Up next in 10
In this week’s podcast we’re joined by Anthony de Heveningham, fresh from a trip to the Developing Mountain Biking In Scotland conference. He gives us a debrief on the key issues, including a likely new policy from the forestry world that has worrying implications for trail builders.
You’ll also find out more about the process of redesigning Singletrack Magazine – why are we doing it and what have we done? Amanda explains a bit more about the wizardry she’s been doing behind the scenes.
Plus, there’s the usual selection of news, tenuously related anecdotes, and lightly structured ramblings. And, listen before 25th November to catch the code for a discounted Singletrack Membership to get the next great issue of our magazine, out early December.
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[Music]
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so many people are gonna go and smell
0:07
the dogs
0:08
I mean in reality most Santa Cruz owners
0:11
don't buy just one Santa Cruz and stop
0:13
there do they not that I go around
0:15
smelling Shimano chains all the time it
0:17
might be 200 grams it's a weight of a
0:19
wet shoe you said field of wheat not
0:21
field of weed right I don't really do
0:23
much of that
0:26
hello single track listeners Mark here
0:28
you join us for another single track
0:30
podcast this week I am joined by chips
0:33
hello
0:35
uh and Amanda hello
0:38
and we have a guest this week we have
0:40
Anthony De having him he's one of our
0:42
long-standing contributors we were
0:44
trying to work out how to describe him
0:46
in the Preamble to this podcast he's an
0:49
active Trail Advocate involved in a
0:50
number of advocacy projects around the
0:52
country is that right Anthony yeah
0:54
started off with a Trail Association
0:57
down in Bristol and now trying to get
0:59
one up and running for our local area of
1:01
calderdale so yeah brilliant stuff so
1:04
he's going to join us this week to talk
1:05
about some of the issues and talking
1:07
points that we've all come armed with
1:10
the first thing I'm going to bring up is
1:13
we have or we are in the middle of
1:16
redesigning the printed mag that's
1:20
coming out in December isn't that right
1:23
Amanda we are yes
1:26
how's that going
1:27
it's going well
1:30
um at this stage if you asked me two
1:32
weeks ago I might not have been so
1:34
positive I probably wouldn't have been
1:35
here I certainly wouldn't have been
1:36
positive
1:38
um but yeah change is good
1:41
is good chips you've been involved in
1:43
this obviously because you're our editor
1:45
at large when it comes to the print
1:46
magazine so um what's what's your
1:49
thoughts on the redesign so far
1:51
uh it's good we're we're basically
1:53
trying to
1:55
um I suppose to still distill the
1:57
essence of the magazine so that uh
2:00
there's there's less kind of flipping
2:04
through going oh what's this feature I
2:06
don't know what's what's going on and
2:08
going right here's a feature I want sit
2:10
down and and consume for the next 10
2:12
minutes and I want to pour over the
2:16
pictures I want to read all the words
2:18
because obviously as as the editor I'm
2:21
always offended that everyone's like oh
2:22
I love the pictures
2:24
uh so so
2:27
so it's it's a case just in terms of of
2:31
content and uh uh and sort of
2:34
presentation
2:35
of of trying to distill the magazine
2:38
down so that it's uh I don't know we've
2:41
we've turned all the colors up not
2:43
literally because that'll be bad
2:45
uh and uh We've we've just kind of made
2:49
it so that it's more single track
2:51
well that's brilliant isn't Essence all
2:53
about how it smells as well I mean we
2:55
have to point out actually it's not just
2:57
a design
2:58
um upgrade is it Amanda we've actually
3:00
upgraded something else
3:02
we have but I don't feel I can comment
3:04
on it yet because I've not had it in my
3:06
hand yet
3:07
we're talking about the paper right we
3:09
are talking about it yeah so we've held
3:12
we've held a blank white sheet copy of
3:16
what the new paper will be and manage to
3:18
be excited about that so with print on
3:20
it I'm sure it'll be amazing yeah we're
3:24
all we're we're all excited about it and
3:26
we've been you know single tracks been
3:28
doing this for 22 years knocking out
3:30
print and it's always really really
3:31
exciting when any issue comes out we're
3:34
always kind of really excited when it
3:36
lands on the doorstep and everyone
3:37
