Viewing 33 posts - 1 through 33 (of 33 total)
  • Possible end of Hamas rule in Gaza?
  • tyger
    Free Member

    clicky

    Trouble t'mill me thinks!

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Eh ? Why would it be 'the end of Hamas rule in Gaza' ? ?

    Hamas have apparently given delivered a blow to a small group of al-Qaeda supporters in Gaza,
    and ended their ambitions to declare a 'Islamic Emirate' in Palestine.

    Good for Hamas I reckon.

    eldridge
    Free Member

    Religious people eh?

    Mad as a box of RPGs!

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    tyger
    Free Member

    Hi Che, I was just thinking that as soon as you stamp out one uprising another will rear up hence possible beginning of the end maybe?

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Hi Che

    Please, no need to be so formal – you can call me 'ernie'.

    No, I don't see anything which suggests that Hamas are becoming weaker. On the contrary, the recent incursion by the Zionists in which they treated the the Gaza Strip like a turkey shoot killing men, women, children, UN workers, ambulance drivers etc, strengthen support for Hamas amongst the displaced people of Palestine.

    Which was the complete opposite of the stated aims of the Zionist state. Although we all of course know, that the real reason for the attack on the Palestinian people, was for domestic consumption due to an up and coming general election and rather jittery politicians.

    Yes I reckon Hamas are in a fairly strong position, and they are certainly not in anyway being threaten by either al-Qaeda nor, the corrupt Fatah faction of the PLO and it's useless Palestinian president which have done so little to represent the Palestinian people.

    imho

    kimbers
    Full Member

    surely hamas are assering themselves as fellow fighters in the war on terror and islamic extremism
    as fuct up as that statement is i think they may use it to legitimise themselves and increase their political gravitas
    fwiw fatah seem to be trying to clean up their act

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    surely hamas are assering themselves as fellow fighters in the war on terror

    I don't think Hamas are taking on the Islamic fundamentalists for any reason other than, they consider them to be undemocratic and hostile to the interests of Palestine.

    Hamas might well be an Islamic organisation but they are also highly pragmatic and have no desire to return Palestine to the middle ages – al-Qaeda or the Taliban they are not.

    Whilst their stated aim is the establishment of an Islamic state, I have always believed that they both sufficiently pragmatic and democratic, to accept a secular Palestinian state – although nothing the West does concerning the plight of the Palestinians exactly encourages this progressive attitude.

    In the territories which Hamas controls there is no strict Sharia law and women are not forced to cover there faces. Hamas can be quite ruthless in cracking down on it's enemies, but this should be seen in the context of a people live under siege and under constant attacks from an extremely powerful enemy – a more or less permanent state of war – not exactly the ideal conditions for tolerance and relaxed attitudes.

    This article despite coming from the Jerusalem Post is surprisingly good :

    Jund Ansar Allah group was armed by Fatah operatives, Hamas claims

    kimbers
    Full Member

    while i broadly agree with what you say ernie im not sure i see hamas as a benvelont force for peace and goodness, somewhere between that and ak47 and katushka toting warlords might be nearer to the truth
    but we have made peace with similar in NI and if hamas can give up their quest to see israel wiped out i think we/un/usa should be dealing with one of the few genuine democraticaly elected governments in the arab world rather than divided and corrupt fatah

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Hamas is a political organisation which supports the armed struggle against an occupying force. It aims for the ending of a racist-zionist state, and the establishment of a Palestine state. It is however, prepared to consider the 'twin state' solution, something which I am not entirely comfortable with – for me the destruction of the Zionist state is as justified as the destruction of the Apartheid state was. Still, it is a measure if how pragmatic Hamas are and after all, it is they who have to live with the consequences of the armed struggle and constant Israeli aggression – not me, as I nonchalantly pontificate revolutionary thoughts from the comfort of my war-free zone.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/22/israelandthepalestinians.usa

    tyger
    Free Member

    Which was the complete opposite of the stated aims of the Zionist state. Although we all of course know, that the real reason for the attack on the Palestinian people, was for domestic consumption due to an up and coming general election and rather jittery politicians.

