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I find it pointless on FS bikes. The real advantage I find is on the rigid, where it takes the sting out of things and it grips nicely.
On a FS the suspension is doing the exact same job as the tyres on the B+.
I don't trust any of the B+ tyres I've used for more serious riding either. The sidewalls are just too thin.
I've a set of Plus wheels for the Solaris which currently has a set of rigid carbon forks on and they definitely make a difference. I rode a comparison loop with keeping everything from the clothes I wore to the amount of rest beforehand to the amount of water I carried as constant as I could and the Plus wheels were about 7% faster overall, some Strava segments were all but identical, maybe +/- five seconds for a two minute segment, some were a bit slower but quite a few were significantly faster.
The wheels/tyres [b]are[/b] heavy but then they were cheap (Alpkit Rumpus 45mm rims). In fact they are only 300g lighter for the set than the wheels on my fat bike so any perceived saving in that department is minimal if not illusory.
Like most things they don't fit every situation but they do have their place.
so bland it's trying to blend into the background??
Braaaap
I've been running 2.8s on a Sonder Transmitter with a 120mm fork up front for five or six months now and they work pretty well up to the point where you hit a rock and pinch puncture the rear again. Stuff that's worth bearing in mind is that there's a narrow window of functional tyre pressure where they give great cushioning and grip without feeling squelchy or bouncy. It's a matter of a psi or so either side.
Current tyre choice is pretty dire. Too light, too thin, too fragile. The WTB Tough casing tyres are getting good feedback from two very good riders I know who've been using them. I've got a Rekon+ on the rear now, but it's not notably more robust feeling than a TB or a RR to be honest, though I have more trust in EXO than Schwalbe's SS thing.
I don't think the NN / RR combo is anywhere near a Minion/Ardent set-up. The rubber compounds are still horrible imho. That's Schwalbe for you.
Do you think maybe you're simply too good for the tyre set-up and size?
Have you read this and tried any of the tyres he used:
BIKERADAR.COM I was sceptical about plus bikes until I read that article - now I'm content knowing that my normal bikes are fast enough as a non-competitive racer at best! 😉
I'm sort of surprised at all the comments on tyres. I started with FatBnimbles front and rear - that was a disaster. They may be light but in any slop at all there's just no grip. With a NN 3.0 on the front it's all good. I'm happy letting the back end wander a bit if the bike is generally going where I point it. I'll likely try something else on the rear this winter. Might wait to see what pops up on the classifieds.
I find it offers a good compromise between 29er and fat. Im more comfortable on b+ than my old rigid 29er but a fair chunk faster than on my fatty. Now speed isn't an issue for me I go as slow as I like but it is easier to pedal up hill on the b+ than it was on the fatty. Unfortunately it's also slower going down. It's swings and roundabouts. It's a bike I like bikes
I don't think it can be me being too good really. Nice as it would be to think so 😆 I'm pretty good, I'm not awesome.
BadlyWiredDog - MemberI don't think the NN / RR combo is anywhere near a Minion/Ardent set-up. The rubber compounds are still horrible imho.
The grip isn't but the rest of the performance is, which is why I'm making that comparison- tyre performance isn't just about grip, or we'd all be using supertackies, you need to take into account the all round usability of them and that puts them right in the same envelope as a minion/ardent.
Baically the closest performance comparison I can make is bad enduro/trailbike tyres not XC tyres. On a slippery descent, sure, they feel like XC tyres but across the whole day they're not.
Right. **** it, it's not for me is it? Essentially all of my posts say the same thing, regardless of good or bad I'm just not liking how it works and feels. Changing tyres or rim won't change the basic ride character of the bigger tyre, and it's not giving me the one thing I really wanted, it's the wrong compromise.
Rode on a demo ride B+ a few months back and first try I was looking for negatives and couldn't find any... Then went back to a normal 27.5 bike and found that great. Went back to the same B+ and all of a sudden it wasn't quite the same. It felt like it wanted to understeer everywhere and just felt really, really vague in comparison. That was with 3.0 Maxxis Chronicles. Loads of grip don't get me wrong but the whole feel I look for wasn't there. Am about to order some 2.6 Nobby Nics as an experiment to see how I get on with semi, semi fat. Hopefully they fit in my T130!