rushes and starts flicking through it
3:38
and smelling it I'm interested to know
3:40
what the new paper is going to smell
3:42
like that's going to be the first thing
3:43
I do yeah open it to the center and
3:45
stick my face into it
3:47
the readers miss out on the uh the
3:50
decision-making parts of you running
3:52
around the office going close your eyes
3:54
and smell that
3:56
but yeah
3:57
Charlie is Charlie's really really Keen
4:00
that we should investigate smaller
4:02
Vision I mean the chips do remember
4:04
Warners once offered us that service
4:06
didn't they they did but they could only
4:08
do a limited uh number of smells they
4:11
could do you know strawberry or or you
4:14
know and basically anything where
4:15
someone has synthesized the smell so
4:18
much that it was you know available by
4:21
the tanker mode yes
4:23
yeah it was for the cover wasn't it and
4:26
oh by the way Warners is our printer by
4:27
the way if no one gets that reference
4:30
um but yeah we we kind of were saying to
4:32
them yeah you've got about 100 smells
4:33
there can you go and do something like
4:35
WD-40 or something like that or a smell
4:37
of rubber but those those weren't on the
4:40
menu I don't remember
4:41
I'm not sure that would have been that
4:43
appealing really would it I've just
4:45
actually written the column that will
4:46
will appear at some point about smells
4:50
um just because smell is obviously the
4:52
the sort of strongest trigger sense that
4:56
we have
4:56
and there are some things that whisk me
4:59
right back to you know where I was 30
5:02
years ago or something like opening
5:04
cardboard boxes uh with bike components
5:06
in they have a particular smell to them
5:09
Shimano chains yes they have a they have
5:12
a unique smell I find and not that I go
5:15
around smelling Shimano chains all the
5:16
time Anthony if there was a one smell
5:19
that you could make our magazine smell
5:22
of what do you think would be the most
5:24
appropriate smell well I'm pretty sure
5:26
Pine fresh has got to be you know that
5:29
that lovely sort of pine needle thing
5:31
that's got to be a commercially
5:32
available smell giving its ubiquity in
5:35
the hygiene industry yeah that plus a
5:38
nice picture would be nice as long as it
5:41
wasn't too laboratorial that's the thing
5:43
it's a fine line between uh Alpine fresh
5:47
Vistas and cleaning the loo I don't
5:51
agree sorry I I think out on the trails
5:55
and on your bike you've got all these
5:57
outdoorsy smells but the magazine is a
6:00
baked goods coffee
6:03
bath bubble bath smell like what so
6:07
blueberry muffin
6:09
yeah
6:11
we've had two dogs on the cover and I
6:13
did think at those times no wet dog
6:17
wet dog smell
6:20
no puppies Paws I bet popcorn's a
6:23
popular one and that's what puppy's Paws
6:24
smell like
6:26
really so many people are going to smell
6:28
the dogs
6:31
poor give us a pour right well at this
6:35
juncture I'm gonna do like that thing
6:37
where you do on podcast which is gonna
6:38
just break for a moment just to tell you
6:40
about a bit of promotion that is
6:42
important to us
6:43
um this week uh Charlie Charlie who's
6:46
not here Charlie might be on the podcast
6:48
next week so he can he can probably do
6:51
this more justice but I've got Charlie's
6:52
notes here Charlie's Got a new
6:54
membership offer and he says join us now
6:57
and beat the price increase because at
6:59
the end of this month the prices of
7:00
single track magazine memberships is
7:02
actually going up but if you get in now
7:04
you'll lock in your prize for the next
7:06
12 months at the at the existing price
7:08
so join us now beat the price increase
7:10
and if you use this code
7:12
free Bell zero four that's free bell04
7:16
when you join us as a print or digital
7:18
member we will send you the rather
7:20
amazing Timber Bell we are massive fans
7:23
of this Bell as it can be locked off or
7:25
turned on this small cowbell will gently
7:27
alert other Trail users as you approach
7:30
whilst this is great for trail Harmony
7:32
it is also brilliant at keeping the
7:34
trail clear and you'll speed up the
7:36
timber Bell is worth 27 pounds 99 and
7:38
it's free with an annual print
7:39
membership at 39 pounds but also the
7:42
digital membership at only 20 pounds yes
7:45
20 pounds gets you a year of digital
7:47
membership and a 27 pound 99 Bell simply
7:51
use the special offer code free Bell 04
7:53
at checkout and then he's got brackets
7:55
when twos and C's cannot be used in
