Up next in 10
We chat to Chris Porter about bike setup, fork design limitations, and bike industry flaws.
Check out the full transcribed interview on our site here https://singletrackworld.com/2018/12/interview-chris-porter-the-bicycle-fork-is-so-close-to-its-design-limit/ - (free registration)
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[Music]
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hi welcome to the singletrack welcome
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I'm Hannah and I'm here with Chris
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Porter who has been dropping off a new
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test bike for us today John met Ron so
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we thought we'd grab the chance to to
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speak to of it
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you are kind of well-known for doing
0:20
your own kind of mods on bits of
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suspension and things so does that mean
0:25
you don't think that there's anything in
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the market that quite does what you want
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it to or is that what you want it to but
0:32
the general public should stay well away
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of tweaking stuff well I think one of
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the issues with the bicycle industry's
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we got real fast turnover of designs so
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you get a problem with the bicycle part
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and the person that solves it is the
0:49
designer so they just design your new
0:53
one right so you never actually get to
0:55
the root cause of it they just design
0:58
their way out of the problem but hang on
1:00
a minute somebody's just bought that
1:02
we've got to solve it for them now can't
1:04
wait till next year
1:05
so my thoughts have always been you know
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if it needs hacking or changing you find
1:11
a solution with what you've got and
1:13
that's what we do I guess different to
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the rest of the industry is that we try
1:20
and fix what's already there that would
1:23
make a really good job at what's already
1:25
there rather than just designing another
1:30
thing right another thing that goes in
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landfill next year because it's not this
1:35
year's thing you know it's like there's
1:38
just so much new being made all the time
1:42
and not necessarily any better right I
1:46
don't you know just it's been made new
1:49
just cause it's new yeah rather than
1:52
because it's an improvement so what I
1:57
noticed was different shock so what I've
2:00
seen before on the bike that you just
2:02
dropped off so what is good about that
2:05
that's making you picket to put it on
2:06
your bike
2:07
and the ext we dealing with a company
2:12
called the XT now their extreme shocks
2:14
and we just love them I think it's great
2:18
if we think of the word cooperation and
2:24
how close it is to the word cooperation
2:26
but how different the meanings of those
2:30
words are that's the difference yeah and
2:34
the guys at ext just act like a family
2:40
and they're great you know there are
2:44
really good people to deal with and is
2:48
there suspension any good thing cuz you
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know yeah absolutely he's a mean he's a
2:56
crackpot
2:57
he's a great character love Franco too
3:00
bit but he's gathered a set of really
3:04
good individuals arraigned and who
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worked the suspension programs for him
3:08
and they've made a really good bicycle
3:12
shop absorber in the bicycle world
3:15
there's a lot of feature selling so if
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some if one suspension company makes the
3:25
twin-tube shock absorber everyone else
3:27
has got to make a twin tube shock
3:29
absorber
3:29
if one suspension company does high
3:32
speed and low speed compression and high
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speed and low speed rebound adjust then
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everyone's got doing that you've got
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your selling on features instead of
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selling on performance and suspension on
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a bicycle must be progressive because
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there's no chassis weight at all and the
3:53
sprung weight versus the unsprung weight
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almost the same so there's no real
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chassis weight so the suspension must be
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progressive so that the damping must be
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progressive and and that's really
4:08
difficult to do with the kind of valves
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that give you an adjustment
4:13
most of the adjustment valves that we've
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gotten bicycle in a pre-loaded sprung
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vowels and they give you a real sort of
4:19
poppy feeling
4:21
and then they try and sell you these as
4:24
as a design feature they'll say oh it's
4:28
digressive valving man it's what we want
4:31
digressive valving and it's not what you
4:35
want because we don't have a ton chassis
4:38
to allow the wheel to pop like this and
4:40
keep the chassis we want it really
4:43
progressive
4:44
we don't want it digressive we want
4:46
progressive and the EXT shop puts a lot
4:51
of oil through the shins and shins are a
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demand valve old-fashioned analogue when
4:58
they want more oil flow they'll Bend
5:00
more when they when you want less oil
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flow they'll Bend less you don't need an
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electronics or any fancy technology
5:08
that's what you need you need to spend
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time riding the bike playing with the
5:14
shem stacks trying things and the other
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thing with EXT is that there are real
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sticklers for quality control so I've
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never seen as many dinos in a building
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in my life they have tested dinos at
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every single bench and they have
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portable diagnose they've got like seven
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or eight shocked dinos that are just
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lying around in front of the building
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that might go in a van to do a bit of
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testing with someone and every single
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shot they do get dyno'd to make sure
5:56
that it reaches the damping levels at
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two different speeds they do it slow
6:05
