With numbers attending massively increased in the last 50 years largely due to ease of air travel, would it be daft to suggest extending the Hajj by a couple of days and effectively staggering the start for pilgrims?

How do you think a proposal to stagger christmas to avoid the rush would go down?

I wouldn’t mind, however comparing the woes of Christmas shoppers against a crush killing over 700 is not the same. This continues to happen. I am sure pilgrims main concern is to stay safe. I am looking at it purely from an aspect of crowd control.

Is partaking in a ceremony at a particular time on a particular day worth the death of 700+?

would it be daft to suggest extending the Hajj by a couple of days and effectively staggering the start for pilgrims?

The date of Hajj is determined by Islamic calendar (known as Hijri calendar or AH), which is a lunar year.[28][29] Every year, the events of Hajj take place in a five-day period, starting on 8 and ending on 12 Dhul-Hijjah, the twelfth and last month of the Islamic calendar…so the answer is no.

Tickets. Run it like Glastonbury or any other festival. It’s the only way to control numbers. You only have to make the journey once in your life right? Well ‘there’s always next year’.

Have you done the Hajj gonzy?
Is the movement through each phase constant throughout the whole day? Everyone is in one place on day one, then somewhere else on day 2 and so on?
I understand the Hajj does sometimes extend by one day?
What information and signage to pilgrims get?

I am curiuos. Interested as I admit to not having a clue.

As mentioned I heard that gates were closed due to royalty.
It must be a crowd control nightmare. So large, extreme heat, many elderly, and an array of different languages.

I have in the past commented that I’ve never met a bright racist.

But in the pub last night the casual UKIPers who prop up the bar every night were commenting on this. In a surreal discussion highlighting how better informed on such matters they are than us, when commenting on world events, we were informed that….

a) Mecca is in India
b) No it isn’t ….. and you really couldn’t make this up…. it’s in Jerusalem

a) Mecca is in India
b) No it isn’t ….. and you really couldn’t make this up…. it’s in Jerusalem

Typical leftie nitpicking. It’s somewhere foreign and it’s full of foreigners, dark ones at that – so obviously somewhere hot.

Does it really matter where exactly it is?

I’ve never met a bright racist

Enoch Powell was proper clever – he could speak 14 languages, 13 of them foreign.

Have you done the Hajj gonzy?

no not yet. house is on the market so once we’ve sold and moved into a bigger house and i’ve cleared all our debts (except the mortgage) then it’ll be the next thing me and the missus will do.

EDIT: there will be a be a bike purchase in between that! 😛

on a serious note though….my mum suffered a stroke that left her partially paralysed so she did her pilgrimage in a wheelchair 9 years ago.
for the elderly its particularly difficult but from a spiritual point of view many go when they’re elderly as they hope that if there is one place in the world they would want to die…it is in Mecca whilst performing Hajj.

I’ve never met a bright racist.

Unfortunately there are plenty of bright racists. To dismiss them all as stupid is playing in to their hands.

James Watson is a good example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson#Provocative_comments

Werner von Braun is another obvious one.

at the risk of being completely wrong (given that I’m a card carrying agnostic) R5L said yesterday that Saudi had limited the visa’s for this year to just 2million!

the stoning ceremony takes place on one day between dawn and midnight, so some 2million foreigners and however many saudis have to pass by an area the size of a football pitch in 18 hours, all throwing stones at a pillar.

one journalist said that some of the pilgrims take it literally so to inflict a bit more pain on the ‘devil’ they don’t throw small pebbles in a symbolic act, they throw rocks – he got hit by a ‘miss’.

still, at least they don’t do crucifixion….oh, wait a minute.

yes they do limit the numbers every year and its a first come first served basis. they also dont allow you to return within 5 years unless you get a special dispensation.
they shouldn’t be throwing rocks…as they should be collecting pebbles from the plains of Muzdalifah. 7 pebbles per jamarat. all 7 must land so usually they recommend you collect at least 49.

still, at least they don’t do crucifixion….oh, wait a minute.

as they do in USA…your point being?

the stoning ceremony takes place on one day between dawn and midnight, so some 2million foreigners and however many saudis have to pass by an area the size of a football pitch in 18 hours, all throwing stones at a pillar.

This incident didn’t happen on or near the bridge but…

The bridge in question is this:

It’s five floors high and was (apparently) designed in conjunction with teams from british and german companies to ease crowd congestion. The plans were made for crowds of 5 million.

The pillars were remodelled into walls to help avoid the stoning accidents you describe.

This isn’t some ramshackle, cobbled together operation, it’s one of the largest mass participation events in the world.

Smudger666 – Member

still, at least they don’t do crucifixion….oh, wait a minute.

I’m sorry, but you were fine until this last comment. I am not a Muslim, but the suggestion that ‘Muslims crucify’ based on the sickening activity of Daesh is tantamount to saying that Italians crucify because it was a method of punishment during the Roman Empire…

Some really sick people are committing some appalling acts in the name of Islam. The vast, vast majority of Muslims either state very clearly that Daesh is wrong (hence the refusal to even call them ISIS), or else they are simply getting on with the task of being human beings.

To imply what you have is, frankly, irresponsible.

There’s no obligation for Muslims to do the pilgrimage but it’s become what Europe 1 described as pilgrimage tourism. Something I can relate to having walked to Compostelle a couple of times.