7:57
conjunction with any other offers and
7:58
that sort of stuff so there we go that's
8:00
the promo for this week get in there and
8:04
uh if you join all the other really
8:05
important thing is there's a cut off
8:07
another cutoff date of the 25th of
8:09
November that is the date that we
8:12
process all of the live subscriptions
8:15
and send them through to our mailing
8:16
house so that means that if you join us
8:18
after the 25th you're not going to get
8:20
the next issue and the next issue is
8:22
well worth getting because chips it's
8:24
not just a magazine this issue is it
8:26
there's something else with it
8:27
there is the uh traditional single track
8:30
calendar
8:31
absolutely how's that looking Amanda
8:35
yeah
8:39
now that I need to make the calendar you
8:42
haven't forgotten it have you no no
8:44
definitely not
8:45
we've done the important bit which is
8:47
making sure all the photos are brilliant
8:50
which I did with Ross Ross has input uh
8:53
yeah calendars in the back definitely
8:56
already finished that
8:58
I think the most important point of
9:00
creating one of these calendars that you
9:01
hang on the wall is to make sure that
9:04
the hole goes in the right place isn't
9:05
that right chips uh yes a uh another
9:10
British mountain bike magazine uh did
9:13
famously come out with the uh whole of
9:16
their calendar sheet based calendar
9:19
um on the wrong side so that you could
9:23
hang it up but you can actually open it
9:26
it sounds like the sort of thing that we
9:29
would have probably done but we've
9:30
managed to avoid doing that over the
9:31
years haven't we we've just done other
9:33
things uh we probably haven't got time
9:35
to go into all of them now but uh yes
9:38
there have been a I think that's a good
9:40
that's a good podcast episode that we'll
9:42
go through all the mistakes that we've
9:44
made oh yeah very long it'll be a very
9:46
long podcast yeah we can have special
9:49
guests so we can have props
9:51
idea
9:59
right what I want to what I want to do
10:01
now is I want to bring in Anthony we're
10:03
going to jump to Anthony now because
10:06
in my notes here and this made Anthony
10:08
giggle I've got latest Shenanigans from
10:11
the Scottish access Forum conference is
10:15
that what was it the Scottish mountain
10:17
bike conference so it's a bit more
10:19
um it's it's a bit more than access it
10:22
kind of covers everything it's like the
10:23
industry
10:25
um what's going on with Trail sensor
10:27
developments
10:28
um you know what's going on with all
10:30
sorts of really exciting initiatives in
10:32
Scotland and um it's every two years and
10:36
I'm always really excited to go because
10:37
they're just crushing it in terms of
10:40
what they're doing for mountain biking
10:41
up there they're doing such a brilliant
10:43
job and it's a good example for the rest
10:45
of the UK to look to
10:47
yeah I mean Scotland is killing it has
10:50
been killing it for years isn't it as a
10:52
global sort of mountain bike player it's
10:55
often sort of ranked up there with
10:56
places to ride bikes like uh you know
10:58
should we say the slightly more famous
11:01
sort of BC and um Canada and places like
11:04
that but they've won awards haven't they
11:06
World awards for the Scottish trials I
11:08
think yeah if you were gonna go and ride
11:11
your bike in the UK and you had to
11:13
choose a country you would probably have
11:15
Scotland at the top Wales second in
11:18
England at the bottom old chipsy's
11:20
raising his hand I think he's just an
11:21
objection
11:22
no no I'm not I'm not a disagreeing at
11:25
all I was just uh wondering because
11:29
Scotland famously has very liberal
11:32
access laws where you can basically ride
11:34
your bike as long as you're not going
11:36
through someone's Garden or across a
11:38
field full of wheat uh you can ride your
11:42
bike anywhere so why does it need
11:44
trailers you said field of wheat not
11:46
field of weed right I don't think they
11:48
do much of that up there
11:53
is Scotland known for its fields of
11:55
wheat
11:58
which is used heavily in the production
12:01
of whiskey so they definitely have some
12:03
of that so Fields barley a football
12:06
fields rugby pitches and people's
12:09
Gardens you can write just about
12:11
anywhere else as long as you're not
12:13
causing some permanent damage so why why
12:16
does it need
12:17
Trail associations
12:19
well basically in Scotland you're right
12:22
