TJ, are you not english? (sorry if I've misunderstood).
What if they boot you out?

I think in 50 yrs there will be a federal settlement in Europe with about 60 smaller states pooling resources where needed

Plus France of course

Backhander – of English birth of English parents. I am however what the SNP refer to as an "assimilated Scot" ie scotland is my home. We will be allowed to stay Wee Eck informs me. even to I have an English accent.

Donald – France is one of the few European countries that really does appear to be unified and have no splittists bar a few Basques

Fair enough. It's nice up there I bet. I like north wales; living by snowdonia would be a dream.

France is one of the few European countries that really does appear to be unified

well….France and the state of Paris

whippersnapper – Member

France is one of the few European countries that really does appear to be unified

well….France and the state of Paris

And Corsica, and the Catalan areas…

An independent Scotland would still be part of the EU

This is assuming that the EU would want you as a member. You forget that the UK (which under your bizarre jingoistic and narrow minded view would be dissolved) is a member, not the individual states. In any case, when the oil runs out, you'd be drawing subsidy from the EU, whereas England would be contributing. Surely that's no different than just getting it direct from Westminster?

No matter what the Scots think, a nation with 50ish m people will always be stronger economically than one with 6ish m.

This is assuming that the EU would want you as a member. You forget that the UK (which under your bizarre jingoistic and narrow minded view would be dissolved) is a member, not the individual states

The French vetoed our application last time – they may well do that again 😀

Zokes – of course the EU would still have Scotland as a member. It does have a significant proportion of the EU fish stocks as well as the oil. This has already been a source o injformal discussions and it does not appear to be an issue.

Narrow minded and jingoistic? How ridiculous. I am neither. Argumentative to the point of absurdity perhaps .

As for economic stength – of course a bigger economy is more resilient – but not necessarily stronger. However an independent Scotland could persue economic policies to suit itswelf rather than the one size fits all ( so long as it is south east England it fits) that we have at the moment which does not suit Scotland all the time. flexibility and the ability to set economic policy to suit would make up for the lessor size.

Its a window of opportunity now to do this – so the oil money can be invested in teh wider economy. There is not a huge amount left for sure – but its still enough to give the Scotish economy the start it would need to invest in infrastructure and new technology.

zokes – Member
…No matter what the Scots think, a nation with 50ish m people will always be stronger economically than one with 6ish m.

I don't think anyone disputes this.

But a small country that is not running major wars is less likely to be destroying its economy. Scotland has enough natural resources to survive, plus its greatest resource is its people.

Why are the English so het up about Scotland becoming independent? You'd think they would be glad to be rid of us if we are such a drain on their economy.

Perhaps they should instead concentrate on winning themselves some basic freedoms instead of the serf like status they have in England – apparently their feudal masters can stop them wandering around in their own country.

he overall scheme being 200-300 dead innocent PamAm/Locerbie residents

what about the 290 people shot down on Iran Air Flight 655?

If you think the union is in a sate now then wait a couple of years. Tories in Westminster = independence for Scotland in a decade. SNP are on course to get a majority next time and Cameron knows his best chance of keeping labour out is to get rid of their 50 scots MPs

what a load of [made up on the spot] twaddle

There's a fundamental flaw in your theory – The Tories proper, Sunday best name is the Conservative & Unionist Party
Can you see the problem they'll have there?

epicyclo – Member
plus its greatest resource is its people.

Who's left? They are all down here moaning how much better it is back up there. Parliament is full of them.

G – a couple of points you miss. Reinvigorating gaelic is a very low priority in Scotland

Thats what I said wasn't it? Its a waste of time and money, because very few people have any interest in it.

– unlike in wales welsh is spoke widely.

Yep, where after years of huge amounts of investment, and the ongoing institutionalised disadvantage to its citizens, you have a situation where less than 25% of the population speak Welsh!

Regarding the EU, there we are largely in agreement, and again thats pretty much what I said wasn't it? Everyone else is looking beyond their borders, whilst we are busily becoming more insular? (Like enforcing a dead language that nobody else uses or is ever likely to use on our population!!)