I'm not sure if it's a gnar/fast thing. A couple of friends love their tyres soft and go fast and and steep. It's a control thing and the bike doing what you want it to do, when you want it to. Coming from a bmx background with rock hard tyres and no suspension probably influences my preference for firm suspension and tyres. I like being in control of the bike at all times. I don't get that with softer suspension and it's much worse combined with soft tyres. A soggy bike feels like a vague, drunken bike and that doesn't give me any confidence.
Do people really buy stuff to go faster/improve strava times?
7% faster...you should tell the world class xc guys 😛
@cynic-al No, I was using Strava as a means to check if there was any difference, empirical data is better than "They feel really fast" or whatever. It was only one ride on each set of wheels so really I'd need to do quite a few more rides on that same loop to get a better comparison.
I also wore a HRM and those values were comparable (average for a segment was +/- 2bpm or so, maximum during a segment was also very similar) so I wasn't putting more effort in just to prove a point. I'd also ridden with the wheels for a few weeks before doing the loop to try and avoid the new gear halo effect.
Edit: [i]I was on my own for both rides as well so no drafting.
[/i]
Ultimately it was one set of figures from one rider on one loop of about 25Km, someone else might find the opposite for their riding. I tried the Peak200 ITT earlier this year using them and after 180Km they felt hard work but I don't know whether I'd have been better with the 29er wheels as there were other factors involved.
I don't think I'd use them as my main wheelset but they are useful to be able to swap in should the occasion require.
Fair enough, you've made a good effort to be scientific and caveated it too
*approves*
Do people really buy stuff to go faster
surely the whole bike industry is based around this premise?
Fair enough, you've made a good effort to be scientific and caveated it too*approves*
Oooh! Ta 😆
jam bo, surely owning a bike is at least partially (if not mostly) based around having fun, and most people don't need to go KOM speeds to have fun.
I regularly have people ask if I compete, but I've no interest in that, I 100% ride for the enjoyment of it.
I think (unsurprisingly) that tyres are the key.
I stuck a set of B+ wheels with WTB Trailblazer tyres on my Solaris last year. This was just at the start of a prolonged dry spell and initially I thought they were great. A touch more grip, a touch more comfort and a slightly lower BB. Nothing dramatic, but I thought it made the Solaris a better trail bike. Right up to the point where it rained and the TBs became lethal.
I then switched to Nobby Nics for the winter, but found that setup pretty pointless. It was slower everywhere (up and down) than it was with the same tyres in 29er format. No more grip as far as I could tell and any improvements in comfort or float were so small as to hardly be worth the effort. So, I gave up and went full fat! But I sold the B+ wheels and tyres to metalheart who enjoyed them so much he ordered a "proper" plus bike. Which just goes to show that we're all different I guess.
I do wonder whether those who claim a plus bike offers some of the advantages of a fat bike without the downsides ever tried a fatty with 4.8" JJ tyres.
I bet they're the nuts in California, against Cumbrian sludge and slate however....
I do wonder whether those who claim a plus bike offers some of the advantages of a fat bike without the downsides ever tried a fatty with 4.8" JJ tyres.
I've got 4" Husker Du's on mine. I've absolutely nothing to compare them against as it's my first fat bike. From what I've read, the HDs are 3 season tyres so might not be the best in snow/slutch/mud. As I noted above: the Alpkit Rumpus wheels (with Bridger on the front and TB on the rear) are only slightly lighter than the fat wheelset.
Personally, I only really care about speed when I'm racing, faster isn't necessarily more fun for normal riding imo. [i]Feeling[/i] fast, sure, but feeling fast on a rigid bike or fatbike happens at a different speed to an enduro bike or downhill bike.
roverpig - MemberI do wonder whether those who claim a plus bike offers some of the advantages of a fat bike without the downsides ever tried a fatty with 4.8" JJ tyres.
TBH this is probably a big part of it, with me- getting a wee sniff of big tyre feel isn't making me feel "this is good", it's making me feel "I know this feeling but there's not enough of it"- if I was only used to narrow tyres I imagine it'd feel more interesting, if you're used to water then skimmed milk is probably good, but I'm used to full fat so it just tastes of disappointment 😆
(that perfect metaphor happened completely unplanned, usually I like a really strained metaphor so I'm not sure how that happened)
But there's plenty of folks who've tried them all and still like the plus compromise, Scotroutes frinstance in this thread...
Northwind - Memberif I was only used to narrow tyres I imagine it'd feel more interesting, if you're used to water then skimmed milk is probably good, but I'm used to full fat so it just tastes of disappointment
It's was semi skimmed that was in my coffee. It was coffee that was in my mouth.