they have a right of responsible access
12:24
and
12:25
um
12:26
it's actually a little bit more mixed up
12:29
there than we kind of see from the
12:31
outside we go up there we go riding
12:32
we're like this is fantastic I'm riding
12:34
on the footpath it's brilliant it should
12:36
be like this in the rest of the UK
12:38
um but in the context of riders building
12:40
Trails which there's been quite a boom
12:42
in in recent years it's created a bit of
12:45
an issue because what happens is Rider
12:48
builds Trail other Riders start riding
12:50
Trail it gets on trail Fork Strava
12:52
whatever and and then for Orlando to
12:56
then come along and close that trail and
12:58
stop people riding on it
13:00
um is quite difficult under the Scottish
13:02
outdoor access codes you know putting up
13:04
fences around land is something that you
13:06
do in very specific limited
13:08
circumstances and it draws a lot of
13:10
criticism because they are rightly proud
13:12
of the right to access up there
13:14
so um instead what they're trying to do
13:17
is work with riders to develop trails in
13:22
the right place and sort of go there's a
13:25
time and a place finale hand-cut stuff
13:27
and um you know there needs to be a
13:30
broader offering in this part of the
13:32
country to um put more stuff in for
13:35
beginners and yeah really a big focus of
13:38
this conference was what they're doing
13:40
up in aberdeenshire at the moment which
13:41
has loads of fantastic natural riding
13:43
but what they've done over the past few
13:45
years has teamed up with a local really
13:47
proactive Trail Association
13:50
um and as well as like local communities
13:52
communities in Scotland own forests and
13:54
things like that it's a really you know
13:56
it's a really cool setup someone coming
13:58
from England and
14:00
um yeah the showpiece is a new Trail
14:02
Center that they're currently developing
14:04
in aberdeenshire that they've got a
14:06
million pounds of investment for and
14:07
it's going to have loads and loads of
14:09
really fun flowy Trails for all levels
14:11
built in a kind of you know really
14:14
attentive
14:16
um attention to detail sort of um the
14:19
style you'd expect from a rider built
14:21
Trail so yeah it's really exciting
14:23
they're doing some really amazing stuff
14:24
up there
14:26
cool so is that
14:28
is it is that all sort of um I mean
14:31
you've spun that as a really positive
14:32
thing but it sort of came out of a sort
14:35
of an issue which is that if Trails you
14:39
can ride anywhere people are starting to
14:42
um
14:42
create dig trials and is that actually
14:45
becoming an issue is it is it
14:47
problematic it's it's been a massive
14:50
issue
14:51
um over the past few years
14:53
um particularly over lockdown but even
14:55
before then they were having problems
14:57
with riders building trails in
14:58
inappropriate places
15:00
um they were building Chelsea for us
15:01
where Kappa Kaylee are there's like 500
15:03
breeding pairs of capically in Scotland
15:05
and things they had Riders building
15:08
trails that exited onto roads and stuff
15:10
like that with real sort of
15:12
pressing safety issues so yeah it's an
15:16
attempt to kind of get the Riders on
15:18
board and get some actual ProActive
15:19
Management I mean part of the issue is
15:22
Forest and land Scotland
15:24
um have a massive land holding they are
15:26
the biggest land holder in Scotland
15:28
um One Step that one of their staff
15:30
mentioned was that more people visit the
15:32
Scottish forest and visit the beach up
15:34
there
15:35
which you can kind of yeah like I
15:38
totally buy that and yeah they are
15:41
spread very very thin and it's just
15:43
trying to get Riders engaged with
15:45
actually managing this stuff and making
15:47
them realize that they can actually sort
15:50
of benefit from doing it as well it's
15:52
not just a case of getting them to do
15:53
all the Dirty Work
15:55
so I mean it
15:57
it's quite clear that Scotland is a
16:00
shall we say a forward-looking kind of
16:04
place when it comes to mountain biking
16:06
and access and by contrast
16:09
England I'm not going to get I was going
16:11
to say the rest of the UK but it not
16:13
include Wales because Wales has actually
16:15
made some
16:16
um changes and some improvements I guess
16:18
to mountain bike access but England is
16:20
kind of not on that in the same ballpark
16:22
is it really do you think there's any
16:25
chance of that kind of
16:27
