[Closed] 4 cyclists killed in 8 day in London

Are bicycles the only vehicle where you can be let out onto the road with zero training?

Where has this got us cycling has been on the decrease for the last 70 years

Re deaf people. FFS. I'm sure deaf people rely on other senses to keep up good observations when cycling.

yep, the same ones available to hearing people.

my point is that just because you have earphones in it does not make you immediately unaware of your surroundings, nor does it actually mean you can't hear.

What you're actually grumpy about is people not paying attention, there is a difference, but too often people jump to the 'earphones in, therefore not listening' conclusion.

and, yes I have personal experience of this as a person wwith only partial hearing.

Regardless of any changes to the law we need to make sure everyone we know who commutes in a city knows that HGVs are what's going to kill you. They're the sharks swimming amongst all the other harmless fish and if you take that view and stay well clear you massively reduce your chances of being killed

The reality for commuting in central London is running red lights is safe. Riding on the pavement is safe. Filtering at speed between lines of stationary or slow moving cars is safe. Proximity to HGVs = Death

@karenofnine

I agree with your comments, I have been commuting in London for 15 years and have noticed in the past few years with the massive increase in numbers of cyclists, a very noticeable decrease in the numbers of "safe" cyclists on the roads.

I only commute 3 miles each direction to work at the moment, from NW1 to WC2H.

Even bearing in mind this short distance, every day I see numerous instances of cyclists RLJ, pavement pedalling, cyclists going through pedestrians on a pedestrian crossing and going up the inside of HGV and Buses (often between the vehicle and steel railings).

Only this morning I thought I was about to see a fatality when a lad on a bike (wearing headphones) squeezed up in the inside of a large lorry waiting at red light, even though the lorry was indicating to make a left turn, and was sitting at an angle to make this left turn. I tried shouting to warn him, but was 15 feet behind the lorry and he could not hear me!

Once the lights changed, as the lorry pulled forward the gap quickly narrowed, he swerved, hit the kerb with his tires and fell onto the pavement holding his bike. Thank god there were no railings there.

The junction between Southampton Row and Russell Square (going south towards Covent Garden) is notorious for cyclists RLJ and riding up onto the pavement to get around the light. You can sit on your bike at the stop line and see 6-8 cyclists merrily going through this junction whilst pedestrians are crossing on their green light, whilst all motor vehicle traffic has stopped.

yes I will see bad driving, but the traffic is not moving very fast in Central London (it seems to be heavily gridlocked most of the time)

we have to sort ourselves out in terms of making other cyclists aware of the danger they put themselves and other road users in ( pedestrians, motorbikers and even motorists) as a careless or dangerous cyclist can easily instigate a road traffic collision

It is what it is, Londons roads (& pavements) are far too small for the type & volume of traffic using them, more will die, people (drivers & cyclists) are all too busy in their own bubble, near misses are frequent and people become desensitized to the risks around them, education and adverts won't hit their mark of targeted audience, TfL are having some positive effect on Londons cycling community but aren't dealing with some core issues around cycle safety whilst encouraging more people to use the bicycle.

For my 2 pence worth i'd personally restrict vehicles of a certain size (eg HGV) from certain areas during certain hours, create HGV (etc) routes into & out of central London. Commence an assessment of how best to introduce cycle specific routes (local access by car only) in central London. Cyclist awareness training would be great and i believe would save lives, but, again, getting those at need into such training is nigh on impossible.

(eg mini rantette) I still find it ridiculous that a delivering HGV can reverse across pavements & roads in central London without having a dedicated pedestrian spotter seeing them back and into their unloading area.

Are bicycles the only vehicle where you can be let out onto the road with zero training?

nope, horse, bicycle, tricycle, moped on L plates (as long as license prior to Jan 2013), mobility scooter, and on foot!

however another way to look at is is that it is [b]only[/b] motor vehicles that require a license/training, everyone else is just plain allowed to be there if they want to be*

*doesn't mean I don't think training is a good idea though

The reality for commuting in central London is running red lights is safe. Riding on the pavement is safe.

