Shimano FH-M435 rough after snow

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Shimano FH-M435 rough after snow

24 posts & 13 voices | Started 3 months ago by muckytee | Latest reply from muckytee

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muckytee - Member

My rear hub feels rough after a few rides in the cold and snow. I serviced it with parktool's polylube grease recently. My SLX 20mm at the front feels fine.

I could service it again but don't really see the point if after a few wet rides it will go horrid again. Is this normal for cup and cone bearings to feel rough after 3 rides?

I couldn't find my rear hub on tech docs. Seems like some cheapo non series thing... What rear hub would you suggest I upgrade too? (except the Hope pro II)

Would a shimano XT hub be any better?

Cheers

Posted 3 months ago #
relliott6879 - Member

Nowt wrong with a Hope Pro II , I've had a pair for years and they're both still buttery smooth. An XT hub will be better than your 435 (I have one of those too and, like yours, it's pants) but any cup and cone hub will always need more maintenance than a catridge bearing hub. If you're dead set against Hope (no reason why you should be, but still) then perhaps look at DT instead.

Posted 3 months ago #
muckytee - Member

Nothing against Hope, just the maintenance cost of new bearings and I'll need the tools too. Are there any cup and cone hubs apart from shimano?

Posted 3 months ago #
xiphon - Member

New bearings for Hopes can be picked up dirt cheap, and you don't need any fancy tools to insert/extract the bearings.

My Hope Bulb bearings are coming up to 6 years old now...

Posted 3 months ago #
cp - Member

As above - hope are a doddle to replace bearings and are cheap & IME last A LONG time. No need to worry about worn hub cups.

M435 and all Shimano 4XX hubs are famous for rubbish sealing.

Deore M5XX and above have much better sealing.

Posted 3 months ago #
antigee - Member

http://bike.shimano.com.sg/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/FH/EV-FH-M435-2996A_v1_m56577569830708781.pdf

top tip always put the word "technical" in the google search to find shimano part manuals

numpty q: are you sure the cones haven't worked loose? not sure which shimano hub it was i fettled earlier in year but ended up having to loctite one side and use a lot, lot more force than i normally would - apparently not unusual

Posted 3 months ago #
relliott6879 - Member

Nothing against Hope, just the maintenance cost of new bearings and I'll need the tools too. Are there any cup and cone hubs apart from shimano?

Cup and cone hubs are an ageing and increasingly rare technology, with Shimano one of the few mainstream manufacturers sticking by them. I don't know why this is, but Shimano can be strange that way, they persisted with (very good) threaded headsets until they were all but obsolete but have never produced a threadless version. Cup and cones have a greater capacity to go out of adjustment and are more susceptible to dirt ingress, not so much an issue of on road bikes as it is on mountain bikes but a pain the arse regardless. You really won't need to replace cartridge hub bearings too often, but here are some cup and cone hubs if you really prefer them.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26615

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=65298

Posted 3 months ago #
muckytee - Member

are you sure the cones haven't worked loose?

There isn't any play in the wheel, and the lock nuts are still tight.

Hope rear hubs costs around £100? My bike ain't that fancy to warrant that money being spent on it...

Deore M5XX and above have much better sealing.

Deore 525 or XT 756?

Posted 3 months ago #
cp - Member

either - or even SLX, M665.

Posted 3 months ago #
coatesy - Member

You'll also want one with a similar disc mount if you're not rim-braked, and want to keep your old disc.The pic in the techdocs shows a splined mount, but some of the suggested models are 6-bolt type.

Posted 3 months ago #
andyl - Member

I would service them again as the cones might actually have tightened hence the rough feel. Also try backing off your QR a touch and see how if feels. If it is better then (don't ride it with a lose QR) give them another service.

Posted 3 months ago #
bm0p700f - Member

If its rough that qwuickly then maybe there was some pitting/brinnelling on the cones or hubs? If the sealing is no good on these hubs then maybe that could be a cause.

Bearings:
Also what bearings did you use? If these bearings came from an LBS in a cage then they could be grade 1000 - rough as sand paper. Shimano specify grade 40 for there lower end hubs and grade 25 for the high end I think. I cannot stress enought the importance of good quality balls for bearings. Also use loose balls as you get more in and the load is spread more. When I service hubs in my shop, even if its a cheap bike with cheap hubs they always get done with grade 25 or better loose balls. The hubs then run super smooth.

Grease: I have not tried Park's grease at all, I use Rock n Rolls super web. Not cheap but the its damm good grease.

Hopes are lovely I have a set, but XT hubs run just as smooth for a long time (I have a set too) and are alot cheaper. I would buy XT again without hesitation and service them anually.