slightly more liberal attitude of the in
16:30
Scotland leaking down south into the UK
16:33
into the into England
16:34
well I hope against hope that that
16:38
um is what will happen gradually
16:41
um unfortunately it seems like they're
16:43
kind of responding to the explosion in
16:46
trail building that's happened over
16:47
lockdown by taking a bit of a harder
16:48
line and they've not really sort of come
16:51
out and made a formal announcement but
16:53
for example at the conference we were
16:54
asked to take part in a couple of
16:57
workshops on trail development and one
17:00
of them asked us to consider a zero
17:03
tolerance policy to new unauthorized
17:06
Trails basically anything that looks
17:08
like it's been built where someone stuck
17:09
a spade in the ground even if it's just
17:11
like breaking out a berm or something
17:14
it looks like going forward there'll be
17:17
much more inclined to remove that sort
17:19
of stuff rather than just monitoring it
17:21
and tolerating it
17:23
right so not great news for us down here
17:26
for us as Southerners it's yeah I mean
17:30
it's understandable in that there's been
17:32
a lot of unauthorized Trail development
17:34
and in some areas it's kind of you know
17:37
becoming a real problem just in terms of
17:39
managing this whole network that's
17:41
sprung up you know some some trail
17:43
centers have way more unauthorized Trail
17:46
around them than there are actual miles
17:48
of trailing in the trail Center and that
17:51
creates quite a big management headache
17:53
for a landowner
17:55
um like I say they don't have that many
17:56
staff on the ground and they're also in
17:58
quite an unusual position in that they
18:01
are the crown body so they self-insure
18:03
so they don't have an insurer
18:05
underwriting potential liability claims
18:07
that all comes out their operating
18:09
budget
18:10
so it's it's really interesting what
18:12
it's meant that is that in terms of like
18:15
the really kind of progressive
18:17
sort of technical side of the sport
18:19
seeing downhill tracks things like
18:20
Revolution bike park that sort of thing
18:22
it's all taking place on uh Forest on um
18:26
forestry England
18:28
um natural resources Wales or forest and
18:30
Scotland land
18:32
so their exposure is massive but they've
18:34
got like really robust procedures in
18:36
place to defend it but one of the things
18:38
they have to do is really think
18:40
carefully about like letting Riders have
18:42
a free Handover where to build
18:43
so that it does seem like they're taking
18:45
a harder line
18:47
interesting so I mean just to finish off
18:49
before we move on to something else
18:51
um you say this this event
18:54
just remember what it's called again
18:55
Anthony
18:56
the Scottish mountain bike conference
18:58
the Scottish Mountain conference right
19:00
so Anthony just to summarize the the
19:03
Scottish mountain bike conference
19:04
happens that every two years that you've
19:07
you've been to several been to two now
19:10
covered kind of got in the way of the
19:12
last one so just leaving that conference
19:14
uh how optimistic because sometimes you
19:17
can leave these conferences uh on on
19:19
these issues and people feel pretty down
19:21
and pessimistic about the future how
19:24
would you rate on your on a scale of say
19:26
one to ten of optimism with 10 is super
19:27
optimistic
19:29
how did you feel I'd say seven out of
19:33
ten slightly less glowy than I felt it
19:36
um previous
19:38
conferences because basically this
19:41
policy of sort of taking out any
19:43
unauthorized Trail in some areas of the
19:46
country it's really going to stymie any
19:48
sort of Trail development you know we're
19:49
not getting massive grants from the
19:51
European Union anymore to develop trails
19:54
in rural areas and stuff Riders are
19:55
doing it themselves and if their trails
19:57
are just going to get knocked down then
20:00
um that's going to kind of increase
20:02
tensions increase conflict and kind of
20:04
drive it all underground and mitigate
20:06
against the chance of getting this
20:07
working relationship that's happened so
20:11
well in Scotland
20:12
and the other issue is it kind of if you
20:15
set up like a a trail group a trove
20:17
Association you kind of become the
20:20
mouthpiece or the bridge between Riders
20:22
and landowners and it can be really
20:25
difficult you can sort of end up being
20:27
backed into a corner trying to explain