    I might be wrong here but wasn't the reason for the attack because Hamas kept firing rockets into Israel and Israel's response was on Hamas who were sheltering amongst the Palestinian people?

    Pigface
    Free Member

    Some spectacular ignoring of facts by Ernie, this one may run and run.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Tyger- "I might be wrong here but wasn't the reason for the attack because Hamas kept firing rockets into Israel and Israel's response was on Hamas who were sheltering amongst the Palestinian people?"

    Really not that simple. Though some people would have you believe that it is. In general, wildly distrust anyone who tries to break this down into simple answers, it doesn't work- whether it's simple "It's all hamas's fault for attacking israel" or "Israel are mean to palestinians, it's all their fault".

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Not that simple, but pretty simple.

    Hamas were wrong to make fireworks out of toilet roll tubes and sticky-backed plastic.

    The Israelis were wrong to fire tank shells at schools, shoot defenceless civiians holding white flags, and bomb populated areas with white phosphorus.

    Not exactly an even balance of blame, I'd say.

    tyger
    Free Member

    Hamas were wrong to hide behind civilians – more to the point!

    The rockets Hamas used were real military hardware and I'm sure you'd not be so happy if they they were being fired at you DrJ, me thinks.

    roper
    Free Member

    According to the United Nations, the Israeli military campaign left more than 50,000 homes, 800 industrial properties and 200 schools damaged or destroyed, as well as 39 mosques and two churches.

    Palestinians killed during Israeli military offensive in Gaza, 27 Dec to 18 Jan – Palestinian claims followed by Israelis claims:
    Total dead: 1,434 / 1,166
    Fighters: 235 / 710-870
    Non-combatants: 906 / 295-460
    Women: 121 / 49
    Children under 16: 288 / 89

    Israeli dead- 13

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8177831.stm

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    I might be wrong here but wasn't the reason for the attack because Hamas kept firing rockets into Israel and Israel's response was on Hamas who were sheltering amongst the Palestinian people?

    It amazes me how some people here can stomach the level of disproportionality of zionist response to any aggression by its "enemies". Yes, Hamas used military hardware to attack what they feel are "occupied" territories.

    Hamas, have, I feel, a more justified position in armed resistance to occupied territories than, say, the (Provisional)IRA had in the seventies, eighties and nineties (though, in principal I agreed with their position, just not the means in which they chose to get to that position). So, those who feel Israel's response to the rocket attacks was fair game, picture a second if you will, the British Army rolling into West Belfast firing indiscriminately at nationalist housing areas, catholic schools, hospitals. Then, how about the RAF coming in to machine gun fleeing civilians with attack helicopters just to finish off the job…can't have any survivors left uploading footage to YouTube now can we?

    How long do you think the British public would stomach that? Because, that is Israel's response to Hamas…s'ok as long as it's brown people in the middle east I spose innit.

    tyger
    Free Member

    So deadlydarcy, I'm intrigued to know what you would have done had you been Israel?

    roper, I'm not defending what Israel did but I was responding to inaccuracies from previous contributors.

    DrDolittle
    Free Member

    So deadlydarcy, I'm intrigued to know what you would have done had you been Israel?

    I'm not DD, but I have a suggestion.

    Israel, stop stealing people's land, stop treating that land's inhabitants like shit, and give back what you have stolen.

    I hope Israel is listening, and when Mark Regev pops up on this thread to provide the usual lies, I shall be here to shine light on the matter.

    tyger
    Free Member

    Can we get back to discussing Hamas as originally intended.

    DrDolittle
    Free Member

    tyger – Member

    Can we get back to discussing Hamas as originally intended.

    or

    tyger – Member

    So deadlydarcy, I'm intrigued to know what you would have done had you been Israel?

    I thought you wanted suggestions as to what Israel should have done instead of slaughter civilians? You changed your mind sharpish, didn't you? Bible classes not teach you how to debate Facts or something? I suppose not.

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    Blimey! Has a month already passed since the last let's have a sideway's pop at the muslims because that's what jesus tells me to thread?