Posted 3 months ago #
muckytee - Member

It's not that, they don't feel tight, I have taken the wheel out and had a feel, definitely muck and grit ingress. Shame Shimano don't do a six bolt SLX hub

Edit: The bearings are still the ones that came with the hub, not had it that long about 5 months, shimano are a bit tight on grease so gave it a service.

Posted 3 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

I would expect andyl has it - check the bearing adjustment, it requires finesse, only needs to be slightly tight and it will feel rough, on a cheap hub anyway.

Best sealing comes on lx and above.

And...just for balance:

relliott6879 - Member
Cup and cone hubs are an ageing and increasingly rare technology, with Shimano one of the few mainstream manufacturers sticking by them.

I expect few others have the capacity to manufacture them, campag gave up to use alu axles and save weight?

I don't know why this is, but Shimano can be strange that way, they persisted with (very good) threaded headsets until they were all but obsolete but have never produced a threadless version.

I don't know either but I suspect they don't want to pay the licence fee.

Cup and cones have a greater capacity to go out of adjustment

I would disagree - the bearings themselves are ~100% bigger than those in most cartridge bearings, and wear is thus slower (as long as you service them). In any event, you can adjust them, wheres you can only replace those cartridge ones.

Posted 3 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

muckytee - Member
It's not that, they don't feel tight

You wouldn't know, they might not feel tight even if they are. Have a look inside.

Posted 3 months ago #
Andyhilton - Member

Shame Shimano don't do a six bolt SLX hub

SLX 6 bolt hub

Posted 3 months ago #
Andyhilton - Member

Holy Double Post!

Posted 3 months ago #
muckytee - Member

29er specific that...

they might not feel tight even if they are. Have a look inside.

What shall I see? I mean the way you can tell in a bearing is tight is by talking the wheel out and giving it a spin?

Posted 3 months ago #
stAn-Bad Brains MBC - Member

Genuine question - How can a hub be 29er specific ?

XT rear hub with 6 bolt disc mounting is only £3 dearer than SLX

Posted 3 months ago #
cp - Member

Calling M529 SLX is a bit dubious - surely that would be the M629?! I know it's listed on CRC as SLX but still...

Anyway, I assume 29er specific is probably related to the flanges and the angle of them - the spokes on a 29er are marginally closer to vertical than on a 26er.

Posted 3 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

muckytee - Member
29er specific that...

they might not feel tight even if they are. Have a look inside.
What shall I see? I mean the way you can tell in a bearing is tight is by talking the wheel out and giving it a spin?

You are saying the roughness is dirt etc inside, you'll see it if you open the hub. I expect the hub is slightly tight and you'll see nothing.

Posted 3 months ago #
guymk2 - Member

If you take the hub apart again. Check the bearing seats if they are worn/pitted then use a little emery cloth to make them a little smoother and as said before use higher quality bearings and higher quality grease. Again im not sure on park but that super web stuff is very good.

There is no reason no to use cup and cone, they can just require a little maintenance from time to time. However I have a cup and cone campy hub on my road bike which is 25/30 years old and ive owned it for 3 years and done 10,000ish miles on it. Never even taken it apart and its as smooth as butter, not sure how though, i snapped the axle in the matching rear hub after 3 months of owning it.

Or buy a good used pro2, can be had on eBay/pinkbike/here for not alot.

Posted 3 months ago #
13thfloormonk - Member

HOLD IT!!

I had this exact problem with a non-series M4xxx hub, its not the bearings, its the freehub mechanism jamming in the cold, this results in the freehub 'undoing' itself and preloading the bearings. On my hub the bolt that holds the freehub on had undone so much it had 'become' the bearing race and was all worn down.

Cheap solution is trying to find a replacement freehub, replacing it and making sure the bolt is tight. However there's no guarantee it won't undo itsef again and I had difficulty finding better freehubs that were guaranteed to fit that hub shell.

I would expect SLX/XT etc. to be better.

Re: cup and cone bearings, my 6 month old Hope Pro IIs have noticeably more resistance at the axle than my (much older) cup and cone hubs, and the same could be said for other hope hubs I've owned. It doesn't really bother me, but cup and cone still have a place I reckon, I'm especially glad that my road bike hubs are cup and cone.

Posted 3 months ago #
muckytee - Member

I took my hub apart, here is what I saw:

Non drive side:

Drive side with bearings out:

The drive and Non drive side cones, I removed the grease from the drive side one. Those are the bearing out of the drive side too:

The cones were fine they had not tightened up, the free hub seemed to also be fine.

Posted 3 months ago #
muckytee - Member

bump, just wondering why the difference between the two sides of the hub?

and will I need a new cone?

Posted 3 months ago #