20:28
to the Riding community why their Trails
20:30
have been removed and they've only got
20:32
these boring ones to ride and then that
20:35
affects your volunteer base the amount
20:37
of enthusiasm and the amount of the you
20:39
know it it eats a lot of your resources
20:41
that you could put into developing
20:42
trails so yeah I think we'll see how it
20:46
transpires my feeling is it's a bit of a
20:49
backwards step albeit one I can kind of
20:51
understand
20:52
so it's politics then right should we
20:55
leave that alone now move on
20:57
enough politics let's talk about riding
21:00
bikes um we were so close we were so
21:02
close to saying the brexit word in the
21:04
middle of that as well so I'm glad that
21:06
didn't come out to oh I just said it
21:08
right
21:12
um I'm gonna move on now to uh because
21:15
we're always in the podcast I always
21:17
want to try and reflect on something
21:18
that we've published on the website in
21:20
the last week just you know it's a bit
21:21
of promo and trying to make sure our
21:22
listeners all rush off to the website to
21:24
go and see what good work we've done uh
21:26
this week Benji published a review
21:29
and this got us talking in the office
21:32
um quite in response to the comments and
21:35
it was the Benji's review of an e-bike
21:37
it was the Trek e fuel review and it
21:40
very quickly got an awful lot of
21:43
comments I think less count as well over
21:45
50. and um most of them were commenting
21:49
on the price of that bike
21:52
uh the the bike that in fact the price
21:55
of the bike I'm just going to say it now
21:56
when we got that bike it was about 13
21:58
and a half thousand quid uh By the time
22:01
Ben reviewed it it had gone up to 14 and
22:04
a half thousand so in the space of
22:06
literally I think we'd had it for less
22:08
than around about a month the price had
22:10
suddenly shot up to Fourteen and a half
22:12
thousand pounds is that right Amanda is
22:15
that because Benji's ridden it
22:17
is
22:18
and now it's worth 14. yeah yes how will
22:22
that man's got absolutely celebrity
22:25
owner like after either admit yes
22:27
but no it I mean Ben did start off his
22:32
feature by saying ignore the price and
22:35
he deliberately set the contact series
22:37
review saying he wasn't going to comment
22:39
on things that weren't available in the
22:42
uh the lower
22:43
expect bikes so he ignored all the
22:46
really top spec
22:47
um um gear on it all the the the group
22:50
sets and and everything else he just
22:52
concentrated mostly on how it handled
22:54
and it's um and the motor and how that
22:57
worked in order to try and just get away
22:59
from the fact that the the price of the
23:01
bike was frankly I mean we we can all
23:03
agree astronomical
23:06
um however I think that that range
23:09
begins at something about around about
23:12
the six thousand pound Mark now I am not
23:14
in any way shape or form advocating that
23:17
six thousand pounds for a bike is cheap
23:19
but it's certainly not at that the
23:22
extreme end of that Fourteen and a half
23:24
thousand pound mark
23:26
however inevitably lots of people
23:28
commented on the price and and it got us
23:30
all talking in the office
23:32
first of all there's some in response to
23:34
some of the uh feedback
23:37
I guess the listeners probably want to
23:39
they're probably detected a pattern with
23:40
our reviews and I think chips you can
23:42
answer this one is that why do we get
23:44
such massively expensive bikes because
23:46
this model in particular you've got to
23:48
imagine that it's not the it's not going
23:51
to be in the middle of the bell curve of
23:52
where the sales are going to be it's
23:54
right at the extreme end so why do we as
23:56
reviewers in a magazine and it's not
23:58
just us it's other magazines why do we
24:00
get these really silly expensive bikes
24:03
well as someone pointed out in the
24:05
comments they said uh uh Johnny Storm
24:08
says yeah it's a Darth price but you
24:10
aren't supposed to buy it it's like an S
24:12
worked levo twice the price of a normal
24:14
one just to act as a Halo and attract
24:16
attention
24:17
um one of the reasons we get such fancy
24:20
bikes is quite often we get the the
24:23
first production bikes available and uh
24:27
the manufacturer will
24:29
make those top end bikes first uh in the
24:32
same way that car manufacturers will
24:34
will have their fully
24:37
specked versions first because it shows
24:39