    DrDolittle
    Free Member

    Has a month already passed…?

    Ah, it's making sense now. Tyger, you don't have your very own "Shroud of Turin" stuffed down the front of your panties at the moment by any chance?

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    you don't have your very own "Shroud of Turin" stuffed down the front of your panties at the moment by any chance

    I really wanted to continue contributing to this thread constructively but I'm laughing too much at that. 😆

    nickc
    Full Member

    Tyger and Muslim threads is the religious equivalent of lanesra's Liverpool threads

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    lanesra's Liverpool threads

    They were great…I almost miss them

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Some spectacular ignoring of facts by Ernie, this one may run and run.

    Surely you mean a spectacular grip of the facts by Ernie ? Facts which are mostly backed up in the articles in the Jerusalem Post and the Guardian which I linked. I reckon my assessment of Hamas's position is both fair, and fairly well informed – as those articles indeed suggest.

    And why would this one 'run and run' ? The whole thread is a bit of a non-issue – there is nothing to suggest the 'possible end of Hamas rule in Gaza'. Indeed the article in Jerusalem Post concludes by saying :

    The death of Mousa and the liquidation of his group is seen a small but significant victory for Hamas. If anything, the showdown in Rafah shows that the Hamas regime remains powerful in the Gaza Strip.

    Hamas will continue to remain popular in Gaza, not only because they not corrupt and ineffective as Fatah/PLO are, but because they have no desire to force Gazans to live a miserable medieval existence where women are stoned to death, and thieves have their hands amputated after show trials.

    .

    wasn't the reason for the attack because Hamas kept firing rockets into Israel

    No it wasn't. As you well know Tyger, Israel broke the ceasefire in an attempt to provoke and create the pretext for an attack on Gaza. During the ceasefire Hamas had not fire any rockets into Israel, and indeed Hamas were prepared to renew and extend the ceasefire.

    However Israel had other ideas – a general election was coming up (the slaughter of Palestinians proved to be very popular with the electorate) and George Bush was about to leave the White House. The Israeli government had to quickly come up with an excuse to attack Gaza – so they created their very own 'Tonkin Gulf Incident'. It seems to have worked very well on you Tyger.

    .

    Hamas who were sheltering amongst the Palestinian people

    As someone who clearly follows the situation in occupied Palestine very closely Tyger, you must be fully aware that not only is the Gaze Strip one of (possibly the most) densely populated place on Earth, crammed as it is with displaced Palestinians who have been driven off their land by American/Russian/British/whatever, Zionists, but that the al-Qassam Brigades are hardly likely to have military bases to operate from.

    Furthermore Tyger, you must also be fully aware that rather than the al-Qassam Brigades cynically using Palestinians civilians as human shields – something which apart from the obvious moral considerations, would make them deeply unpopular amongst the Gazans, it is in fact the IDF which uses Palestinians civilians as human shields.

    The use by the IDF of Palestinians civilians as human shields has long been documented by international human rights organisations. The most common practice is for Israeli soldiers to commandeer a Palestinian house and force it's occupants to remain locked in a downstairs room, thereby reducing the possibility of an attack by Palestinian fighters.

    This claim is backed up some brave Israeli soldiers who are prepared to expose the terrorist tactics of the IDF. Don't believe me ? Well read it in this article by the rather pro-Israeli/anti-Palestinian CNN :

    Report claims Israelis used Palestinians as human shields

    Pigface
    Free Member

    So tell me how Hamas got Fatah out of Gaza? Israels actions during the offensive were a disgusting outrage. Hamas offensive on South Israel is equally as bad. Read the Amnesty report that criticises both sides.

    Not getting into a discussion about which side was worse that is futile. Its just a mess but you cant just rail against one side, with out an objective outlook then the problem will never get solved.

    tyger
    Free Member

    but you cant just rail against one side

    – ah, ernie can LOL!

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    So tell me how Hamas got Fatah out of Gaza?

    By winning an election paid for by the EU.

