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Interview with Dr. Chris Leatt - the importance of protective equipment for mountain biking
Oct 19, 2021
We sit down with Dr Chris Leatt to discover how a neck brace might prevent a head injury, why we should be concerned about small bumps to the head as well as concussions, and why he wants us to think carefully about our equipment choices when mountain biking.
Read the full feature here: https://singletrackworld.com/2021/10/heads-shoulders-knees-and-toes-leatts-quest-to-protect-them-all/
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0:08
hi i'm hannah from singletrack and i'm
0:10
here with dr chris liatt who is over in
0:13
the uk
0:14
doing uh working your phd so that you
0:17
can be a double doctor yes
0:20
um i i guess uh that's in reality what's
0:23
going to happen but not that that's an
0:24
intention it's it's more about writing
0:27
up a lifetime's worth of work so
0:31
can you explain in in simple terms what
0:34
that lifetime's work is for us
0:37
well and i started off um doing medicine
0:40
um at in south africa actually came and
0:43
worked in the uk for a year
0:45
in doing some general surgery and
0:48
internal medicine went back home was a
0:50
gp for a little while didn't enjoy it at
0:52
all
0:53
um and then i went to a few rotations uh
0:56
orthopedic surgery and mets and
0:58
and trauma surgery
1:00
and then decided to specialise in
1:02
neurosurgery so
1:03
two years into specialising um
1:06
always having had a passion for
1:08
motorcycle racing
1:10
i was at an event not riding because
1:11
i've been on call the day before
1:13
but my young son who was four years old
1:15
at the time was with me
1:17
so we went and watched a race and
1:20
unfortunately somebody who i knew
1:22
fell off and broke his neck and died
1:24
during the event and uh the paramedic
1:27
asked me to come and and assist and we
1:29
really tried to resuscitate uh
1:32
the guy's name is alan selby
1:35
and unfortunately it wasn't successful
1:36
and we had to tell his family and i came
1:38
to the realization that my son who was
1:40
four years old uh was also going to be
1:43
at risk of breaking his neck
1:45
um it turns out that alan actually did
1:47
break his neck and that was his cause of
1:49
death and
1:50
um
1:51
he he's essentially led to the
1:54
development of this company so i went
1:56
out and looked for neck protection
1:58
couldn't find any
1:59
um and the more i looked the more i
2:02
wondered why there wasn't anything on
2:03
the market and it should have been
2:05
apparent to me that that was going to
2:06
take a lot of development work to
2:07
actually uh bring it to fruition
2:10
um but that's what i did so i really
2:12
started off with how people break their
2:14
necks and what the mechanism of
2:15
causation was and and what sort of
2:17
injuries were apparent in two world
2:19
sports and whether there was anything
2:21
you could do to mitigate them
2:23
um and so i came up with this thesis
2:25
which is essentially an alternative low
2:27
pass so instead of all the force going
2:29
down your neck if you fall in your head
2:31
some of the force goes somewhere else
2:33
and because not all the forces gone down
2:35
your your your neck
2:37
um the likelihood of an injury is
2:39
actually
2:40
decreased so if you think about a high
2:42
jump
2:42
if you raise their bar just a little bit
2:44
higher nobody gets over the over the
2:46
jump anymore
2:47
and essentially by taking off about 20
2:50
of the force going down your neck the
2:52
threshold for injury is almost
2:54
unattainable so
2:56
the typical accident actually doesn't
2:57
produce a broken neck
2:59
so that's the kind of theory behind the
3:01
brace it takes energy that would have
3:03
gone down your neck and redistributes it
3:05
to other parts of your body in a safe
3:06
way so a lot of work went into first of
3:09
all testing the brace and testing the
3:11
thesis but also that we weren't causing
3:13
other injuries as a result of of
3:15
changing you know all the biokinetics
3:17
and um and uh it's something you've got
3:20
to be aware of when you when you splint
3:22
a joint or when you
3:23
create an alternative load path or when
3:25
you put a helmet on or when you do
3:27
anything you you are changing
3:29
uh the body's interaction with space and
3:31
and objects and and so you need to be
3:33
careful that you're not causing more
3:35
harm so a lot of the work went into
3:37
ensuring we were causing more harm as
3:39
well as is this brace effective
3:41
and that's really where it started for
3:43
me and stopped my my son from riding
3:45
until it was developed and now you can
3:47
ride again
3:48
okay so
3:50
you started with a neck brace which i
3:52
have here as a prop
3:54
um
3:55
so this is a
3:56
latest latest kind of design one
3:59
can you explain because
4:02
i don't see that many of them around
4:03
really this is been in downhill racing a
4:06
lot more but explain how
4:08
that
4:10
works
4:11
with the helmet to to prevent not just a
4:15
spinal injury but also they prevent
4:16
concussion too don't they well um
4:19
that's that's the uh that's the subject
4:22
of my phd and um and a lot of work is
4:25
going into proving that so you know to
4:27
make an assertion you know you've you've
4:29
um you've got to do a lot of testing and
4:31
uh and and that's what i'm busy with at
4:34
the moment so we know that the neck
4:35
brace is highly effective at reducing uh
4:37
neck injuries
4:38
uh the the data published
4:41
in motorcycle not bicycle but
4:44
the mechanism of fall is very similar
4:48
is is the 10-year study that was done by
4:50
ems action sports which showed
4:53
about
4:54