Now it's on my keyboard.
Thanks for that 😉
I've been happy with the grip and rolling characteristics of my 2.8 nobby nics, but a combination putting holes in the rear tyre every time it gets a bit rowdy, tight clearances with 2.8 tyres and dartmoor about to turn into a bog pushed me back towards 29.
Some of the newer 2.6 tyres from maxxis might tempt me back next year but until then, does anyone want to buy a set of alpkit rumpus wheels + 2.8 NN's. done about 600 miles, some marks on the freehub, set up tubeless, front tyre in good condition, back tyre comes with 6 free tubeless plugs.
I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't like soft tyres for cornering etc. I thought I must have it wrong based on what the industry was saying, but phew I'm not alone.
jam bo - Member
Do people really buy stuff to go faster
surely the whole bike industry is based around this premise?
Of course, but some folk aren't interested in being its servant.
4.8 tyres? No thanks, I tried 4" and it was too much, I can ride the beach, or most if it on 3", and it doesn't feel like a barge.
4.8 tyres? No thanks, I tried 4" and it was too much, I can ride the beach, or most if it on 3", and it doesn't feel like a barge.
That was my point though. There is such a big difference between the feel of different tyres (especially with plus/fat wheels) that it's hard to talk about size on its own. A Surly ICT with a Bud/Lou combo is indeed a barge. A fun barge, but a barge none the less. The same bike with Jumbo Jims on feels totally different though. Pump those up from their usual 6psi to 12psi and it's a whole other ball game again.
I get that, but are you suggesting 4.8" JJs are closer to 3" tyres than 4"?
Well I guess they might be closer to some 3" tyres than some 4" tyres, but my point really was just that there is as much difference between different tyres of the same size as there is between different sizes.
I read it as there are more to a tyres riding characteristics than just the width it is available in.
/Mid fat /plus size/B + whatever it's called this week is
Rearrange this popular phrase 😆
Money a easy parted and fool his are
Late to the party but here's my experience!
Stanton Sherpa with 140mm Pikes and WTB Scraper i45's. Originally with WTB Trailblazers 2.8s. Upped the front to a Trail Boss 3.0. Rode great at 20psi but grip was rubbish in the loose and they bounced a bit. Anything lower and they felt like they were coming off the rim. Sidewalls too weak. Didn't take them anywhere rocky as was scared they'd tear!
Along come MAXXIS with their Rekon EXO's and we're flying with 12psi front and 15 in the back. Awesome grip, still fast, great fun! Orange Segment is left the garage unless I'm expecting BIG stuff!!!
Cheers,
Dave.
I've done a LOT of tyre testing on B+ this year with the new MAX bikes coming out (granted only on WTB, but they're my supplier, so, y'know).
Currently I'm completely sold on Plus for my hardtail. I love 2.8s on my Solaris and can find very little in the way of drawbacks. It's fun and grippy and comfy and not a deal heavier than the setup I'd normally ride. I also have timed testing data on everything from rocky to smooth singletrack trails which shows they're as fast or faster than 29er wheels on the Solaris which helps me get over myself when the 'feel' slow.
It gets a little more complicated on FS. As someone mentioned the MAX bikes only go up to 2.8" on the rear anyway so that's what I have been working on, but in my experience the higher grip you have on FS and therefore the higher cornering loads you can generate - particularly on anything even mildly supportive/bermed - presents Plus setups with difficulty with tyre roll and feeling like the tyre is coming off if you're running low enough pressures to get the advantages on bumpy/rooty sections. I couldn't find a sweet spot where I could leave tyre pressures alone for most situations, but found they worked brilliantly as low as 10 front/12 rear on off camber roots and tech sections, but needed as much as 18 to stop tyre roll on high energy bermed trails (I'm 85 kg btw, so if you're lighter you might get away with less). So, on FS I think you have to take Plus tyres as something else you tune, like suspension, and perhaps have to be a little location specific about it. One thing I haven't managed to test yet is how the stiffer Tough casing works out for the rear as we have only just got these in. My guess - based on running Tough 29er rear on my RocketMAX - is that it will help.
