Just goes to prove that an Oxbridge education does not automatically guarantee a well rounded and balanced individual ....... which is a bit of a concern given the disportionate number of our leaders who emanate from there.
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UKIP = The BNP in suits ??
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Posted 2 years ago #
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Suggest that I was more or less a fascist
No Ernie - I didnt say that, I said what I wrote - socialist, paternalistic and totalitarian
I'm accusing you (and your left wing buddies) of Stalinism - an obsession with state control, restriction of freedom and an intolerance of divergent points of view, lack of individuality and liberty in the name of collectivism.
totally different from Fascism, however equally repugnant!
Its easy to call the BNP right wing, however their economic policies are far, far from right wing - and thats one of the many reasons that I think they are a disgusting bunch of simplistic idiots, however I still think they have an absolute right to freedom of speech as long as they do incite violence.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hang on Zulu -
" I still think they have an absolute right to freedom of speech as long as they do incite violence"
Did you really mean to say that?
If so then you need help.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I still think they have an absolute right to freedom of speech as long as they do incite violence.
Hope that was a slip of the keyboard. Problem with you Libertarians is you see anything remotely collective you scream Stalinism. We have a right wing Government in power and THEY are the ones that are restricting our freedoms.
As for a intolerance of divergent points of view: pot calling kettle black.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Muddy dwarf - I think most of us have concluded that zulu is beyond help
Posted 2 years ago # -
I have the same arguments with American right wing conservatives.
They equate 'socialism' with Nazims because Nazism contains the wording 'National Socialism'. It is an old tactic of deflection, they know that Nationalism is diametrically opposed to the internationalism of true Socialism but they use it as a scare tactic against Americans who are told to be petrified of Socialism.
The BNP are attempting to do too, accusing the Army Chiefs of Nazi-like behaviour so that their more simple fellow-travellers will think "they can't be nazis 'cos he's just called them that".I suspect the more neanderthal of the BNP's membership will start to slip their bonds as the election approaches and we will see them in their true colours.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Yes, clearly I missed out the word Not - apologies, but I'm sure you all knew where I was coming from
We have a right wing Government in power and THEY are the ones that are restricting our freedoms.
I don't think that our government are anything approaching right wing economically
I think the problem for many of you is that you miss the difference between right wing/left wing economic policies and libertarian/authoritarian social policies - they get grouped together with a belief that right wing is automatically authoritarian, and left wing stands for freedom, its categorically not true, as we saw in Russia for most of the past century.
I disbelieve wholly and emphatically in authoritarian, controlling, paternalistic big state government.
I also disbelieve thoroughly in left wing economics, however thats a different argument
Posted 2 years ago # -
think the problem for many of you is that you miss the difference between right wing/left wing economic policies and libertarian/authoritarian social policies - they get grouped together with a belief that right wing is automatically authoritarian, and left wing stands for freedom, its categorically not true, as we saw in Russia for most of the past century.
Your right of course, in theory. History has taught us otherwise.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ratty - your suggestion that the BNP is "left-wing" is simply absurd.
Every reference ever made about the BNP, describes it as right-wing/far right party.
The link which I providing yesterday to the latest leaked BNP membership list describes it as :
"a right wing ethno-nationalist party"
which I think is an excellent and very precise description - the best I've ever heard actually.
If you are genuinely dismissing the BNP as in your opinion, a left-wing party, then it simply shows what a right-wing extremist you really are. Quite scary really
Posted 2 years ago # -
ukip=bnp in suits=torries in europe?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/20/tories-eu-allies-us-pressure
Posted 2 years ago # -
Again Ernie, you're falling into the common and widespread conflation between economic policies and social policies.
Nobody in their right mind could call the BNP's economic policies right wing - they are the absolute opposite of free market economics - nationalisation of industry, trade tariffs, state owned businesses - a right wing policy?
Its probably sub-conscious but it reflects a reflexive left:good / right:bad mindset. the BNP have nothing to do with right wing politics - they're a nasty, protectionist, bigoted divisive racist party that has its roots firmly planted on the economic far left of the political spectrum
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nobody in their right mind could call the BNP's economic policies right wing - they are the absolute opposite of free market economics....