Incidentally, the UK's policies towards it colonies were largely formulated and carried out by Normans and Germans. Down here in the south we still don't like them for that reason, however we have learned to live with it and genrally limit our ire to football matches and the like! Now who was it who started the EU??…… can't quite remember.

What does that mean? The bad stuff was a long time ago, get over it!

From a Scot living in England

They are all down here moaning how much better it is back up there. Parliament is full of them.

which shows what an excellent job they're doing on you

unlike in wales welsh is spoke widely.

Recently, I rode a motorbike across Wales. It rained overnight and the roads were a bit damp in the morning. Normally something a compertent rider can deal with. But all the road signs are in English (which Ispeak) and Welsh (which I don't). As you may know, that white paint that goes on road is tremendously grip-free, easily causing a bike to lose traction and skid, with the potential to either crash there and then, or to suddenly regain traction and throw the rider off. So, the roads are made jsut that little bit more dangerous, and for whose benfit? those people who don't understand the word SLOW. Or is ARAF the Welsh for Warning, Slippy White Paint on Road, High Skid Potential.

Bigbutslimmer

When I arrived here in Taffy Land a few years back I struggled with Welsh Language first signs. By the time you get to the English bit which says 'slow the **** down' its usually too late as you have spent all your time coughing and spitting your way through the first bit!

Now I'm completely used to it and my 'road sign' Welsh (and my general Welsh for that matter) is better than my Welsh wife's! Still I can see how it can cause issues.

Still back on track. Frankly my problem with Scotland is this (and I'm probably as Scottish as they come – descended from, mother was one, family from Shetlands ya de ya!) WHAT THE HECK HAPPENS WHEN THE USA DISCOVER THE JOCKS HAVE OIL?!!

Let's face it guys this is very similar to how Gulf War II started. Accusations of misdealing, oil, hostage releases etc. And surely, no wait, don't tell me; Scotland HAS got verifiable Weapons of Mass Destruction!

Frankly my opinion is that your about to hear of a new operation called Peat Bog Storm led by coalition forces and Uncle Sam. Wouldn't want to be Alex Salmond for a pension (you do have pensions?)

There are WMDs in scotland – Faslane.

Scotland HAS got verifiable Weapons of Mass Destruction!

Indeed they have

rogerthecat – Member
…Who's left? They are all down here moaning how much better it is back up there. Parliament is full of them.

Bonus for us, you get to keep them 🙂

…Reinvigorating gaelic is a very low priority in Scotland

Not where I live. For a dying language, a lot of people are interested in it. Most of my family speak it.

For a dying language, a lot of people are interested in it. Most of my family speak it.

Which in my book is great, and I would wholeheartedly support your right to that interest. However, my point is that this anecodtal evidence and the quantifyably unstunning "success" of Welsh where it has been a mandatory curriculum item for years does not support an argument for resigning the roads etc etc etc into bi-lingual or solely Gaelic.

I dunno G when i was at uni and aber the locals would use it all the time
basically theyd break into welsh whenever a student came into hearing range

Which in my book is great, and I would wholeheartedly support your right to that interest. However, my point is that this anecodtal evidence and the quantifyably unstunning "success" of Welsh where it has been a mandatory curriculum item for years does not support an argument for resigning the roads etc etc etc into bi-lingual or solely Gaelic.

Or remove road signs altogether?

Not where I live. For a dying language, a lot of people are interested in it. Most of my family speak it.

Surely its like Irish Gaelic but softer?

WHAT THE HECK HAPPENS WHEN THE USA DISCOVER THE JOCKS HAVE OIL?!

It'll all be gone by then anyway.

My point, btw, was why is all that extra paint on the roads? SLOW – most of Europe understands that. ARAF – no-one does, but it's dangerous putting it there.

Scotland HAS got verifiable Weapons of Mass Destruction!

Indeed we do

Not to mention..

Have you seen their leader?! Why you'sss!!!!

basically theyd break into welsh whenever a student came into hearing range

If I had a quid for every time I heard this crock: 'I walked in to a shop and they immediately started talking in Welsh.' The odds are they were talking Welsh when you walked in, and how did they 'immediately' know you didn't speak Welsh?