10 000 riders over about ten years half
4:56
worth of breasts and i'm rounding up uh
4:59
and half without a brace um and the
5:01
reduction in injuries there was
5:03
eighty-nine percent least likely to
5:04
break your neck with a neck brace on uh
5:07
sixty-nine percent less likely to die of
5:09
a spinal injury seventy-six percent less
5:11
likely to have a non-critical cervical
5:13
spine injury so that we know the brace
5:16
uh is is effective um in in in terms of
5:20
operation so how that actually works if
5:22
you can imagine
5:24
i'm wearing a crash helmet
5:26
and what's sometimes misunderstood is
5:28
that
5:29
um if you fall off and land on your head
5:31
it's actually the weight of your torso
5:33
and it's the inertia of your your the
5:35
rest of your body so you're landing
5:36
upside down and you're loading your head
5:39
by the
5:40
inertia of of your body
5:43
striking the ground and essentially your
5:45
head will stop on for example the ground
5:48
and then the force will be transferred
5:50
via the helmet if you're wearing a
5:52
helmet to your skull to your skull base
5:54
to your neck and then down to the rest
5:56
of your body
5:57
so
5:58
let's take a typical accident where you
5:59
go over the handlebars so you may land
6:02
on the front part of your helmet
6:04
and that force is then transferred
6:07
given the weight of your body through
6:08
your neck
6:10
so
6:10
a lot of the injuries we see from
6:12
two-wheeled sports unlike for example
6:15
car racing where you restrained in the
6:17
seat
6:17
is compression
6:19
injury so it's compression with
6:21
hyperextension
6:23
neck going backwards or hyperflexion
6:24
going forwards or sideways so it's
6:26
normally a combined element of
6:29
compressive force with movement
6:33
if you're wearing a neck brace and uh
6:37
so i'm wearing the neck brace around my
6:38
head
6:41
and now i fall and i land on my head
6:44
my helmet is going to rotate because
6:46
your head always wants to escape the
6:47
impact primarily and it's actually quite
6:49
a good thing that there's some movement
6:51
that's why the neck brace is not
6:52
connected to the helmet right
6:54
so the head will the head will and the
6:56
helmet will move and at some point in
6:58
time it'll touch the brace
7:00
so i've got the
7:02
the brace off
7:06
my helmet rotates backwards
7:09
and impacts the brace
7:11
and now what i'm doing is i'm
7:13
transferring all that load onto the
7:14
brace well not all the load about 20 of
7:17
the load goes into the brace but that
7:19
decreases the threshold for injury and
7:22
that's how we see a reduction now as i
7:24
mentioned earlier what we've got to be
7:25
careful of is that we don't cause other
7:27
injuries whilst wearing the neck brace
7:29
so
7:30
uh the neck brace is designed to
7:32
fracture at the back
7:34
um and it'll fracture at a small
7:37
percentage of the force required to
7:38
break your back
7:39
so it's been engineered to be a stable
7:42
platform
7:44
whilst it's reducing neck forces and if
7:47
it becomes too big and there's any risk
7:49
of it breaking your back it'll fracture
7:51
and it'll just rotate out the way
7:54
same with the front there's a fracture
7:55
zone built inside of the front
7:57
and if the force is large enough it'll
7:59
flex to a point and then fracture
8:01
and this we've demonstrated numerous
8:03
times in the lab and it's part of our
8:04
in-house testing that if we if we launch
8:07
a new model of brace it's going to
8:08
behave the same way as as the old
8:11
generation braces used to behave of
8:12
course they're lighter they've got more
8:14
adjustment now
8:15
but essentially that's why why the neck
8:17
brace works it unloads the neck
8:20
um and uh
8:22
and it's
8:23
and it's effective in that way now what
8:25
we've also
8:28
been fascinated to see the actual
8:29
numbers
8:30
is that
8:32
we believe that
8:33
the essentially three ways you can break
8:35
your collarbone one is a fallen
8:37
ostriched arm and the force is
8:39
transmitted up your arm and into your
8:41
collarbone uh the second way is a fall
8:43
directly onto your shoulder
8:45
and the third way is if your helmet room
8:46
strikes your collarbone oh wow you
8:49
really got to twist your neck to get
8:50
that fire and we thought that
8:52
that type of injury was the sm the
8:54
smallest in percentage was um
8:56
uh that you know a fall in the arm was
8:59
was quite common
9:00
and then we had a lot of people saying
9:02
well you know i broke my collarbone um
9:06
and it's the neck brace that did it
9:08
um
9:09
but at least i'm i'm you know my neck is
9:11
fine
9:13
uh and then the ems action sports study
9:15
studied this phenomenon as well almost
9:17
ten thousand riders half with half
9:18
without a brace and therefore i found a
9:20
45 reduction in collar bone injuries
9:23
wearing a neck brace
9:25
and because of the homogram
9:28
not being able to strike
9:30
the collar bone because we've got this
9:32
what we call
9:33
clavicle relief aerial collar bone cut
9:35
out so the helmet this room is now
9:37
striking the neck brace
9:39
and
9:40
not striking the collarbone
9:42
and it's
9:43
often people would say you know i fell
9:44
off and i broke my collarbone
9:46
was it the necklace of play well it was
9:48
the neck brace the play would have been
9:49
on the opposite side of your fore
9:51
because if i fall on my left or my right
9:54
shoulder my head is going to go in the
9:56
opposite direction and if it's the
9:57
helmet drum strike striking it or
9:59
pushing the brace onto it you'd have the
10:01
fracture on the opposite side and that's
10:03
where we saw the reduction of
10:05
collar bone injuries using a neck brace
10:07
so so the people that are saying that