What a pile of utter, steaming bullshit!

Safe for the pedestrians crossing the road as you run a red? Safe for the car/bus/truck/other cyclist who is legally going through a green as you run a red?

Pavements? Oh do grow up. Or would you ride a motorbike on the pavement as well? Perhaps a car, too. Pavements are for pedestrians. Bike lanes are for bikes. Roads are for all road users (Buses, taxis, cars, trucks, motorbikes and, yes, bikes)

FFS.

Playing music in your ears is dulling one on your key senses.

Drop the headphones thing it's bollocks.

between 68% and 80% of cycle/motor vehicle collisions fault of driver

<edit>BTW I'm all for a bit of training, especially cycle training in school so everyone gets to ride a bike on roads. Teaching kids to stop at redlights may stay with them once they get a licence too (don't forget the multitude of RLJ drivers) and learning to watch out for drivers being dicks will save a few people. Of course actually stopping drivers being dicks will save a lot more.

Only this morning I thought I was about to see a fatality when a lad on a bike (wearing headphones) squeezed up in the inside of a large lorry waiting at red light, even though the lorry was indicating to make a left turn, and was sitting at an angle to make this left turn. I tried shouting to warn him, but was 15 feet behind the lorry and he could not hear me!

good on your for trying to shout and warn him, why do you think he did that? genuine question by the way, do you think he:

a> didn't know the danger
b> knew but didn't care?
c> didn't even think?
d> other?

so lets ban people who are deaf or have hearing problems and we'll be banning car radios too eh?

Drop the headphones thing it's bollocks.

thanks DONK! 😀

and sadly its declined by one more today. How can training kids in a school playground ever be a bad thing?

Im not saying its a bad thing. Im just saying if there's money to be spent its probably better spent on some thing else. Like a campaign to ban lorries from inner cities or on decent cycle infrastructure.

If there was plenty of money do both Im sure the dutch do.

every day I see numerous instances of cyclists RLJ, pavement pedalling, cyclists going through pedestrians on a pedestrian crossing

Yet how many actual collisions do you see?

We shouldn't ignore bad cycling habits, but to focus on them rather than address the far more serious issue of the dangers posed by large vehicles helps no-one.

Are bicycles the only vehicle where you can be let out onto the road with zero training?

What part of driver training involves driving safely in relation to cyclists?

every day I see numerous instances of cyclists RLJ, pavement pedalling, cyclists going through pedestrians on a pedestrian crossing
Yet how many actual collisions do you see?

We shouldn't ignore bad cycling habits, but to focus on them rather than address the far more serious issue of the dangers posed by large vehicles helps no-one.

true indeed, the way some people rant you get the feeling they wont even consider doing anything until every last cyclist is a 100% law abiding and trained to perfection. It's not an either or situation...

What part of driver training involves driving safely in relation to cyclists?

That's a little unfair, there is (supposed to be) plenty in there, however it's down to the individual instructors how they deliver and push this and problem being many people forget/ignore it after passing.

Could probably be improved/stressed more but to say there's nothign in there is a bit unfair, and I'm all for being fair.

I didn't say there was 'nothing in there', merely asking how much of driver training involves driving safely in relation to cyclists.

That's a little unfair, there is (supposed to be) plenty in there, however it's down to the individual instructors how they deliver and push this and problem being many people forget/ignore it after passing.

Oh and I did my test <10years ago I don't remember anything about cyclists other than them being hazards on the awareness test.

you're right, sorry I did over-assume a bit there cybicle

to answer honestly - not enough, but there is some about giving room, safe overtaking etc. it's probably not stressed enough in the hazard awareness tests and a lot of instructors probably don't give it the time it deserves.

had a few learner drivers do close passes, I always wonder if the instructor told them off later, in one or two cases I wondered WTF the instructor hadn't grabbed the wheel to steer away from me....

the optimist in me likes to think they got a stern telling off.
the realist in me thinks they probably said nothing
the pessimist in me thinks the instructor muttered under their breath about f'in cyclists