Directly from the BNP website dealing with "Policies" sub-section "Economy" the BNP is, quote :
"Fully cognisant of the reality that economic growth is driven primarily by true free enterprise"
You really need to stop talking nonsense Ratty
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ernie - this question has no hidden agenda nor is it from any political standpoint, it is a genuine question:
Why, in your opinion, is it immediately racist to question the success of multiculturalism?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Why, in your opinion, is it immediately racist to question the success of multiculturalism?
It isn't imo. The context in which the comment was made had a strong whiff of racism about it.
I have already said that Ratty, as far as I am aware, doesn't have a track record of making racist comments. So despite the fact that he didn't respond imo, to my request to clarify exactly what he meant, I am prepared to accept that it wasn't said with racist intent.
btw just for the record, I am a very strong supporter of tight immigration controls. It's a shame that the big parties tend to shy away from dealing with issue in a sensible non-racist way. Thereby leaving it to nasty racist organisations to exploit the issue for their own repulsive agenda.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ernie - if you are to the right of attilla the hun like ratty then all economic policies seem to be from the far left
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nice discussion on what is fascism here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8316271.stm
The exact details are blurred on what *is* fascism, but the article comments on how it is generally bandied about by people when they want a really offensive insult to sling.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nice Selective quote there Ernie - how about the other points?
Globalisation has caused the export of jobs and industries to the Far East, and has brought ruin and unemployment to British industries and the communities who depend on them.
Accordingly, the BNP calls for the selective exclusion of foreign-made goods from British markets and the reduction of foreign imports. We will ensure that our manufactured goods are, wherever possible, produced in British factories, employing British workers.
Free market economics? I think not!
When this is done, unemployment in this country will be brought to an end and secure, well-paid employment will flourish.
We further believe that British industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the British nation and people.
Right wing?
To that end the BNP will restore our economy and land to British ownership and will take active steps to break up the socially, economically and politically damaging monopolies now being established by the supermarket giants.
Fully cognisant of the reality that economic growth is driven primarily by true free enterprise, a BNP government will seek to give British workers a stake in the success and prosperity of the enterprises whose profits their labour creates. Such schemes are the only guarantee of workers being motivated to ensure the success of their employers.
Sorry, thats sounds suspiciously like the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service. To me!
The Labour government recently introduced legislation to discriminate against white males in the job market. This racist legislation is a travesty and gross betrayal of the British working class, and will be repealed forthwith by a BNP government, along with all other measures which in any way discriminate against the indigenous population.
The state institutions were built by British taxpayers and there is a moral duty and obligation on the state to give preference in the job market to native Britons.
Free market?
The banksters cannot be let off the hook for their role in the current financial crisis. The BNP demands that the banksters responsible for the catastrophe which has crippled the international banking system be held personally legally liable for their actions in terms of corporate governance laws. They should have to pay a personal price for the mess they have created, and not be rewarded with huge bonuses which have come from taxpayer-funded bailouts.
In a nutshell, the BNP plan to rebuild Britain will consist of the following steps:
- The nurturing and encouragement of new and existing British industries;
- The protection of British companies from unfair foreign imports;
market protectionism? right wing?
- The promotion of domestic competition;
- Increased taxes on companies which outsource work abroad;
- The reintroduction of the married man’s allowance;
- The raising of the inheritance tax threshold to £1 million;
- The encouragement of savings, investment, worker share-ownership and profit-sharing;
- Halving council tax by centralising education costs and eliminating multiculturalism spending and unnecessary bureaucracy;
- The renationalisation of monopoly utilities and services, compensating only individual investors and pension funds. Privatising monopolies does not benefit either the consumer or the country. All that happens is the ‘family silver’ is sold off and monopoly utilities and services are asset-stripped, often by foreign competitors.
Renationalisation? Right wing policy?