what is available
24:41
uh that
24:43
those top end bikes are probably already
24:47
ordered by their you know die-hard
24:50
customers who want the latest bikes and
24:53
they want the best bike
24:55
and the so the manufacturer will have a
24:59
stock of those bikes first of all and
25:02
those bikes will be used for promotions
25:04
they'll be used as flagship store bikes
25:07
they'll be used to send out to magazines
25:10
and the reason that we get the fancy
25:13
bites is because those bikes are the
25:14
first ones generally made and then the
25:18
low runs will sort of trickle out over
25:21
the next few weeks and months
25:24
um and quite often they are they're
25:26
built in a you know they'll be built
25:30
perhaps in the in the factory rather
25:32
than being built by A supplier who who
25:35
builds bikes
25:36
and we'll we'll get them because the
25:39
manufacturer wants us to have the the
25:42
best experience over of that bike they
25:44
don't want us complaining about oh well
25:47
the tires are a bit heavy or it'd be
25:49
nice if there was a carbon bar or not an
25:51
aluminum bar so we get that no one
25:53
complains about heavy tires anymore do
25:55
they we've all got our heads around that
25:58
or uh OEM tires made of soap which which
26:03
we have had uh we you know you if you
26:07
pick a bike from from the the bottom end
26:10
of the range which we quite often do if
26:13
we can then
26:15
um that's where compromises are made in
26:18
the uh in the specking of bikes and as I
26:22
think we've said before
26:24
it's a bit like
26:25
um uh specking a bike at a lower range
26:29
is
26:31
is mostly done on a spreadsheet so you
26:33
if you want more expensive radio you
26:36
have to have cheaper tires and there's
26:37
there's this sort of balancing you know
26:39
Mark has the analogy of uh of running
26:43
our website uh as well uh of driving a
26:46
submarine where you've got all these
26:48
dials and things that you turn one down
26:50
until you can turn another one up and
26:52
it's only once you get sort of into the
26:55
the more expensive bikes that the you're
26:59
no longer constrained by
27:01
the actual budget you can be a bit more
27:04
sort of creative in your spec and so if
27:06
you want the same frame to be more racy
27:10
or more uh down country or what have you
27:13
you've got the freedom to do that
27:14
because you're no longer limited to the
27:16
price of tires and derailleurs you've
27:19
got more of an open uh sort of
27:21
budget and a Freer palette
27:24
and so so we get these bikes because
27:26
those are the ones that are made that
27:28
are made first then because they're the
27:30
ones that shelf the bike
27:33
but in I mean the comments in there
27:35
there's always and I think it's totally
27:38
understandable that the readers would
27:39
make these comments is that there is a
27:41
perception a guess if in we as the media
27:44
were getting for those reasons you've
27:46
just outlined these super expensive
27:48
bikes then there is a danger that the
27:50
perception of mountain biking is that
27:51
bikes are really crazy expensive and
27:55
it's just getting ridiculous is that
27:57
actually the case
27:58
Amanda what do you reckon I do think
28:02
it's not just some bikes that are
28:04
getting more expensive all bikes are
28:07
but everything is getting more expensive
28:11
yeah I think things are getting I've not
28:14
put too much thought into this well yeah
28:16
I haven't put too much thought into this
28:18
bike in particular but on the why do we
28:21
get the most expensive one I see it as
28:25
you can do a thorough review of the top
28:28
spec and then say so I did when I
28:32
reviewed the Wilder which is the
28:34
giuliana's version of the blur it had
28:37
full axis everything on it
28:39
and I reviewed it as it was and said but
28:44
you could make it more affordable by not
28:46
having this and this so we can do it two
28:48
ways we could get the base model and say
28:50
but it needs a longer dropper and the
28:52
gearing's a bit cheesy and this and that
28:55
or start at the top and say you know you
28:59
could sacrifice this and this but I
29:01
really think that this component's great
29:04
yeah but yeah generally everything's
29:07
getting more expensive and you don't you
29:10
don't need it's not that we're saying
29:13
you need the most expensive it's you
29:15
know within your budget read the reviews
29:18
of those bikes yeah because some people
29:20
can afford that and want to invest in
29:22