10:09
they have broken their collar bone
10:11
because of the neck brace they're
10:12
actually they'd have broken it anyway
10:14
yes and they typically broke it on the
10:15
same side as they fell
10:17
whereas if it was related to a neck
10:19
brace it would have been the opposite
10:20
side
10:21
uh also other factors like down driven
10:23
fractures rather than up driven
10:25
fractures but um
10:26
but you know the numbers came out in
10:28
this ems study and once again it's a
10:30
it's a motorcycle study however
10:33
um
10:34
you know the ways in which you fall the
10:35
fact that you falling with compression
10:38
and head movement that you you know
10:39
you're wearing a helmet and you're not
10:41
restrained uh the the injury patterns
10:44
are very similar between bicycle and in
10:45
my motorcycle
10:49
so
10:50
i guess lots of people
10:52
would think to wear something like this
10:55
because they'd be worried about the
10:56
spinal injury but you also think that
10:59
this could protect your brain too is
11:01
that right absolutely so um this is the
11:04
subject of my my work at the moment and
11:06
essentially you know we know the neck
11:07
brace is effective against uh against
11:10
neck injuries because all the lab
11:11
testing and actually rewire
11:13
life data is now showing that it is
11:15
effective we know it's effective against
11:17
collarbone injuries but both in the lab
11:19
we've got instrumental dummies with
11:20
collar bones and in the real real world
11:23
we're seeing a reduction in collar bone
11:24
injuries but if you consider that if you
11:27
hit your head
11:29
a few things happen one is that you
11:31
decelerate your head very suddenly
11:34
and that's what and that's why helmets
11:36
are actually effective what a helmet is
11:38
doing is besides having offering a hard
11:40
shell and abrasion resistance and and
11:42
help you not fracturing your head
11:44
it's got eps and then arches turbines in
11:47
as well
11:48
and
11:49
that will crush if the impact is hard
11:51
enough
11:52
so you're increasing the distance of the
11:54
way which the head can decelerate
11:57
but now you have a body and a helmet
12:01
the the head was traveling in space and
12:04
decelerated suddenly but it then starts
12:07
moving relative to the torso
12:09
so you bang your head and then your head
12:11
whips backwards it's got to stop
12:12
somewhere you can either stop on your
12:14
back or on your chest or it stops in
12:16
space somehow but we believe with the
12:19
neck brace on that by stopping it
12:21
earlier
12:22
the secondary acceleration deceleration
12:24
of the head is reduced
12:26
and we also know that
12:28
by wearing a crash helmet
12:30
you radically reduce the the primary
12:33
impact to the head but you may
12:35
increase the duration the head is
12:37
exposed to that
12:38
acceleration
12:40
and these things are important
12:42
in terms of
12:44
studying injuries that we know that peak
12:47
acceleration is important but also
12:49
duration is important so but once again
12:51
by putting a
12:53
helmet on somebody's head you are
12:55
significantly reducing the the primary
12:58
acceleration but you're also prolonging
13:00
it
13:01
and then the helmet moves relative to
13:02
the torso
13:04
and what our bodies don't like is more
13:06
than one simultaneous impact so
13:09
for example uh if you hit your head
13:11
ready hard
13:12
and you have a lot of inflammation
13:14
maybe you have concurrent injuries
13:16
you've got a
13:17
you know a polytrauma and and you've got
13:20
blood loss now you've got low blood
13:21
pressure plus a head injury so it's it's
13:24
like a double hit to the body and the
13:26
recovery is is uh is significantly
13:29
impaired by having more than one insult
13:32
so the work now really is to understand
13:35
more than one insult
13:36
whilst you're using a helmet
13:39
okay so
13:41
you're you're investigating at the
13:43
moment that relationship between the
13:45
helmet and the neck brace and the
13:47
different types of
13:50
length of injury that you could have but
13:52
i think people people in the mountain
13:54
bike worlds
13:55
know that if you hit your head and you
13:57
see stars and then you need some time
14:00
off the bike but those smaller injuries
14:03
the frequent ones that you you're like
14:06
oh it was a bit uncomfortable but you
14:08
don't black out whatever i think people
14:09
are just learning that those are bad too
14:12
yeah absolutely so i mean i think you
14:14
know
14:15
a few years ago concussion protocols
14:17
were not
14:18
not in existence
14:19
um and it was kind of left up to the
14:22
person to
14:23
to make their own interpretation of how
14:24
long they should be
14:26
out of the sport at risk having another
14:28
head injury and also it was believed to
14:30
be a threshold you know at a certain
14:33
number of g 70g for example the
14:36
likelihood of concussion was high
14:38
and if you had a significant impact like
14:40
that
14:41
the concussion protocols came in place
14:43
saying you need to be off
14:45
the risk of being banged on the head
14:46
again because we know that for every
14:49
subsequent
14:50
concussion you have your long-term
14:52
prognosis is not as good and there are a
14:54
lot of degenerative
14:56
brain
14:57
syndromes that are related to hitting
14:58
your head often
15:00
but the national football league in the
15:02
in the us has shown us that you can have
15:05
non-concussive head impacts
15:07
multiple of them during a season for
15:09
example and still have organic brain
15:12
disease or damage
15:13
um and that's being studied more
15:15
frequently now and of course
15:17
they've got accelerometers in the in the