The economy should be managed for the benefit of the nation. The other parties are enslaved to laissez-faire globalism, which means that British workers must compete against those in China and India who work for as little as a pound a day.
Oriental countries such as Japan, South Korea and Singapore have managed their economies to combine private enterprise competition with the national good, and these are the models the BNP would emulate.
Collectivism!
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n a world in which irreplaceable natural resources are being depleted at an alarming rate we have a duty to our children and future generations to move towards economic growth which is socially, environmentally and economically sustainable in the long-term, rather than the present ‘boom and bust’ policies.
Personal tax is far too high. Billions of pounds can be slashed off government spending by inter alia:
- Ending the £9 billion foreign aid budget;
- Ending the £4.5 billion a year wars in Iraq and Afghanistan;
- Ending the untold billions spent subsidising the immigration swindle and all its ancillary costs (benefits, court and jail services, counter-terrorism measures, the “race relations” industry and a host of others);
Sounds pretty much like every government since time immemorial
- Ending the billions pumped into the EU swindle;
- Severely curtailing the tax-subsidised feeding frenzy at Westminster and other levels of government; and
- Cutting back all unnecessary layers of government which have been artificially created by years of politically correct Labour and Tory rule.
Actually about the only points I'd agree with them on
Posted 2 years ago # -
I've just spent a week in South Africa on business. I'm not easily phased when abroad, but the overt racism that I came across when I was there really shook me rigid. Two particular instances stick in my mind, one being a discourse at the dinner table by an intelligent, articulate, well travelled white woman as to how the "blacks" are not as reliable as the "coloureds", however, if you want someone who'll be really trustworthy they have to be white. The second being another discourse, this time on the subject of how the Jews are responsbile for the worlds current economic situation.
The point of this, was that until being slapped in the face with this throwback to the 60's and 70's I was of the opinion that free speech was the significant issue, and that even racists had a right to their opinions. We, in this country have moved on a long way, but frankly it would be a mistake to let that slip. I cannot even start to explain how deeply offensive I found those comments, and it really has made me reconsider my stance on ALL of the intolerants and bigots in this world, whther it be Nick Griffin, or anyone else.
They are not entitled to abuse and denegrate others. It is simply unacceptable, and as far as I'm concerned should be limited to the closet and nowhere else.
Posted 2 years ago # -
When was the last time the UK allowed in a foreign Muslim to preach hatred against Christians?
Um, Abu Hamza? And as far as I can tell, he got on unchallenged for a fair amount of time.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ratty really, you need to stop it ......you're talking complete nonsense mate.
You know very well that even extreme right-wing fascists like General Franco believed in nationalising the railways, but it didn't stop him from being committed to right-wing free markets policies.
And yes, the BNP have jumped on the bandwagon and attacked bankers, or "banksters " as they call them in their childish way because it sounds like "gangster" .......unbelievable how they can descend into such puerile bollox on their own official website. But there is no mention whatsoever of nationalising the banks - obviously it's not something which they believe in.
And yes, they talk about schemes which are "the only guarantee of workers being motivated to ensure the success of their employers." So workers should only be motivated to "ensure the success of their employers" ? That doesn't sound very "left-wing" to me.
Of course you completely ignore the fact that they believe, quote : "that economic growth is driven primarily by true free enterprise" despite the fact that you claimed they had no commitment to free enterprise !
I could go on, but quite frankly I can't be arsed mate .............sorry
Posted 2 years ago # -
BB - Having worked in several international plcs and travelled for my job, the views you heard are not only confined to SA. There are equally abhorrent views held in Aus, US, and, more on a national basis than race, in a lot of Europe.
We are not perfect by a long way, but we are better than many.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Um, Abu Hamza?
Firstly he's in prison.
Secondly, he was already living in Britain when he committed his offences. Britain did not knowingly allow someone in on the understanding that they would be spreading hatred.
There is no comparison whatsoever.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Wasn't Abu Hamza wanted in Jordon for similar things when we accepted him here? Thought there was a whole issue about him being repatriated there.
In which case ernie, this ain't right.