they do it first and they make sure that
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it reaches the damping force that it
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should in two different clicker settings
6:12
as well yeah so if it doesn't it comes
6:16
apart until they find out why it didn't
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know maybe it a shim was bent or yeah
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it'd be hard to do that because they
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check every single Shin you know they're
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quite careful and that's really nice
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because
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that's what I used to do for my shocks
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but and I'm seeing someone being as
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careful as I was did we have confidence
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in it then yeah oh yeah absolutely
6:45
so if that's what you're looking for in
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the in the shop cut the rear what you're
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looking for in the fork and who's
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delivering it or who looks like they
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might deliver it in what's coming do you
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have an opinion on that Oh God
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the bicycle Fork is so close to his
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design limit
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it's amazing that more of them don't
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just fail they're horrible we we've got
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fixed bushing systems which create a
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huge amount of leverage on on that lower
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bushing so it creates a lot of Sun a lot
7:21
of shear force on the bushing so you get
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a lot of bushing binding and as the four
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goes through it's travel that doesn't
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change in most in most telescopic fork
7:33
and applications well all of us you'll
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have a fixed bushing under the seal and
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then you'll have a sliding bushing at
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the other end so as the four goes into
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its travel the leverage on that lower
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bushing lessens the fixed bushings
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create that binding problem straight off
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then you put a spring on one side and a
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damper on the other and then you you're
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binding the fork by literally bending
8:07
the chassis like this name because we're
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we're holding the body weights up here
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but it's supported on the centerline of
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the wheel so it's no binding like this
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and then you hit it fast hit a bump and
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we resist in on the damper so it does
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that so now we've got the default
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chassis doing this and you can literally
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see it and feel it you watch it in
8:29
slow-mo and you can see it you can
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literally see it happening so to improve
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this considering this was what was
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happening when we had a 20 ml axle at
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110 mil wide how are we going to improve
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that I'll tell you what let's go why
8:46
let's go boost let's reduce the axle
8:49
size and let's use a QR with no pinch
8:53
bolts so they're getting worse and worse
8:58
literally the fork so the falter at the
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design limit then something needs to
9:03
change and there's a lot of obviously
9:07
people have noticed this because we got
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things like the motion we've got things
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like the Dave Wiggles performance yeah
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we got you know things are happening and
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people are looking for other ways of
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solving the problem but because the
9:23
bicycle fork industry is taiwan-based no
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one else can cast magnesium lowers we
9:30
need to come away from that whole cast
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magnesium lower thing full stop right
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because we need to we need to get some
9:37
decent sliding bushings in there so is
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that our future then in the UK this is
9:44
this is where we can make a bit booth
9:46
well I mean what we're doing at the
9:49
moment is we're gonna try and do I want
9:51
to try and do we're deep into doing a
9:54
dual crank it for the 36 fork it's been
9:58
working really well by holding the fork
10:02
legs more rigidly parallel the four
10:07
works better anyway but it doesn't solve
10:09
the bushing issue it masks some of the
10:12
problem of the bushing issue so it works
10:14
better when you look at single crane
10:16
fork again you know slow-mo that watch
10:20
someone riding through some braking
10:22
bumps someone riding through braking
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bumps without actually touching the
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brakes and you'll see that the forks are
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flexing three four maybe even five
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degrees and if they're flexing backwards
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and forwards three or four or five
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degrees then they're also doing that in
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a turn so they're doing this they're
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moving all over the place it's a it's a
10:44
wonder more of them don't Creek not that
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they do Creek it's one bit scary when
10:49
you do get a fork like that out of like
10:52
a lower end fork no of its depth and you
10:55
and you really experience that yeah
10:56
that's quite yeah and if you and if you
10:59
can
11:00
feel that a new way a hell of a lot less
11:02
than me but I'm very kind of you to say
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well I wouldn't dare gasp that's
11:08
probably state secret but the average
11:13