This is all on 35mm internal rims, which was the decision we made based on the balance of weight vs performance. You do get more support from wider rims, but there's also a big weight penalty. The WTB i35 rims weigh around 600grms, which is already over 120grms more than the KOM i25 29er rims we use on the equivalent 29er wheels. The Scrapers were over 700 grams each! This had a significant effect on the feel of the bike. Of the WTB range, the Ranger 2.8 Light weighs 800 grms and the Tough version we just got in 1050. This is similar the 29 x 2.3s I usually run so the big differentiator in wheel weight becomes the rims and over 200 grms per wheel is a serious increase in weight. Unless you go carbon there's still a line to walked in terms of width/support/weight I feel. WTB showed the Scraper i40 at Eurobike which might hit the sweet spot on that compromise a little better. We'll see.
This opinion might also be related to using the i35 rims, but I prefer 2.8s myself. They are less pressure sensitive whilst still having plenty of float and being 10% smaller than the 3.0" tyres they're 10% lighter too which seems to put 2.8s into the 'on the heavy side' category rather than the 'how heavy?!' of some 3.0. See the Bridger for example. We use 3.0 front with the Trail Boss which is a great tyre, but I am CONSTANTLY nagging Mike at WTB to make 2.8 Trail Boss. These front and rear would be MINT. IMHO. YMMV.
Haven't tried it but it is clearly not a case of snake oil or Coolaid drinking.
I spent 6 months on 1.9 tyres then changed to 2.4 and the 2.4 were better in more ways than they were worse. The only time they were worse was on road or very compact fire roads.
Going from 2.4 to 2.8/3.0 is going to be the same, there will be pros and cons - just all depends if they weigh in your favour.
Interesting comments Cy. I wish I had your resources to test out rim/tyre combos! I'm more than happy to offer my 'real world' testing skills for you.... 😉
I have to admit, 3" tyres and scrapers ain't exactly light. Will probably try 2.8" once the tougher tyres percolate through to the unwashed masses... And please keep up your nagging of Mike 😀
Very interesting thread.
I have a plan to get a 27.5+ front wheel made up for my cannondale trigger. It has a lefty with bags of clearance so I don't need a new fork (or bike) to experience some plus-ness.
I thought it was a way to slacken my front end while adding more grip. At the moment I run a 2.4" Mary on the front and a lesser grip tyre on the back - a set up I love around the Peak - I was hoping for more of the same.
This thread gives me lots to think about re my assumptions. Tyre choice being a big one, I'd grab a 2.8 Mary if it were available. A lot of puncture talk too - presumably more on rears of HTs?
A lot of puncture talk too - presumably more on rears of HTs?
Yep. But I've seen one blow on the front too. At speed. On the Hagg Farm descent. I think there's some going back to first principles stuff here.
1. B+ ime is very pressure sensitive. There's a window of around 2psi between too soft and too hard and it varies a little with tyre, terrain and riding style. Too hard and they just ping off stuff, too soft and they feel drunk.
2. B+ tyres blow through their 'travel' really fast when run at Goldilocks, 'just right' pressures, presumably because they're like a high volume shock at low pressure - whoomph... Rims hit rock, tyre pinches. The answer to this is probably tougher sidewalls - WTB Tough seem to be working for people who've used them - and/or maybe something like Pro Core... both are heavier than the current crop of lightweight, skinny-walled tyres but at least you won't spend hours levering pinch-flatted rubber off your expensive dinged rims.
3. B+ tyres vary like any other tyre. Trailblazers, for example, are pretty dire. Nobby Nics still have nasty rubber compounds. Fast tyres are still fast, grippy tyres still drag a little at the back. Grippy front, fast rear still works.
4. Everyone's different. A lightweight whippet on the South Downs could have a completely different experience of the same tyre/wheel format as a 20-stone thug, but the binary, black and white screen settings of STW don't make much allowance for this.
5. Don't even think about putting a WTB Trailblazer on the front of anything [in this case point 4 above does not apply]
Really interesting thread with some good honest contributions.
Have been following with interest as my next bike will either be a short travel 29in-only XC/trail bike or something that can take 29 or plus wheels.
How many of you plussers would just not bother if you had the chance to go back and do it again?
PS. If the WTB Tough carcass is the same as on the 29er Trail Boss then it could indeed be the answer to your prayers. Fantastically tough tyre!
+1Really interesting thread with some good honest contributions.
@cha****ng - I don't think I'd use B+ wheels as my only wheelset but having the option to swap out my regular 29er wheels is nice to have. For steady away bikepacking rides they are ideal, especially on a rigid bike, they take just enough sting out of mildly technical ground. I can't see the point in B+ on a FS bike or if you only/mainly rode trail centres.
