

Crazy legs , I have NEVER done a chain gang that goes the other way when training on main roads as its EXTREMELY dangerous.

Races, you ride depending on the wind but NEVER have a slow lane on the outside when traffic is concerned.

Traffic needs to see the front rider, it cant then suddenly have someone swing to the outside from the kerb and potentially into their path.

Done chainys in Bolton, Pimbo, Newcastle and various area's down south and have simply never seen it done that way.

MW - totally agree. Much safer for the recovery line/rider dropping back on the inside next to kerb.

Margin: just depends what you've been taught I guess. As I say I've done it both ways but on the continent they always seem to run them fast line on the kerb side, slow line on the traffic side (at least, the continental clubs/riders that I've been with). My London based club almost always ran changes clockwise (through on the inside, swing out). Maybe it's cos that's the way it's done on the track and that's where they used to practise most so it was just natural, I don't know.

It actually doesn't make that much difference, the two lines have a very similar speed - there's always going to be a rider swinging out into the traffic side whether it's at the front or back of the line.

OK, so my limited involvement in this:

The trad way for pacelines to share the work is for the front two riders to do a turn. the outside rider eases and moves out, leaving the next two riders to bring the group through. The original front two float to the back. This works well for general club runs, where the length of time spent on the front can vary.

My preferred way - for training rides at least - is effectively a very slow chaingang. Slow in the sense of the changeover. So, the group agrees at the outset that you'll spend 10 minutes on the front. After 5 minutes, the outside rider moves across and the rider behind him moves up. Then after 5 minutes do the same, etc. Everyone does 10 mins on the front (5 on the outside, 5 on the inside).

In both cases, the key is maintaining a constant working pace/effort, of course. The former allows stronger riders to take longer turns, the latter expects weaker riders to dig in a bit more during their turn. I prefer the latter for training effect.

CL - sorry but simply NEVER done a chainy in UK that does it the way you say (your London club was an exception). Get out to Pimbo (virtually closed roads) or Bickerstaffe with the E12 chainy and they are always outside to in and seamlessly smooth.

As for rider swinging out to traffic at the back - he can be seen by the cars as opposed to the front where they cant. it makes a huge difference.

There's a reason they do it the opposite way on the track (slower riders up the track to slow them. cant peel off and go under riders and speed up) - but you know that anyway.

Oh, and other than the track, I've only done changangs with the slow line on the inside/kerbside.

And as for oldgit's question - the key is a little coaching really. One of the older riders in my club (still 2nd Cat at 50 - previous holder of national team BBAR) is an expert coach, though he doesn't see what he does as that. Little hints and tips dropped in here and there in a friendly way and everyone's riding smooth as.

my 1st race back in April i ended up in a group of 5 about 4 mins from the main group. We all took turns on the front by the front rider pulling to the right and slowing slightly while everyone came forward until the then front rider moving to the back.

This meant a break of 4 people and felt comfortable.

On sunday i was quite surprised when again i ended up in a group of 5 about 2 mins down but the pace was much more ferocious. In this group the front rider did his turn for what was 4/5 secs. It was like thru and off but 1 line. It's hard to describe but the person behind me came outside of me and in front, i then joined his wheel as he moved past the front guy and over and then i go past him to the front. I was literally on the front for 2/3 secs.. we all took turns and in 10 secs i was back on the front again

I'm told by my clubs mates they were trying to close the gap whereas the race i did in April they knew they weren't going to close

ourmaninthenorth - Member
Oh, and other than the track, I've only done changangs with the slow line on the inside/kerbside.

And as for oldgit's question - the key is a little coaching really. Little hints and tips dropped in here and there in a friendly way and everyone's riding smooth as.

+1

trick is to let the newbies know what they are doing wrong without putting them off.