15:19
helmets uh they can record this over a
15:21
long period of time
15:23
uh then the new techniques in terms of
15:25
scanning the brain and certain tracks
15:26
and and
15:28
anatomical areas in the brain to
15:29
understand what the long-term
15:31
consequence of repeated impacts is and
15:35
the data and the studies seem to show
15:37
that
15:38
you don't actually have to have a
15:40
diagnosed concussion but have multiple
15:43
impacts and you can still have uh brain
15:45
damage over time
15:47
and those multiple impacts could they
15:49
will they be ones that you notice or
15:51
they just like
15:53
you'd pass them off no you you i mean
15:55
you would you would have hit your head
15:56
and you certainly know that you you
15:58
bumped your head but you know you may
16:00
not see stars you you you may not have a
16:03
headache for you know hours afterwards
16:05
um
16:06
you know concussion can affect lots of
16:08
things your balance your vision
16:10
so um it's a significant impact but not
16:12
one significant enough to be called a
16:14
concussion
16:16
there's a lot to worry about
16:18
if you're a mountain bike rider so you
16:21
could wear a helmet you could wear a
16:24
neck brace
16:25
and there was something else you said
16:26
earlier that you could wear a gum shield
16:28
and that could also be effective so um
16:31
yeah this is really exciting at the
16:33
moment is the ability to instrument
16:36
uh things that we commonly use like
16:38
helmets
16:39
with accelerometers and gyroscopes and
16:41
actually measure how
16:44
how much uh impact or energy the hell
16:46
the head's been exposed to over time
16:49
and one of the ways of of
16:51
carrying something that's actually very
16:53
close to the center of your mass of your
16:55
head is a gum god
16:57
and by wearing a gum guard
17:00
you you can
17:02
do two things you can measure how much
17:05
impact your your head is uh exposed to
17:08
but also there seems to be some evidence
17:10
that by putting a gum guard in place and
17:12
splinting your temper mandibular joint
17:14
one is that a blow to your mandible is
17:16
less likely to cause a concussion
17:19
and there's also some proprioceptive
17:21
benefits from wearing a gum guard your
17:23
balance in certain instances is improved
17:26
so
17:27
now there's a lot of exciting things
17:28
going on at the moment and being able to
17:30
record the data uh
17:32
previously
17:33
it was it was not possible um but to
17:37
have such a small accelerometer with
17:39
power in a gun guard and be able to wear
17:41
it and measure it same as helmets
17:45
in in uh
17:46
nfl now a coach can call a player off
17:49
the field if he believes uh that he's
17:51
had a significant enough impact it might
17:54
not be a you know diagnosed concussion
17:57
uh but he's got a cell phone with an app
17:58
on it and he's watching the exposure of
18:00
the the player's head to to trauma
18:03
um i'm not for one minute saying we
18:06
should stop riding because we've just
18:07
been riding
18:08
um but you know there's i think it's all
18:11
about making a a informed balanced
18:13
decision about
18:15
you know i've got to i've got to go to
18:16
work on monday so how do i have fun and
18:18
still get to work on monday
18:20
so
18:21
we've seen in the mountain bike world
18:23
lots of
18:24
uh
18:25
electronic
18:26
things finding their way and we've got
18:28
shifting we've got tire pressure sensors
18:31
so
18:32
you're using data from other sports for
18:34
your studies at the moment are we going
18:36
to see this kind of electronic
18:37
monitoring stuff coming into mountain
18:39
biking i think we definitely are and
18:41
there are some helmet manufacturers and
18:43
uh
18:44
and telemetry systems that are already
18:46
out there but in order to to really
18:49
understand you've got to have the
18:51
numbers are going to be
18:52
statistically significant so we've got
18:54
to have enough people using it and you
18:56
know a properly designed study is also
18:58
required so if you take a a series like
19:01
you know ews or a defined series where
19:06
every single incident is recorded
19:09
and the data's fed back you can really
19:10
make some assumptions about certain
19:12
things
19:13
and uh and of course concussion
19:16
is one of them
19:18
but i think we're definitely moving in
19:19
that direction and i think we'll
19:21
definitely see better studies more data
19:23
in the future
19:25
so it seems kind of foreseeable that
19:28
that down the line
19:29
we will have our own app in our own
19:32
phones to be able to go ah yeah that was
19:34
a big crash that i need some time out
19:36
absolutely
19:37
i think that's definitely coming and it
19:38
has some other advantages as well um i
19:41
mean it's got performance advantages you
19:43
know if you if you're carrying an
19:44
account and a gyroscope in your helmet
19:47
um
19:48
you know one can see a time where where
19:50
that data is going to find its way onto
19:52
strava you know how high did i jump or
19:54
what what did i do
19:55
how hard did i hit my head how big is my
19:57
crash so we hope you don't start a
19:58
competition to see how hard you can hit
20:00
your head or how many times you can hit
20:02
your head um but i definitely think it's
20:04
it's uh it's coming in the future
20:06
i can really see that the cumulative
20:09
like how how many jesus my head had
20:11
across the last six months would be
20:14
super useful information to to have and
20:16
just
20:17
especially for people on pro teams i can
20:19
imagine it could really change up the
20:22
the like the protocols at pro level
20:25
absolutely i think that's that's uh
20:27
that's what it will lead to is is