@amedias

I cannot speak for him, but from my observations I think a lot of new cyclists just don't understand how dangerous riding in heavy traffic can actually be, and how quickly things can go wrong (especially the HGV fatalities where it only takes brief contact with tire to get pulled under vehicle)

The old advise was "assume everyone is out to kill you" which just means keeping your wits about you at all times, and not putting yourself into risky situations where something can quickly go very wrong and perhaps cause serious injury or death

Something experienced commuters in London will tell you (I work in bike shops and hear this a lot) is what a hazard other cyclists have become to them in recent years, with lots of near misses from cyclists RLJ, failing to indicate, undercutting cyclists who are riding defensively in the correct position on the road, suddenly swerving, etc.

I regularly have cyclists trying to ride against me on a one-way street I use every day in Covent Garden, even when there is a motor vehicle just behind me.

The street outside our bike shop in Covent Garden is also one-way and our customers, shop staff and pedestrians have had numerous near misses as well as several accidents as riders plough into them after speeding the wrong-way up this street - if a motor vehicle is coming the cyclist will move onto the pavement (there is no kerb edge) to get around the oncoming vehicle.

Its become such a problem that the local Police Team has undertaken several blitzes ticketing cyclists, and the local authority has adjusted the no-entry signage on the street to reinforce this (not that these cyclists pay any attention..)

@esher

I'd tend to agree, I genuinely thing most people simply have no concept of how dangerous large vehicles can be, and how quickly things can go wrong if they are in the wrong place, and even what the 'wrong place' is.

Training can certainly help mitigate that, but doesn't change the fact that those vehicles are simply not suited to busy urban environments.

I do feel for the HGV drivers, it's a difficult job and even the best and most aware can find themselves struggling in busy towns and cities, and most of that is not down to their shortcomings, its down to the shortcomings of that vehicle in that environment.

it's a toughie to be sure...

What we need to do is take a "scientific approach" to this...

We have a situation where something bad is happening and there is debate over what is the cause. It is affecting people across the country, not just London.

So, looking at other similar situations, I would say it is very much like the Badger/Bovine TB debate.

I propose a selective cull of cyclists in one area, I'm going to nominate Manchester as a suitable candidate, and then what we can do is compare statistics before and after the cull.

Rachel

Are bicycles the only vehicle where you can be let out onto the road with zero training?

I don't remember having any specific pedestrian training but I seem to cope with that OK.
When was the last time a driver had any specific training? The answer for 90% of them will be "when they passed their test" which for some 60 year old doddering to the shops in his Micra will be 40-odd years ago. So nigh on useless and in modern terms may as well be considered as "having no training".

We can't keep focussing on:
cyclists have no training
cyclists have no insurance/don't pay "road tax" blah blah
cyclists all jump red lights
cyclists...

All it does is drive a deeper wedge into the knowledge gap of the average driver who thinks they own the roads, for every tiny step forward that cycling takes, it then slips back 9/10ths of that when some idiot pro cyclist wades in saying how helmets should be compulsory or when some idiot opinion columnist prints another anti-cycling diatribe.

So depressing that the answer to road safety seems to be to victimise the cyclist, paint the car driver as a law-abiding pillar of society and then say "just one of those things". 🙁

Its become such a problem that the local Police Team has undertaken several blitzes ticketing cyclists, and the local authority has adjusted the no-entry signage on the street to reinforce this (not that these cyclists pay any attention..)

Whereas if they simply banned cars from using those narrow streets (which are particularly unsuitable for motor vehicle traffic), and made them two-way for cyclists, the problem would be drastically reduced.

I propose a selective cull of cyclists in one area, I'm going to nominate Manchester as a suitable candidate, and then what we can do is compare statistics before and after the cull.

Can't we simply cull [i]all[/i] people in Manchester?

@cybicle

its something that is probably very unreported, unless a serious accident occurs.

in the past 14 months, whilst on foot, I have been hit by 2 cyclists in Camden, one outside the tube station where the lad rode straight through the red light and rode into me as I was crossing on a green pedestrian light, knocking me to the ground bruising my jaw and arm

then several months later on the pavement next to Sainsburys, women on old bike rode straight into me knocking my shopping bags over.