Britain did not knowingly allow someone in on the understanding that they would be spreading hatred.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Wasn't Abu Hamza wanted in Jordon for similar things when we accepted him here?
Not that I am aware of. Abu Hamza has been a British citizen since 1980 - a time when Islamic fundamentalists and extremists were being officially supported by the British government.
I don't believe that Geert Wilders has ever held British nationality.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Posted 2 years ago #
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soz Ernie, Yemen not Jordon.
Just something I remembered about the hooker of Islam from the depths of my memory somewhere.
Apologies.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Yemen not Jordon.
As I understand, Abu Hamza is wanted in Yemen in connection with bomb plots - not for preaching hatred. I believe that the alleged terrorist involvement occurred long after Abu Hamza had become a British citizen and had the right to entry into the UK.
He is not a good example of a foreigner who has knowingly been allowed by the authorities, to enter the UK with the aim of spreading hatred and social discord.
I have to assume that if he is the best example in answer to my question : "When was the last time the UK allowed in a foreign Muslim to preach hatred against Christians?" then examples of foreign Muslims being knowingly allowed into Britain to preach hatred against Christians, are very thin on the ground.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Wasn't that Sheikh Bakree ???? tolerated for a while after calling for the execution of the Prime minister - I'm struggling to remember the details
Berm Bandit - did you mean Abu Qatada?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Abu Hamza.........Sheikh Bakree ? Abu Qatada?
OK so basically we are looking at examples of foreign (or not so foreign) Muslims which the authorities have quite rightly, taken action against .....expelled, imprisoned, whatever.
How does that in anyway justify allowing a foreigner from the Netherlands to come here so that he can stir up trouble ?
Posted 2 years ago # -
ernie_lynch, what's the difference between tolerating hateful speech just because it happens after the speaker has landed, and letting in a guy because words he has used in the past have been judged to be hateful?
Even if we can suppose he will say the same things again once in the country, the type of toleration appears to be essentially the same.
In any case, whereas the blond guy does seem quite off-putting, as far as I have heard, he has never talked in violent terms about his subject (radical Islamists) the way radical Islamists have been known to talk about... well... pretty much anyone who isn't a radical Islamist.
But if I'm wrong, I will take that back.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Berm Bandit - did you mean Abu Qatada?
Nope definately mean Abu Hamza al-Masari.As I understand, Abu Hamza is wanted in Yemen in connection with bomb plots - not for preaching hatred
Bit of a wriggle there if you don't mind me saying so Ernie. Please quote the names of at least three people who are wanted for blowing people up on the basis that they liked them very much indeed. In return I shall ride my bike naked around my local forest for one hour, obviously on the basis that you reciprocate should you be unable to do so.
Posted 2 years ago # -
hi guys, new to the forum
this is some deep shit you guys are talking here, very enlightening.
almost like a modern day history lesson.Posted 2 years ago # -
he has never talked in violent terms about his subject (radical Islamists) the way radical Islamists have been known to talk about... well... pretty much anyone who isn't a radical Islamist.
He doesn't seem to draw much, if any, of a distinction between terrorists and Muslims. If he does then he's astonishingly bad at expressing it. And the reason his film stops short of advocating violence against Muslims is pretty obvious - he'd be charged with inciting religious hatred (which has happened anyway).
He doesn't really have anything to say apart from condemning Islam as an irredeemably violent religion - based on the actions of a handful of its supporters, some cherry-picked verses from the Koran, and the actions of a couple of political regimes whose human rights abuses are widely known and condemned, usual by organisations such as Amnesty who don't resort to offending several million followers of a religion. Even if you accept that his polemic is somehow meant with the best of intentions, I can't see what it offers in the way of constructive solutions.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I once saw a documentary about "Sheikh" Bakree. At one point, he was walking through an HMV with the film crew and interviewer when he passed a cardboard cutout of the "Spice Girls". He simpered at the camera and said:
"Who are these spicy whimmen? They must be arrested immediately!"
Musical considerations apart - what a ridiculous little gnome he is...
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
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