Gives me the arsehole.

In Wales they speak Welsh it's how it is. In France I believe they may even speak French.

In France I believe they may even speak French

No, they talk English with a funny accent, just like on Allo, Allo. They only break into some made up language when you happen along.

tankslapper – Member
In Wales they speak Welsh it's how it is.

Not so, firstly less than 25% of the population actually can speak Welsh, secondly its very localised. For example, Tenby, virtually 100% English speakers, Pendine, not 13 miles away the other way around……

Anyway you're an arse…. you accused me of coming from Norfolk!! 😯

If I had a quid for every time I heard this crock:

I have personally experienced the change to Welsh thing on several occasions, however, its not much different to a pub going quite when a stranger walks in.

G – Member
"For a dying language, a lot of people are interested in it. Most of my family speak it."
Which in my book is great, and I would wholeheartedly support your right to that interest. However, my point is that this anecodtal evidence…

The point is that to some of us it is a core and essential part of our culture. Obviously it would have absolutely no appeal to a Lowland Scot for example. I think it is fair to expect that Gaelic get the same educational support that other languages get in schools. In my day I had French and Latin beaten into me when I would sooner have had my native language. It's a bit different now. I doubt the language is going to conveniently roll over and die any time soon.

I think the confusion issue with the road signs could be fixed by removing the English from the signs 🙂 Who reads the things anyway?

We do things differently in Scotland – right down to releasing terrorists and forgetting to bend over for the USA

The point is that to some of us it is a core and essential part of our culture.

And my point is that you have an absolute right to that. You don't however have a right to force it upon others in the way that Welsh did. Basically the argument is do you take indifference as a Yes or a No ?

G – Member
And my point is that you have an absolute right to that. You don't however have a right to force it upon others in the way that Welsh did. Basically the argument is do you take indifference as a Yes or a No ?

We probably are taking our cue from the way English language was introduced to us. My parents' generation were belted if found speaking Gaelic at school. My generation were severely discouraged. Thus we tend to be a wee bit sensitive over any further opposition to our language.

We are not forcing it on anyone, but we will defend the right to have it used in our own country.

Indifference is fine by me 🙂

G Doesn't do indifference 😆

"We" are doing no such thing! You and folk who feel equally strongly on the subject are, but the vast majority are simply indifferent. So say for example given the choice of Gaelic becoming a compulsary subject on the Scottish curriculum and Dual languaging of road signs being introduced, or paying less tax. How do you think the majority would vote? I'm pretty confident of the answer to that one.

I was belted at school too for infringing the rules of the day, and I suspect that if you check you will find that speaking Gaelic was one of a very long list of things you could get belted for, same as there was a very long list at my school too. Thats how things were then, get over it, it wasn't any kind of racist slur, just a perception of how things were best done. (NB: Remember even then that would have been predominately Scottish teachers and the Scottish Curriculm has been different from the rest of the UK for at least a century if not longer.)

tankslapper – Member
G Doesn't do indifference [/quote]

I'm indifferent to you yer git! 😉

I very much doubt it will backfire on them and I think you can be farily sure that the next Holyrood parliament will have an SNP majority

It already has backfired if you believe the latest opinion polls held in Scotland.

G – Member
…I was belted at school too for infringing the rules of the day, and I suspect that if you check you will find that speaking Gaelic was one of a very long list of things you could get belted for, same as there was a very long list at my school too. Thats how things were then, get over it, it wasn't any kind of racist slur, just a perception of how things were best done…

It definitely was racist.

I have had the opportunity to read school logbooks from the belting era. An especial beauty was the remarks of the headmaster at Cromore who regarded most of his students as sub-normal. He was a Lowland Scot teaching in an island school in English to students who arrived at the school gates without a word of that language.

We have "got over it" but we'll be damned if we allow the repression of our language and culture to continue, so we are doing something about it.

We have "got over it"

Clearly not!