Last week on Friday night near New Oxford Street, as I was making a left turn on my bike (fully lit and indicating with my arm) a women rang straight across the pavement into the road, I rang my bell and shouted and managed to slide to a stop but she still ran straight into me knocking us both over.

I've seen numerous pedestrians / cyclists collisions especially junctions like the Strand onto Waterloo Bridge where the cyclists ignore the red stop light after coming off the cycle path across the pavement. I commuted this route every day for 6 years.

So it does happen.

It's not just cycling numpties in london who give us a bad name. I've begun to notice more and more of them in leeds and huddersfield every day.
Last nights numpty was wearing a grey corduroy jacket, black jeans (his sisters probably), no lights, no reflectors, and massive beats style headphones where i could hear his music from 10ft away. The little sh1te then tried to jump the red light and sneak across the ringroad from the station side of trinity street (stupid stupid stupid)

I wear earphones myself HOWEVER i only every listen to spoken word podcasts whilst riding and on low volume. I never listen to music and i can hear traffic around me just fine.

I've been flamed on here when i told how i'd had a conversation with another rider who was doing stupid maneuvers everyday and he'd reacted poorly to my advice. He still rides like a twonk everyday and it does my nut in. TBH if riders are going to be stupid then they are increasing their chance of dying.

I found cycling training extremely useful (i did bikeabilty level 3) and will insist that my nephews and niece all do it as well, even if i pay for it myself. It should be compulsory in schools - and there should be more awareness work done when people are being taught to drive. Flame me for sterotyping but my most recent near misses have been taxi drivers and young women/teenage girls

What a pile of utter, steaming bullshit!
Safe for the pedestrians crossing the road as you run a red? Safe for the car/bus/truck/other cyclist who is legally going through a green as you run a red?
Pavements? Oh do grow up. Or would you ride a motorbike on the pavement as well? Perhaps a car, too. Pavements are for pedestrians. Bike lanes are for bikes. Roads are for all road users (Buses, taxis, cars, trucks, motorbikes and, yes, bikes)
FFS.

People are overwhelmingly getting killed by HGVs. Any training or advice for cyclists in London has to focus on that fact and all the scaremongering about RLJing and headphone wearing is dangerous because it distracts people from the real risks. The recipe to drastically reduce your chances of being killed commuting in central London is simple:

1. Stay away from HGVs
2. Do whatever else you like, just remember the HGVs

On a more serious level to my previous post, I must admit that having spent years riding in Cambridge, I just won't do it any more - it's too dangerous, even compared to actual Mountain Biking...

The trouble is; the cause is very obviously other cyclists - last Winter I counted the bikes that actually had working lights that I saw between the centre and the train station - a big fat zero. Didn't seem to stop them doing all sorts of stupid things, including the one that had a go at me for stopping at a pedestrian crossing and riding into the back of my bike. :-/

Rachel

Esher-shore; I'm not denying that there are problems with cyclists (and pedestrians; I avoid the West End at all costs), just that as Crazy-Legs points out, we should be focussing on the main problems firts, namely too many cars in too small a space, too many HGVs, etc, before leaping to attack cyclists as being the main cause of issues.

If there are more people on bikes, then we should be reducing the amount of motor vehicles in built up urban ares, not forcing everyone to share the same shrinking space.

This, wrong:

I don't remember anything about cyclists other than them being [b]hazards [/b]on the awareness test.

@cybicle

I'd love to see motor vehicles removed from city centres, but as it stands we cannot use our feelings about "what should be" as an excuse to ignore cyclists that are breaking the law and putting people in danger.

The area around our shop is all one-way streets, and it only takes 30 seconds more on your bike to take the correct route to get onto Long Acre, rather than short cutting this by riding up a one-way street that has numerous pedestrians laden with shopping coming down the pavements.