20:28
hopefully protocols means you know if
20:31
this happens and this happens you know
20:33
we know we have a defined way of dealing
20:35
with it
20:36
and of course you know protection in
20:38
athletes
20:39
nobody wants to wear protection i mean
20:41
you don't want to go out
20:42
we ride because we enjoy the freedom and
20:44
we enjoy the speed you don't want to
20:46
it's not not our natural interest to
20:48
keep on putting more and more protection
20:50
on but if you consider an athlete in
20:52
their their career
20:54
um you know you may be doing well in the
20:56
season you have a
20:57
significant injury there goes the
20:59
championship for the year you know you
21:00
may have broken just a collarbone but
21:02
it's enough to put you out for the
21:03
season
21:05
and that affects the sponsors it affects
21:06
your longevity in the sport
21:08
um so
21:10
once again i mean when one doesn't want
21:12
to fear manga we still enjoy going out
21:14
and
21:14
and riding but
21:16
i think it's finding that balance
21:18
between protection and and fun
21:21
so uh i'll i'll take the neck brace off
21:23
you say you've got less less to hold on
21:25
to there but um
21:27
so at the moment this kind of helmet
21:30
with the removable chin bag is
21:33
growing in popularity among us mortal
21:35
riders um is there any benefit apart
21:39
from to your dental bill to having a
21:42
full face on as opposed to an open face
21:45
when it comes to
21:46
head injuries
21:48
so i mean a few things really one is of
21:50
course facial injuries and so not just
21:53
teeth but also
21:54
facial injuries
21:55
and obviously the advantage here is that
21:57
you can cycle uphill with it with it
21:59
often you can put it on going going
22:01
downhill um
22:03
it uh
22:04
it so it will protect you against uh
22:07
facial injuries also it is it's a
22:09
greater distance to decelerate so um
22:13
the the more the the chin guard will
22:15
flex and move and absorb energy the less
22:17
energy that's going to go to your head
22:19
so the it'll reduce reduce not just
22:22
the the facial injuries but
22:25
but but head injuries as well
22:27
um
22:28
so
22:29
yeah i mean i think it's it's a good
22:31
compromise between
22:32
weight uh protection and the freedom of
22:35
cycling uphills
22:37
and a neck brace only would work with a
22:39
full face it wouldn't work with a half
22:41
shell so a neck brace actually would
22:43
work with a hard shell a half shell um
22:46
we we advise it against it because we
22:49
think that the the full face helmet
22:51
if you if you um if you're doing a
22:53
significant downhill section and the the
22:55
risk of going over the handlebars is
22:57
significant enough why not add extra
22:59
potential
23:00
the the the underside of the
23:02
the helmet is designed designed to
23:04
interact with the top side of the neck
23:06
brace your mandible of course your chin
23:09
will interact with the neck brace and it
23:11
is a padded surface
23:13
and we've looked at how much energy it
23:15
takes to fracture your mandible versus
23:17
to stop your head and it's safe to ride
23:19
without a full face helmet
23:22
but i think uh you know logic will
23:24
dictate it's better to wear
23:26
a full face helmet if you can
23:28
so
23:29
knee pads come on and elbow pads come in
23:32
the kind of
23:34
these are going to stop you really
23:36
hurting yourself if you really crash and
23:38
then you get the kind of oh you can
23:39
pedal in them and they'll they'll stop
23:41
things a bit is
23:43
is the neck brace
23:44
it needs to be like that
23:46
or it's not worth having is there a is
23:48
there a comfortable everyday rider
23:50
version of a neck brace that's
23:52
conceivable no and there's some quite
23:54
alarming things that are uh not to
23:56
mention names but uh designs that are
23:58
emerging in in motorcycle racing in the
24:01
us
24:02
where
24:03
um
24:04
you just remove a component of the neck
24:06
brace and say well it's more comfortable
24:08
to wear
24:09
um
24:11
you know
24:11
it's it's it's that shape for a reason
24:14
and if you look at the first neck brace
24:16
and and the current neck braces and
24:18
you know whether it's an entry level
24:20
version or one that's full of
24:21
adjustability and carbon fiber and light
24:24
all the neck presses have the same
24:25
features it has to be that shape to work
24:27
and that's why over time it hasn't got
24:30
you know in terms of its its geometry it
24:32
hasn't got smaller it's got lighter and
24:35
more adjustability uh and more
24:37
ergonomically styled and more
24:38
comfortable to wear
24:40
but the basic dimensions haven't changed
24:42
because that's the dimensions you need
24:43
for example if you can put your helmet
24:46
over a neck brace
24:47
then the neck brace can act as a fulcrum
24:50
so you can actually
24:53
bend your helmet around and your neck
24:54
around the neck brace and in certain
24:56
instances we've demonstrated in the lab
24:58
that the rear platform of a neck brace
25:02
is is this specific shape and size
25:05
to stop your head from going over the
25:07
back so it has a lip that stops your
25:09
head from going over the back because if
25:11
your head could go over the back
25:13
you can actually increase the torque or
25:14
bending moments on your neck in a
25:17
rearward extension
25:18
also this lip interesting enough is
25:20
designed to fracture
25:22
through this
25:23
area so that if you land flat on your
25:26
back in this way this will move out of
25:29
the way so you you continue to lay flat
25:31
you're not having the neck brace pushing
25:33
into the back of your neck
25:34
but the shape of the neck brace is
25:37