    Of course I am fully aware that Hamas were not suppose to win the election, despite having been encouraged to participate by both the EU and the US.

    .

    I do not subscribe to the theory that you can never support just one side in a dispute. Neither do I subscribe to the notion that if after extensive moral nit-picking, one side should be found to be wanting in any way at all, then that side cannot under any circumstances be supported.

    During WW2 it was perfectly justifiable to 'rail against one side', whoever you were, and wherever you lived. The fact that both sides were undoubtedly guilty of some questionable practises, including the extensive bombing of civilians, does not morally justify treating both sides equally and even-handedly.

    .

    I believe that treatment and plight of the Palestinian people is one of the greatest miscarriages of justice of modern times. I completely reject the notion that the Palestinian people should pay restitution to the global Zionist community for crimes committed by Europeans against Jews during WW2.

    I also completely reject the argument which suggests that someone such as Dame Shirley Porter, a multi-millionairess and legally exposed, corrupt British politician, has the right to settle on land stolen from Palestinians because of some absurd three thousand year old biblical claim (indeed orthodox Jews reject the existence of the Israeli state pointing out that according to the bible, God banished the Jews to forever wander the world in exile as punishment for their sins) I reject the idea that Dame Shirley Porter needs a Jewish homeland because she would otherwise face persecution.

    And finally, I make absolutely no apology whatsoever for supporting the displaced people of Palestine, as they struggle to achieve justice in the face of relentless opposition from the most powerful nations on earth.

    tyger
    Free Member

    ernie, genuine ask – what to the other Arab states think about the Palestinians? I know that they hate Israel and the Jews in general but I'm sure that I had also read somewhere that actually most Arabs don't like to Palestinian people either that much – in fact that's why no Arab country has offered much in the way of support to them e.g. offering safe haven to them.
    I might have got my wires crossed but before the "posse" descend on me again I would value your take on this.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    what do the other Arab states think about the Palestinians?

    I think that you might be exaggerating my expertise on the subject Tyger. I'm certainly no expert – just someone who strongly abhors injustice. But anyway as I understand it, attitudes towards Palestinians varies greatly amongst Arab states. In some, there is huge sympathy towards them, and in others such as Saudi Arabia, they are frankly despised – seen as the pikeys of the Arab world if you will (accorded to someone very close to me who has extensive experience with the Saudi royal family)

    But all this is frankly academic imo, I see no moral reason why an Arab should be any more sympathetic towards Palestinians than you or me. Unless of course you are a racist, in which case you would of course expect Arabs to be more sympathetic.

    Pigface
    Free Member

    Ernie that is bobbins election or no election you cant deny that Fatah and Hamas fought eachother to the death in 2007 for control of Gaza.Hamas won and now seem to be inprepared to allow anyone else to threaten them.[/url]
    I respect you right to support the Palestinian cause, it is with out a doubt a fair cause and needs to be sorted out. The palestinian people have been shafted by everyone including their own leadership.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Yes Pigface (I take it you're not Jewish then 😯 ) I am aware that Fatah were very unhappy with the result of the elections and that the situation deteriorated into gun battles in which Fatah lost. And as I have already mentioned long before your comment :

    "Hamas can be quite ruthless in cracking down on it's enemies, but this should be seen in the context of a people live under siege and under constant attacks from an extremely powerful enemy – a more or less permanent state of war – not exactly the ideal conditions for tolerance and relaxed attitudes."

    Hamas can indeed be ruthless, which is undoubtedly necessary for their survival. Mossad does have agents in the occupied territories, this is how Israel is able to gather intelligence to carry out their targeted assassinations. If caught, Mossad agents face execution by Hamas – well you wouldn't expect them to build a prison to house them in, would you ? Although I believe that there might have been some rare exceptions where Hamas has shown leniency, such as young girls being blackmailed by Mossad (bad things would happen to their families etc) to become informers. Hamas has powerful enemies, including Fatah, Israel, and as the OP shows, Islamic fundamentalists. Whilst they undoubtedly enjoy a great deal of support amongst the Palestinian population, they still have to fight or perish.

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