The concern the police have about our street is that sooner or later someone will actually get killed, and it will probably be a cyclist having a head-on collision with a motor vehicle, because these cyclists are coming into this street off a left turn that is clearly designated "no left turn" and "no entry" and this corner is blind

You can stand in our shop in the morning when we take deliveries (there is a parking bay across the street) and watch numerous cyclists whizzing the wrong way up this one-way street, at considerable speed

It's not just cycling numpties in london who give us a bad name. I've begun to notice more and more of them in leeds and huddersfield every day.

That's the other thing I [b]hate[/b]

"give us a bad name"

If I said that all black people had a bad name cos I once saw a group of black people beat someone up, what response do you think that'd get?
If I said that all drivers had a bad name cos I saw a driver using her mobile this morning, it'd just be dismissed as talking bollocks.

But somehow, cos some cyclist jumped a red light in London this morning, that means it's OK for Mr White Van Man to punish pass me in Manchester cos hey, all cyclists have a bad name.

🙄

1. Stay away from HGVs
2. Do whatever else you like, just remember the HGVs

I agree with your first point in full. Very valid.

Second point? Utter shit. Sorry.

Do whatever you like? Really? So, mow your way through the red light outside a school? (Child's face, etc). Perhaps you'd like to ride the wrong way down a cycle lane? How about just nipping along the pavement down Cannon Street? After all, far safer to be on there than with those nasty HGVs...

No. Not the answer, and I'm struggling to work out if you're trolling or just a bit stupid, to be honest.

The answer, as many have said, is better awareness for ALL road users, better design of road junctions for ALL road users, better design of vehicles on the road (Look at what the trucking industry has already done with mirrors, audible signals etc. Still a lot to be done, but....), and a massive amount more common sense for ALL road users.

Advocating RLJing and riding on pavements it entirely counterproductive.

also, what crazy legs just said...

@crazy-legs

I'm sorry let me correct my sentence for your nit-picking sensibilities

It's not just cycling numpties in london who give [u]all cyclists including the readers and contributors to this conversation thread who the vast majority will identify themselves as cyclists[/u] a bad name. I've begun to notice more and more of them in leeds and huddersfield every day.

FTFY

EDIT: And no it is far from alright for those pathetic drivers to punish pass other cyclists for the numpties mistakes

I don't think he was picking on you specifically there, and he wasn't being nit-picky, it's a genuine problem with the way things are reported in the media and discussed in general

Us v Them
Cyclist Vs Non-Cyclist

it's not productive or helpful, we're just people using a bike to get from A to B, we have no agenda as 'a cylist' nor are we organised as a group, or any more affiliated with each other than you my be with other pedestrians when walking into town, or drivers when driving.

I once tested this on a a couple of my friends by telling them how I saw 'someone' jump a red light at a pedestrian crossing on the way to work, and nearly mowing down a woman with a pushchair and how annoyed I was about them giving 'us' a bad name, which then resulted in lots of agreement about bad cycling and the menace they cause and how they don't help themselves etc.

I then pointed out I was actually talking about a car and the sudden silence and perplexed looks said it all. Knowing that I was a cyclist they had just made the assumption, but I'm a driver too yet people are so quick to dismiss bad a driving as something 'someone else' does, where as bad cycling is something 'cyclists do'

I'd love to see motor vehicles removed from city centres, but as it stands we cannot use our feelings about "what should be" as an excuse to ignore cyclists that are breaking the law and putting people in danger.

But when those laws are drawn up to accommodate motor vehicle use, they often discount cyclists as unworthy of consideration. You know how if the council put a path round a patch of grass or park, and everyone takes a shortcut diagonally, creating a new path? That's what cyclists are doing, in a way. It's not ideal, but cyclists are often inconvenienced in order for car drivers to be catered for. Covent Garden s a ****ing nightmare to cycle round, chiefly because the road system is designed for motor vehicle traffic, in an area unsuitable for such heavy vehicle use. What should be happening in such areas, is enforced reduction of motor vehicles, especially at busy times. I can't see why it's a good idea to allow private motor vehicles in that area at all, during the day. Yet another example of the 'car is king' mentality that prevails. This attitude must be challenged if we're to find an effective solution. Constantly pandering to motorists doesn't help matters at all.