really important and it can't really
25:39
change a lot
25:41
so we're not
25:43
likely then to see people racing in ews
25:46
where they've got to do a load of
25:47
pedaling up down with a net brace
25:49
they're going to have to focus on the
25:51
technology that's in the helmet
25:53
yeah i mean i think they're catering for
25:54
for you know two different things um and
25:57
essentially your risk profile goes up
26:00
with downhill clearly um
26:02
you know one of the in fact one of the
26:04
most dangerous areas for the human neck
26:06
is a sport like it is horse riding so
26:09
you're falling at relatively slow speeds
26:12
or for a relatively high distance into a
26:14
relatively soft medium because there
26:16
your head stops in sand for example it
26:19
does quite slight so sliding is really
26:21
good if you look at the number of
26:23
neck injuries that that riders have in
26:24
motor gp it's very small in motocross
26:27
it's higher and that's because
26:29
of low speed and landing in a soft
26:32
medium your head stops
26:34
so your your neck is exposed to a
26:36
loading for a long period of time rather
26:38
than just sliding out the way
26:40
so much like a bicycle and and uh
26:43
indira and downhill
26:45
you know it's it's all about risk
26:47
management um and if there's a risk of
26:49
going over the bars at speed downhill
26:52
particularly on a sandy track or
26:54
somewhere where your head's going to
26:55
stop against rocks or other obstacles um
26:59
you know your risk of neck injury is
27:01
going to be decreased
27:03
i'll look more kindly on rocks than in
27:04
future they're better for me in some
27:07
circumstances
27:08
so we are all wearing helmets i mean
27:12
it's
27:13
in the mountain bike community
27:15
riding off-road without helmet is it's
27:17
pretty much seen as
27:19
madness yeah
27:21
um so
27:23
but a lot of us are still riding in a
27:25
half shell so you've got some turbine
27:27
technology in there haven't you why the
27:30
turbine technology so turbines do two
27:33
things um so that the little the little
27:35
blue
27:37
little blue circular discs inside
27:40
um they do do two things we were talking
27:42
earlier about concussion
27:44
and
27:46
we've spoken about lower impact
27:48
magnitude but over a longer period of
27:50
time so what
27:52
eps which is typically the
27:54
energy absorbing component of a of a
27:56
crash on the the eps foam liner in a in
28:00
a helmet is what will crush and crumple
28:03
to protect your head
28:05
but it requires a lot of force to do
28:07
that
28:08
so helmets
28:09
are tested over a wide spectrum of
28:12
impact velocities three and a half
28:14
meters per second and now up uh up to
28:17
motocross helmets nine meters a second
28:20
um so it's a it's a it's a big range and
28:22
therefore the eps has to be quite stiff
28:25
otherwise it's not going to pass a high
28:27
impact velocity standard so what the
28:29
turbine does is the eps doesn't change
28:32
but the turbine offers lower speed
28:34
damping which might sound like i'm
28:36
trying to look after a low speed impact
28:39
and a higher speed impact but you're
28:40
more likely to have repeated lower speed
28:43
insults to your head over a period of
28:45
time
28:46
um and so low speed linear damping and
28:49
it's just a normal blow to your head is
28:51
what the turbines do well with and then
28:54
the turbines difficult to see in this
28:56
instance but they're displaceable
28:59
sideways
29:00
so they move around so once once the
29:02
helmet is on your head and strapped onto
29:04
your head if you have a tangential blow
29:06
or rotation of the helmet
29:08
um the turbines will mitigate that
29:10
rotation so
29:12
in the in the early days and a lot of
29:14
the head injury criteria in the
29:15
beginning looked at only only linear
29:20
impacts in other words you stop your
29:22
head against a surface and your brain
29:26
decelerates but now it's known that
29:28
rotational acceleration you require a
29:30
lot less rotational acceleration
29:33
a smaller amount of deceleration to
29:36
produce a significant brain injury
29:38
that's the kind of sideways glancing
29:40
block correct that causes the head to
29:42
rotate
29:42
so um
29:44
this is why you know
29:46
technologies like mips and the turbines
29:48
are in existence knives that you we
29:51
we're catching for rotational
29:53
acceleration where you need less
29:54
acceleration to produce a brain injury
29:57
so you mentioned mips there what's the
29:59
difference between the mips and the
30:00
turbine so the mips on the turbine
30:03
essentially do the same thing in terms
30:04
of protecting against rotation they're
30:07
surfaces that slide or move
30:09
in a tangential direction
30:11
and the advantage of the turbine over
30:13
the mips is that
30:15
mips is only for rotation whereas the
30:17
turbine works for low speed linear
30:19
damping as well as rotation so it has
30:21
the squish in it as well squish and the
30:23
move
30:24
aha
30:25
right that makes sense yeah cool
30:27
so uh
30:29
because of the
30:31
testing requirements that there are and
30:33
the
30:34
uh so you need the eps we're not going
30:36
to have
30:36
nice light molded
30:39
d3o swimming caps or anything like that
30:41
in future um no so i you know
30:44
the standards are there and thankfully a
30:47
lot of the standards have evolved so
30:48
there was a period of time when
30:50
when helmets you know there was
30:52
there was snell and dot helmet standards
30:54
in the motorcycle uh
30:56
arena and they just didn't evolve for a
30:58
long period of time and of course what
31:00
manufacturers do is they have to pass
31:02
the standards
31:03