mount biker looks more like me you know
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it's quite a lump and we're all getting
11:19
older and we're riding longer travel
11:23
Forks that getting lighter and lighter
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and lighter there's just not enough
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material I mean literally if you take a
11:30
fork apart get hold of the crane steer a
11:32
unit you can literally push it in an 8
11:34
right and measure that you can measure
11:37
that push it in measure it pull it ain't
11:40
measure it it's moved so if it's moving
11:43
by hand it's not mm okay not good enough
11:48
I don't know I mean that I don't know
11:50
where the future lies but I know that we
11:53
need to be looking at different
11:55
solutions for sure I can't afford to fix
11:58
it and if I could I would definitely be
12:02
doing a fort but wait yeah well there
12:06
you go so so there's an investor out
12:08
there that wants to see a much better
12:10
Fork when you're the man to come to with
12:12
their opinions and ideas oh good god no
12:14
and investor would not like me he would
12:19
not like me
12:21
okay a final question then because I do
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have to rush off unfortunately and this
12:28
whole politics yeah well yeah okay so it
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could be politics let's do the
12:34
environment you said about things not
12:37
being particularly strong and invention
12:40
for the sake of new things yeah so yeah
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what does the bicycle industry need to
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do on this I mean on a you know on on a
12:50
scale of the big questions the bicycle
12:53
industry is just fluff isn't it we are
12:55
what we are doing is fluff we're not
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doing anything useful for the world for
13:00
at all you know when we should be
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bicycles could change the world icicles
13:05
could change the world but mountain
13:07
bikes are not the same as Bice again we
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go and ride our mountain
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like for fun we don't use them as
13:15
transport in Britain our our system has
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been organized to create car travel for
13:24
years you know we you won't get planning
13:28
permission to build a business in the
13:30
same place you'll get planning
13:31
permission to put houses the things have
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been separated to make us drive our cars
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and the system has been skewed to the
13:38
private car to the point where most the
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bicycle usage is on old railway tracks
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what they were quite useful weren't they
13:46
railways always yeah as railways or
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canal paths which could still be quite
13:51
useful for moving heavy slow but slow
13:58
turn over Goods you don't need to be
14:01
moving sand quickly but you see sand
14:05
lorries drive in you know lorries
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driving the stuff around at 60 miles
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that we doesn't need to move sound
14:10
quickly that's there's a lot of it array
14:12
but that's our system you know that's
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how it's been done so you know in terms
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of environmental we can't defend
14:21
ourselves just because we're bicycles
14:22
what we're doing is fluff the best thing
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we can do is to carry on using the stuff
14:28
that we are using for as long as
14:30
possible
14:31
and that's you know that's something we
14:34
should be building bicycles that last so
14:37
maybe we don't need any suspension at
14:38
all we just need all rigid bikes and you
14:41
know take them to the shops as well that
14:43
if if that's you know if that's what
14:45
you're enjoying riding that's absolutely
14:47
what you should have I actually quite
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enjoy riding off-road and as we've built
14:54
the bikes more and more capable we've
14:56
ended up riding even more challenging
14:58
off-road trails so I certainly won't be
15:02
looking to build a hardtail anytime soon
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my weekly shop if we're not getting
15:07
pannier mates on their GMS or any time
15:11
soon you know wouldn't be very good
15:13
taking eggs home with it down the track
15:17
no probably not
15:20
yeah no we we should just make the stuff
15:23
last longer and make it better just make
15:26
it so that you can fix it that was one
15:29
of the things that you know I was proud
15:31
of at mojo all the Fox stuff but we
15:35
fixed that didn't end up worth nothing
15:40
being resented prop in a garage door
15:43
open because it no longer worked we
15:44
fixed that stuff you know some stuff you
15:48
can and you know some things are gonna
15:51
be just bent beyond recognition but
15:53
rather than replacing assemblies you
15:57
know taking a cartridge throwing it and
16:00
putting a new one in we were fixing it
16:03
using our skills to fix stuff and that's
16:06
you know that that's changed a lot
16:08
mountain biking now you get a warranty
16:10
problem with a mountain bike product now
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and you're getting new one and for the
16:14
first couple of times you think yeah got
16:16
a new this that would be I've got a new
16:18
completely new product I feel really
16:21
good about that and after the force
16:23
fifth time you starts thing was that
16:26
really worth why paid for it why didn't
16:29
they do some testing before they let it
16:31
out to the public why didn't they have a
16:34
system to look after it you know and
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that's there's not there's not that sort
16:43
of attitude in the mountain bike
16:45
industry at the moment it's all being
16:46
driven well that's not us that's wrong
16:49
to say that there is the attitude it's
16:51
all in small places the big corporates
16:54
are not doing that but there are a lot
16:57
of good people doing good work in Maine
16:59
biking and keeping things going that's
17:00
what we should encourage so support your
17:05
small local bike shop your your local
17:09
innovator and maybe your local magazines
17:12
oh yeah yeah I think not yeah to support
17:15
your local everyone but if they're not
17:19
worth supporting
17:20
you know don't don't struggle with it
17:23
find the guy that is worth supporting
17:24
and that that person will come along and
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there's a lot of good people like that
17:30
yeah so yeah support your magazines for
17:32
sure well yes fine find the good people
17:37
in life and support your local magazines
17:39
I think will will that sounds like a
17:42
good life message and you know that and
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we didn't get onto Trump or Trump or
17:48
exit definitely do again yeah yeah but
17:51
longer a lot longer and when it's a bit
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warmer I'll know it's really shivering
17:55
yeah oh look you been breakfast next
17:58
time thank you very much
18:00
thanks for joining us thanks Bob
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