CFH I'm not advocating those things I'm just saying whether you do them is relatively unimportant when it comes to your safety

It's like saying if you smoke the biggest thing you can do to protect your health is give up. Don't worry about the gym or your diet, just focus all your efforts on quitting because smoking is so much more dangerous than anything else you can do. That's not the same as advocating pizza every night

If you give cyclists a long list of things they should and shouldn't do you'll get the situation where people are filtering up the inside of HGVs and thinking they're safe because they never run a red or listen to their walkman

12 deaths so far this year in London, 8 by HGVs. Concentrate on what matters

12 deaths so far this year in London, 8 by HGVs. Concentrate on what matters

Agreed in full. This was covered in your first point above. The second was the stupid comment.

I agree though, we need to get people focussing on how to be safer. I'd amend your points as follows;

1. Stay away from HGVs
2. [s]Do whatever else you like, just remember the HGVs[/s] Don't ride like a dick

It's worked for me for ages in London. Not one incident/near miss crash in years. (Apart from breaking my own point 2 by falling off when a little pished riding home from my local one night. Oops. All my own fault, and on an empty road thankfully)

@ameidas - too true. I reacted a bit there because i'm tired and cranky today. Sorry crazy-legs

I have a suspicion, though, that if we canvassed opinion of London residents, shopkeepers and workers that they would vote to ban bicycles from London streets, not HGVs...

Rachel

It's not just cycling numpties in london who give us a bad name.

@amedias: many thanks for explaining it better than I did!

Unfortunately in some colossal dick drivers minds all cyclists are lumped in together. I'd rather be disassociated with the colossal dick and/or suicidal numpty cyclists

Perhaps if more money was spent on enforcement of road trrafic laws with all the fines going into the enforcement pot and lots of advertising on radio and billboards adviisng that strict enforcemet will be taking place, Just then perhaps will casualties go down, and cycling will be seen for what it is, intresting, green commuting,a great exercise and environmmnetlay freindly.

I have a suspicion, though, that if we canvassed opinion of London residents, shopkeepers and workers that they would vote to ban bicycles from London streets, not HGVs...

IIRC I read something lately where police said after consultation in one area the number one thing people wanted them to focus on was bad cycling - despite the stats.

I'd rather be disassociated

Also like half the deaths have been from truck and half of them from tipper trucks pretty obvious the current design of trucks is unsuitable for mixing with cyclists.

It may have been said and i will probably antagonise a few but its true in my mind from experience

Truckers (on a whole) aint the brightest or most gentile of folk, tipper drivers (muck shifting guys) are the lowest form of trucker, the ones not trusted to drive lorries, have crashed them or just qualified. They are the sort who drive all day, and drink all night. There are so little margins in muck shifting that they are always rushing to get an extra trip done in the day as it makes a big difference to their take home as most of the trips go to cover costs, so if they get 6 trips in instead of 5 they may take home £120 instead of £80.

With this in mind they drive like ass holes and pay so little attention its untrue, and hence the skewed number of deaths by them. If it was a visibility thing then they would cause half as many deaths as Articulated trailered trucks cause. I dont know exact figures but know its considerably more than them.

Now car drivers are to blame too, and cyclists are also to blame, me included, however im a lot better rider than someone new to commuting and have been in dodgy situations, however i know what to look out for and im better equipped to get out of a situation if it occurrs.

However back to the point, JUST AVOID TIPPERS LIKE THE PLAGUE and take on board what i say, its through experience of meeting them continually, not on the off chance i met one prat.

Condolences to all taken this week too, its played on my mind a lot when around traffic this week

bland - Member

Truckers (on a whole) aint the brightest of folk

...

if they get 6 trips in instead of 5 they may take home £120 instead of £80.

🙂

I've said it before and i'll say it again.

A National TV ad campaign promoting the LIFESAVER.