so they've got to make a helmet that
31:04
will pass a standard
31:06
but now
31:07
with understanding of different impact
31:09
velocities and how important rotational
31:11
acceleration is
31:13
in preventing injury the standards are
31:16
evolving both bicycle and motorcycle
31:19
standards are evolving and that's a
31:20
really good thing because it makes
31:22
better helmets so helmets now have
31:25
turbines mips um maybe
31:28
more than one density of eps that try to
31:30
cater for a wider spectrum of injuries
31:32
because we don't just uh injure our
31:35
brains with one very hard knock we can
31:37
injure our brains with lots of smaller
31:39
knocks
31:40
so from a consumer's point of view
31:43
there's a lot of different technologies
31:45
out there at the moment with different
31:47
claims
31:48
all quite bold
31:49
um
31:50
but we don't have the same
31:53
star rating that they do like in
31:54
american football now is is that
31:57
something that you think is coming to
31:58
mountain biking i i think it will come
32:01
over a period of time
32:02
um of course the the other dynamic is
32:05
that you've
32:07
you've got to be sensible in other words
32:10
you can produce an extremely good helmet
32:12
in terms of impact mitigation
32:14
it would look like a golf ball we would
32:16
have dimples like a golf ball it would
32:18
be shaped like a golf ball uh but who's
32:20
going to wear a golf ball in their head
32:22
so we need venting for example as soon
32:24
as you put venting in a helmet
32:26
if you had a a a stone or something
32:29
impact the head and catch one of the
32:31
vents it's going to cause your helmet to
32:33
rotate so it's not a smooth slide but
32:36
smooth sliding is really good that's why
32:37
golf ball would be good
32:39
um so now we've added a feature that we
32:42
need to ride because you can't ride
32:45
mountain biking with no ventilation uh
32:47
you need ventilation um so we've changed
32:50
the dynamics so we need to change the
32:52
the helmet at the same time what can we
32:54
do to mitigate the fact that we have not
32:56
a uniform round shape but we have
32:59
something that is
33:01
aesthetically pleasing cooling and
33:03
protective and hence you know
33:05
changes to the comfort liner changes to
33:08
putting turbines in
33:10
and and these help mitigate the effects
33:13
so
33:14
as as i said uh right in the in the
33:18
beginning of my journey in terms of neck
33:20
braces if
33:22
you've got to show people what's good
33:24
for them because there's a huge amount
33:26
of information you've got to try and
33:28
consolidate it it's not an easy task
33:31
um
33:32
but if you make the most protective
33:35
piece of safety equipment but it's
33:36
unwearable nobody's gonna wear it if you
33:39
make something that's wearable and
33:40
really protective but it looks
33:43
absolutely terrible and nobody wants to
33:44
wear it it's not gonna get worn and
33:46
ultimately unless people are wearing it
33:48
it's not protecting people
33:50
so it's a balance we need to find this
33:52
balance between
33:53
helmets that are cool helmets that we
33:55
want to wear that we can you know the
33:57
apertures are big enough for the for for
33:59
your glasses or goggles or whatever you
34:01
want to wear um
34:03
but they've also got to be protective
34:04
and that's why i think to create a
34:06
standard is actually quite a tricky
34:08
thing
34:09
yes you it's it's easy to look at uh the
34:11
objective data in terms of
34:14
head impacts and how well a helmet
34:16
mitigated but the best performing helmet
34:18
may not be the helmet that people choose
34:20
to wear
34:21
it's all about balance
34:24
so
34:25
we're compromising our own safety by
34:27
wanting to look cool then
34:30
in part yes um
34:32
and just being pragmatic i mean how do
34:34
you write a helmet with no events in it
34:35
events add a risk factor to helmets
34:39
sure so
34:40
uh
34:41
you've now got a complete range of of
34:45
kit you can have
34:47
the clothing the shoes
34:49
those aren't safety elements as such are
34:51
they that that's just part of the
34:52
package that makes something that goes
34:55
with the helmet that maybe then people
34:56
want to wear their helmet is that how it
34:57
works yes so um i mean we we are now
35:00
proudly a head-to-toe brand in both
35:02
bicycle and and off-road motorcycle and
35:04
uh that's been you know 15 years in the
35:07
coming it's been a lot of hard work
35:09
um but i think it's important it
35:10
supports the brand and supports the
35:12
safety uh element and if people aspire
35:15
to have uh you know
35:18
a
35:19
piece of apparel or a piece of clothing
35:21
without a name in it they're more likely
35:22
to wear a neck brace they're more likely
35:24
to wear a helmet with a turbine in
35:26
they're more likely to wear a knee brace
35:27
they're more likely to wear protective
35:29
boots if it's motocross for example
35:31
so you know i think it's when we're a
35:33
single product uh
35:35
company it's quite a risky place to be
35:37
because if something happens to their
35:38
product category you know that's the end
35:40
of the the company but having head to
35:43
toe supports the brand and supports the
35:45
company and
35:46
right in the beginning we were very sort
35:48
of tech and solution focused
35:50
uh it was all about
35:52
safety and and uh you know injury
35:54
mitigation
35:56
not terribly cool you know and now
35:58
people are actually seeking us out for
36:00
our apparel because it is cool and we
36:02
try and do
36:04
um things with our peril so not
36:05
necessarily always protective
36:07
but also
36:08
give you some competitive advantage in
36:10
terms of the weight or the way the the