I used to get shouted at but accepted it as I was being 'told' by the local hero's and wanted to do well. A more sofftly softly approach seems to be required these days (as with everything in this nanny state

A more sofftly softly approach seems to be required these days (as with everything in this nanny state

Hardly. Just his style. Being shouted at to hold a wheel is no good if the reason hasn't been explained. I prefer someone just dropping a hint as they go through say "when you go through try X".

trick is to let the newbies know what they are doing wrong without putting them off.

I used to get shouted at but accepted it as I was being 'told' by the local hero's and wanted to do well. A more sofftly softly approach seems to be required these days (as with everything in this nanny state

+1
Regardless of the "debate" ( 😉 ) about direction of changes, the key is just to make sure that everyone is aware and there's some great advice on here. Oldgit, they'll soon pick it up and to be honest I think you're to be commended on your new club start up however frustrating certain aspects of it may be at times to you!

Trickydisco

your mate was right - will depend on the objective.

Also - not much benefit to doing a 'chain' with less than 6 or 7 riders.

Also if lots of bends or tricky course and 5 or 6 of you then better to be in a line with you sheltering and doing 1 turn every 6.

Bet the ferocious pace of the recent 5 man break was more enjoyable than simply tapping through with no real goal.

Nothing like being in a break in RR and everyione working

Oldgit, they'll soon pick it up and to be honest I think you're to be commended on your new club start up however frustrating certain aspects of it may be at times to you!

This^^^^

Lots of people talk about grass roots sport. Very few people do anything about it. Nice one oldgit.

If you get an attractive jersey design, can I join second claim? 🙂

Bet the ferocious pace of the recent 5 man break was more enjoyable than simopky tapping through with no real goal.

Nothing like being in a break in RR and everyone working

Yea.. i did enjoy it for 4 laps.. Looking down at my speedo and seeing 25/26mph into wind was a bit crazy

unfortunately they dropped me on the climb and i couldn't stay with them. Hardest race so far. very very tough

If I'm taking up the pace, I go past steadilly that way I can judge exactly the speed I need to be doing to ensure it's a smooth as can be i.e no one needs to ease off or speed up

But if the lead rider peels off then the person behind just needs to keep the exact same pace, just pedal a bit harder.. seems simple to me.

Then again reading the above has made it clear that I know nothing 🙂

Tricky - sounds good.

do less work next time and try and save something. will have done you 'loads' of good, even if you couldnt stay and bridging a gap is often much much harder than getting in the original break (which can be hard in itself).

good luck

drafting/chain gang in a race is a world apart to doing it on a club run.. You ride out of your skin knowing your life depends on staying with them..

Aaw cheers. The greatest frustration for me is seeing the few guys that struggle to keep in touch because of the yo-yo'ing, when I know they'd survive all day if we could keep it together.

If you get an attractive jersey design, can I join second claim

It's a blatant rip off of the Belgians jersey (of whoom I'm a member)only Liquigas green/white/black

OG - The BC coaches have been teaching this recently at the junior Team MK sessions and they have taught the ‘front rider peels off and joins the back’ method.

It's a blatant rip off of the Belgians jersey (of whoom I'm a member)only Liquigas green/white/black

They won't miss you lot out on the road..!

I have nothing really to add, as it's all been said.

But.. I struggle to take seriously anything MW says because of his ridiculous over use of the word "chainy", which just makes you sound like a goon! xx

Our chaingang always changes direction (clockwise or anti) depending on the wind direction. The faster line should be getting sheltered by the slower line in cross winds. I don't see how it makes any difference to on coming traffic as all they see is two lines of riders. No one should be swinging out into the traffic, it's just two lines of smoothly switching riders.

ok, i've never ridden a road bike let alone done a ride on ze road with a load of people.

so instead of forming an opinion on it i figured i'd ask some questions as to understand it better:

why do people take turns at the front?
why dont people talk to each other instead of hand/arm signals?

i'd be happy chilling in the middle chatting to friends 😀

Our local ride adjusts so the that the fast line is getting sheltered by the slow line. It is much harder work if you have to go through on the windy side.

ac282, that is ridiculous! it means you never get a rest as the slow line still has the wind