So lets consider this for a moment….. so we are talking about a Scottish headmaster in a Scottish school teaching the Scottish Curriculum, as decided upon by the Scottish Education Authority, under the auspices of the Scottish Educational System, which was then and has been for a very long time different to those in the rest of the UK, and somehow you have managed to turn that into racist oppression by the English??????

Get a grip FFS! Like I said the majority of the country (Scotland) are indifferent at best, and fiercely anti at worst. Most English couldn't give a damn either way, beyond stifling a snigger behind their hand at the stupidity of it all.

If you want it have it, but first you have to remember that there is no differential between Highland and Lowland Scots in law, and you have to convince the majority….. which I believe are lowlanders.

I think G you are probably referring to chookters – Highland Scots who once and a while blow into Glasgow or Edinburgh with their kids who end up pointing at things and shouting 'Look mummy! A hoose wa wheels!' 'don't be silly son that's a bus!'

I think the shame of the thing is that we were all doing so well under the Act of Union why did we have to take the regressionary step of devolution? Are we closer as a country now or are people more remote from 'democracy' whatever that is?!

I'm not certain anyone's culture and language is being repressed in Scotland today. Should a language be allowed to die? Probably not, I think Gaelic and Welsh place names are far more evocative of their surroundings than English names can ever be. I think the biggest threat to the language , since I lived there, has been the massive influx of outsiders who have made their money in the cities and gone to live the rural idyll.

The issue with Highland Scots culture is where do you draw a line? Nostalgia not being what it was the often over romanticised version of 1745, Bonnie Prince Charlie etc lays bare a great deal of questions over the Highland / Lowland split.

School reports?! The two that stick in my mind where comments by successive Physics Teachers who proclaimed

'TS would be good in the British Army he's done more damage in this school than a Centurion Tank'

'I see your son's handwriting is improving particularly in the boys toilets on floor 2b'

Ah Happy Days!

And as for holding on to culture, where I come from you'd have more chance of starting a culture in a yoghurt! On one side you have the faux Irish history of rebels and Saints and on the other its the Ulster Scots! FFS! We are all supposed to learn Rabbie Burns and talk in the dialect of late 18th Century Scots!

tcheuchters?

Yes Scotland has done well out of the union the past 100 yrs. Higher mortality / lower lifespan than the rest of the union. GDP rising slower than the rest of the union. Unemployment higher, incomes lower.

Presume the stats also factor in lower land and property prices, lower cost of living etc etc etc and do I presume that the culture so merrily lauded above of fried everything and alcohol abuse is also the fault of the English eh TJ??

My favourite school report was the one immediately after my mock exams, which read….. I hope this boy finds his exams as amusing as he does his lessons! ….

For what its worth, my first day at that school was permeated by being mugged for my dinner money, my tie and school badge being removed with a cut throat razor, two of my first year peers having their legs broken during some bizarre initiation, and a fight in the playground that resulted in a 5th year boy having an eye gouged out. My first PE lesson involved a 6'10" rugby player kicking a rugby ball at 40 11 year old boys lined up across one end of the gym, and the deal was 10 press ups if you got hit and 20 if you moved. My first games afternoon was cancelled due to a pipe bomb being set off in an incinerator, and the whole school was locked in the school hall while the Police carried out interviews from the 5th year down. I was caned regularly throughout my whole time at that school for not having a school badge, whenever the headmaster saw me. (I refused to ask my parents to buy another after day 1.)

…….and do I blame the English??? Nope Thats how school was in those days.

Jeezo G – where on earth was your school? One of the feepaying schools at a guess?

Flippant remarks from me but there is a basic truth in that over the last 100 yrs Scotland has rarely had the government it has voted for ( tories having had a minority of the scottish votes and seats since 1950 IIRC)and has had to have the same economic policies as the rest of the UK which have often not suited. Cost of living is higher in Scotland than many parts of England

Its not about blaming the English – its about believing that the political settlement has held Scotland back
Ultimatly it comes down to whether you believe in self determination and nationhood for the people of Scotland or not and that is a faith based argument. Myself I believe an independent Scotland would be a fairer, healthier and more prosperous society.