@badlywireddog - I was told (quite forcibly) before getting B+ wheels to avoid Trailblazers on the front. Even on 45mm rims they are a weird profile being significantly wider halfway down the sidewall than at the tread.
Love my B+ norco torrent, it took a week or so setting it up properly and getting the tyre pressures right but its a fantastic bike, its used for trail riding, bikepacking, beach riding and some moderate DH but i just need to suss out how to stop over jumping everything on it now 😆
no tyre or puncture issues as yet and its been rode a fair bit, it sounds like no one ever gets puncture issues on anything except B+ 🙄 😆
Yep. But I've seen one blow on the front too. At speed. On the Hagg Farm descent. I think there's some going back to first principles stuff here.1. B+ ime is very pressure sensitive. There's a window of around 2psi between too soft and too hard and it varies a little with tyre, terrain and riding style. Too hard and they just ping off stuff, too soft and they feel drunk.
2. B+ tyres blow through their 'travel' really fast when run at Goldilocks, 'just right' pressures, presumably because they're like a high volume shock at low pressure - whoomph... Rims hit rock, tyre pinches. The answer to this is probably tougher sidewalls - WTB Tough seem to be working for people who've used them - and/or maybe something like Pro Core... both are heavier than the current crop of lightweight, skinny-walled tyres but at least you won't spend hours levering pinch-flatted rubber off your expensive dinged rims.
3. B+ tyres vary like any other tyre. Trailblazers, for example, are pretty dire. Nobby Nics still have nasty rubber compounds. Fast tyres are still fast, grippy tyres still drag a little at the back. Grippy front, fast rear still works.
4. Everyone's different. A lightweight whippet on the South Downs could have a completely different experience of the same tyre/wheel format as a 20-stone thug, but the binary, black and white screen settings of STW don't make much allowance for this.
5. Don't even think about putting a WTB Trailblazer on the front of anything [in this case point 4 above does not apply]
This. I am looking at replacing Trailblazers as I write. I've also bought a new pressure gauge as that window really is tiny.
@ Cha****ng, I dunno if I would do it again to be honest. They're really good in the right conditions, slightly better than the 29er wheels in pretty much most conditions other than proper slop.
However, the 650B Capra with a MM up front and trail boss at the back is the boy for me, and If I only had one FSer, it would be he, not the 29er or B+.
I'm gonna give the 29er wheels a go again, as it's coming into the grimey season, and I have a shorty on there.
As my thread of the same day suggests - I am plus curious, and want a future bike to have middling width rims, with ability to go full plus or run widish normal tyres - depending on me getting on with various tyres, seasons etc.
Finding a HT bike around £1k that is that is proving tough - its either full plus/boost, or more normal HT and squeeze in bigger tyres - and none come with jack-of-all-master-of-none 30/35mm rims.
I would like 2x, slackish and lowish geometry, comfort and lightish weight.
Sonder Transmitter, Marin Pine Mountain or Nail Trail, Pinnacle Iroko, Giant Fathom, possible Orange Clockwork 120 are on 'the list'...
Nothing from Genesis Matt?
I was still thinking about 2.8, tyre roll etc, it happens that I have a 2.8 Ron as well so I stuck that on last night and tbh, it's what I expected- it works more like a thin tyre, so it has less "plusness" and float and less drawbacks, corners better etc.
So possibly a better compromise for everyday riding if you have to have plus, or you find the small extra float is worthwhile, but for me has less of the differentiation that drew me to it. In performance terms 2.8 is working better than 3.0 for me but only because it's more like a normal tyre. So at some point if you're thinking this way you have to go, why not just use a normal tyre and that's where I am now. So, back on the 29er minions.
(I'm sure a heavy duty sidewall plus tyre with sticky rubber and big tread could be awesome, allowing low pressures and huge grip and that, but it'd probably also weigh 1200g and roll like a brick)
It's got me thinking again about wider "normal" tyres though which seems to be a coming thing... I like the 2.5 minion and I always used to use big tyres (true 2.35s or dishonest 2.5s that measure 2.35, and a 2.7 highroller on the dh bike) so it's kind of full circle. So it's been a good experiment anyway and it's given me some other ideas to try.
But Plus isn't what I hoped it was basically. Not to say it's bad, but it's not doing what I wanted it to do.
So cheers for all the help (and I hand the thread over to whoever wants it 😉
Nothing from Genesis Matt?
Not at £1k - other than having cheap kit and weighs 32lbs...