36:12
garment is cut or the materials it's
36:14
made from
36:15
moisture wicking and
36:17
and and if you look at the panels
36:19
traditionally for for paint and jersey
36:22
they were
36:23
you know 2d designs and you had a design
36:25
on paper and used to sew them up and
36:27
make them they're all computer generated
36:29
now and they're all made on 3d models
36:30
when you hold them up they don't look
36:32
like they're going to to fit you put
36:34
them on and they fit well
36:35
so um you know i think that that element
36:38
of the business has really supported the
36:39
protective element of the business and
36:42
and uh yeah it's a very exciting time
36:44
for leet
36:45
okay so
36:46
uh
36:47
you you've designed all the clothing and
36:49
the shoes and the pads and
36:51
how's that then come full circle and
36:54
informed
36:55
your
36:56
helmet and neck race design so i think i
36:59
think it goes down to materials and also
37:01
new techniques for designing so you know
37:03
the 3d software environment that our
37:06
designers are able to use now already
37:08
advanced um and
37:10
so being able to design in 3d and
37:14
and some of the
37:15
the the new software
37:17
packages we're using for clothing design
37:19
are really phenomenal
37:21
and they help inform us about surfaces
37:23
and
37:24
and
37:25
i wouldn't say there's a direct
37:27
correlation but there is a a
37:29
different understanding of the 3d
37:31
element of design
37:32
but more than that it's materials the
37:35
materials are really important because
37:36
materials are evolving
37:38
so we're always looking for the next
37:40
next best material you know is it super
37:43
energy absorption absorbing is it
37:45
is it moisture wicking is it very light
37:48
does it behave in a different way so for
37:51
example
37:52
these turbines behave in a way that
37:54
don't obey newton's laws of physics the
37:57
harder they get the harder they hit the
37:59
harder they become
38:00
so um
38:03
yeah there's there's been a lot of
38:04
development in terms of uh of of uh
38:07
materials and the turbines didn't start
38:10
off in the helmet they started off being
38:12
materials we looked at for body armor
38:14
for example so there is a
38:16
correlation so
38:19
where are we going what's the the future
38:22
tech can you either in kind of
38:24
hinting terms or in in revealing secrets
38:27
terms where are we going
38:28
so
38:30
when when we say we i mean i think the
38:32
industry in terms of standards is
38:34
evolving
38:35
and manufacturers are going to have to
38:37
meet the evolving standards um and i
38:40
think uh you know there's a lot more
38:42
data being recorded and from the more
38:44
data that's being recorded you know
38:45
events are televised you can actually
38:47
put together
38:48
an event that you see
38:50
the outcome of a rider and something
38:51
that you physically measure on them
38:53
gives us a much better understanding
38:55
about where the injury thresholds are
38:58
and what you can do to prevent them um
39:01
in terms of of lieten new tech uh
39:03
suffice to say
39:05
we don't stop innovating so we're always
39:07
working on multiple blue sky projects at
39:09
the same time um and they're either
39:13
looking at the technology we've
39:14
developed over time and finding a
39:16
different application for them or
39:17
improving them or adding adding to the
39:20
offering so without delving into
39:22
unreleased still being tested uh blue
39:25
sky projects oh sorry hannah uh
39:29
but there are there are a number and i
39:31
think uh yeah watch the space it's an
39:33
exciting company and we certainly know
39:35
we're near finished innovating and
39:37
generating new new products and that's
39:39
really what we thrive from the science
39:41
of the thrill is uh you know we we want
39:43
to allow athletes to perform better and
39:45
for longer um but there's science behind
39:48
it and uh and that's i think there's
39:50
still a lifetime's worth of work to do
39:52
in terms of new products and and new
39:54
technologies
39:56
so you started the company as a parent
39:59
seeing the sport that your son was going
40:00
to go into so final question
40:03
parents watching this what one thing
40:06
should they be insisting their children
40:08
do to to keep them safe
40:11
um i'm not sure there's one thing
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[Music]
40:16
i think you need to dress for the
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occasion
40:19
and
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and make informed decisions
40:22
i guess
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you know there's a lot of trends and
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there's a lot of background chatter
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about what is good and not good for you
40:28
but i think if you're going to put your
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child
40:33
you know let them participate in a sport
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where there's a risk of injury you need
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to mitigate that inquiry as much as as
40:38
possible without going overboard and
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making their lives miserable
40:42
um that's not a one-word answer or one
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item answer but i guess it's just you
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know dress for the occasion and inform
40:49
yourself
40:50
okay well thank you very much for
40:52
joining us today thanks
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