The crucifixion thing is about the guy who spoke out against the Saudi king as is to be crucified for his words. I wouldn’t go on a pilgrimage through Spain if the king of Spain crucified those critical of him.

but the suggestion that ‘Muslims crucify’ based on the sickening activity of Daesh is tantamount to saying that Italians crucify because it was a method of punishment during the Roman Empire…

I suspect his post referenced this in Saudi Arabia:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34338308

.your point being?

you’re right – it was a daft thing to say in this thread – it was the cynical agnostic in me that got past my filter.

lemonysam – Member
I suspect his post referenced this in Saudi Arabia:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34338308

Ah, I see. I hadn’t considered that possibility. My apologies to Smudger for jumping the gun. 😳

It was but it was the wrong thread in which to bring it up.

t was completely wrong to state that the deaths were “gods will”…it was more likely the result of the closure of 2 of the roads leading to the site

I don’t want to derail the thread but I’m genuinely curious,

If a doctor treats a child with an otherwise potentially terminal condition (I don’t know, cancer and chemo, as a random example), is it considered “god’s will” when the child pulls through, or is it the result of decades of research and a team of medical professionals?

If the former, how is the situation different from this tragedy to make that distinction? If the latter, under what circumstances would something be god’s will? Natural disasters like being struck by lightning, maybe?

Is the Islamic concept of “god” a benevolent god, a vengeful god, or a little from both columns depending on how you behave? Not something I know a great deal about.

Hmm. Might be something for a separate thread?

Well if God is omnipotent then whatever happens, it is his will. It may be hard for us to explain in terms of our subjective experience but God is objective and unknowable. As Good Omens puts it:

You can’t be certain that what’s happening right now isn’t exactly right, from an ineffable point of view.

…and if that fails, Free Will.

It was but it was the wrong thread in which to bring it up.

i get what you’re trying to say and to be fair it does have a certain amount of relevance to the bigger picture but perhaps not at this stage.
i’ve been very critical of the saudi government in the past and continue to do so, so i know what you’re getting at. they impose a very brutal and extreme interpretation of Islam on saudi people, the royal family are very hypocritical and their arrogance and deception is widely recognised within the muslim world, but as the custodians of that which islam holds most dearly, people try not to offend them too much.
they have had a very underhand role in many world issues from 9/11 to ISIS and Syria.
members of their royal family whilst extolling the virtues of islam one one hand, like to travel to europe and the US to have wild parties with lots of coke, hookers and booze involved. the saudi royal family are not the true representation of islam but unfortunately they hold the biggest cards

If a doctor treats a child with an otherwise potentially terminal condition (I don’t know, cancer and chemo, as a random example), is it considered “god’s will” when the child pulls through, or is it the result of decades of research and a team of medical professionals?

If the former, how is the situation different from this tragedy to make that distinction? If the latter, under what circumstances would something be god’s will? Natural disasters like being struck by lightning, maybe?

the use of the phrase in this case is the saudi govt trying to shift the blame from themselves. the use of the phrase during Hajj is more commonly used for say for example when and elderly pilgrim dies whilst there from natural causes or as a result of an illness. when something like this happens its not gods will…its down to human incompetence.
getting hit by lightening would be classed as gods will.
as for the medical analogy…it depends on how spiritual you are. someone who is deeply religious or orthodox would say that it is gods will, a moderate would say its a bit of both, whereas at the other end of the scale they would say that it is down to medical excellence.

but as the custodians of that which islam holds most dearly, people try not to offend them too much.

I would have thought that was precisely all the more reason why they should be denounced and criticized.

Why not criticize the Saudi family which was elevated to power and privilege by British imperialism to serve its needs, and which today continues to serve Western neocolonialism and Zionist expansionism providing vital support in wars and destabilization tactics against other Islamic countries?

@Gonzy thanks for the contributions, I was very sorry to hear of this tragedy and it seems inevitable there will be British victims

@Cougar it’s my understanding that traditionalists all of the religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism would regard God’s Will as being the over riding factor in the recovery and with God giving strength and his blessing to the Doctor in carrying out what is in fact Gods work.

It’s very sad news.

A good friend travelled to mecca for hajj for the first time in their life. Taking his wife and two sisters. Very sad and worrying. I’ve no idea or way of knowing if they’re ok.

I know when they’re due to be back in the UK so can only hope I see them again.

the use of the phrase in this case is the saudi govt trying to shift the blame from themselves. (etc)

Ah, got you. Cool, ta.

@Cougar it’s my understanding that traditionalists all of the religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism would regard God’s Will as being the over riding factor in the recovery and with God giving strength and his blessing to the Doctor in carrying out what is in fact Gods work.

What if the recovery didn’t work? Still god’s will if little Timmy karks it?

Just trying to understand this. The way it appears to me is, if it’s not god’s will but man’s incompetence then we’re cherry-picking favourable outcomes; if it is god’s will then he’s a bit of a git and I’m don’t get why anyone would worship someone/thing like that. This is what I’m struggling to get me head round, have I got it wrong somewhere?

@Cougar: I will happily try to address the questions you raise in a while, but I am just heading out now. When I return, I’ll use your last question to start a new thread.

(That said, there is always the issue that if it is an obvious thread about religion or God, it will end up becoming one of those chaotic ‘discussions’ that I simply can’t keep up with because I don’t type fast enough. )

GMod’s wish is my command

When I return, I’ll use your last question to start a new thread.

That’s probably a good idea – I didn’t want to disrupt this one; though, the horse may have bolted.

tell you what, let me get my Boots De Moderateur:

<mod>
Please drop this here and go back to the original topic; we’ll continue this on a separate thread.
</mod>

Please drop this here and go back to the original topic; we’ll continue this on a separate thread.

And, here it is.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/gods-will