the hobby you know Life's a bit at
29:25
the minute and if banks are the only
29:27
thing that's good in your life and
29:28
you've got a load of money spend it on
29:30
them
29:31
I'd just like to say I'm not one of
29:32
those people I'm you know I've still
29:34
just got my steel hardtail but there are
29:37
people out there that can afford to do
29:39
it and yeah I I last year I tested the
29:43
uh specialized s-works uh levo
29:47
and it was I think the retail on that
29:49
was 13 and a half thousand and I wrote
29:51
that on some of my local trails and I
29:53
got stopped by somebody at a gate and he
29:54
said oh with a knife with the knife he
29:57
was he was also a mountain biker he was
29:59
going the opposite way but he he said oh
30:02
he recognized the bike and he went oh
30:04
that's is that are you from single track
30:05
are you testing that back I said yeah he
30:07
says that's is that really thirteen half
30:09
thousand I said yeah it is in this I
30:11
remember him saying he said would you
30:12
have it and I just said no no I wouldn't
30:15
I'd go all the way down I'd love the the
30:17
mid-range at six thousand yeah it's kind
30:19
of ridiculous talking e-bikes here so
30:21
just a little context and um I said I'd
30:25
have the one that's half the price it
30:27
would be just as good for me and I'd
30:29
just you know if we had 13 000 I'd get
30:31
the one that's half the price and then
30:32
spend the rest of it taking it around
30:34
the world on a holiday and riding it
30:37
um but yeah it's it's it's important for
30:40
us as media thing to try and counter
30:42
that narrative that bikes are
30:44
ridiculously expensive because we do
30:46
have have another one in the office at
30:48
the moment don't we Amanda we've got a
30:50
Jamis
30:51
in the office oh yeah you remember how
30:54
much is that one it's 1800 pounds
30:57
1800 Pounds full suspension really looks
31:00
really good and uh there's a fetus a
31:04
scarp as well which I've ridden the real
31:06
base model one of it was on sale for
31:08
less than a thousand pounds and that was
31:10
an amazing bike for the money you could
31:12
like ride anything that you'd ride on a
31:14
fancy bike on it because it had really
31:16
good tires basically and decent brakes
31:19
and serviceable suspension and yeah I
31:22
think that's the thing people
31:23
um
31:24
uh as bikes have evolved I guess
31:28
Mountain Mike's have evolved over the
31:29
last 20 30 years the
31:32
the top end has got higher but the
31:35
entry-level bikes have have got so much
31:38
better if you think back to to what you
31:41
would get for you know 800 pounds when I
31:44
was starting out as a mountain biker you
31:47
could get a frame for that or you could
31:49
get
31:51
um
31:52
you know you could get a bike with gears
31:55
that kind of worked and tires that sort
31:57
of punctured and a nice rigid fork and
32:01
and steel frame and and it was great for
32:06
the time uh and you look at now
32:09
you know you can't go on man to my rides
32:12
and no one stops because of a mechanical
32:15
there are no I won't say there are no
32:17
more punctures but there are fewer
32:20
punctures there are fewer instances of
32:23
chain Circle you have to break the chain
32:24
to get the chain out from the front
32:27
derailleur and the and the frame and
32:31
um and there are just fewer examples of
32:33
of bikes wearing out and breaking on
32:37
every ride and we used to stop a couple
32:39
of times every night ride back in the
32:42
sort of early 2000s because someone had
32:44
punctured or someone's you know super
32:48
expensive lights had failed because they
32:49
only lasted 45 minutes
32:52
and now we've got these points you can
32:54
hop on
32:55
you don't really have to treat them you
32:58
don't
32:59
um you don't have to surgically take
33:01
them apart and polish and refresh the
33:04
grease in every component anymore entry
33:07
level bikes are brilliant and the level
33:10
at which you you go up is is your choice
33:13
it's how much of the
33:15
how much you perceive is worth upgrading
33:18
or getting the next model up that's the
33:21
same other thing yeah come on I'm going
33:24
to say I think one of the things that
33:25
we've moved away from that might help in
33:27
in sort of the technology point of view
33:29
and the reliability devices I think we
33:31
were if we haven't completely moved away
33:34
we are well on the way of moving away
33:36
from the sort of the preoccupation with
33:38
weight of a bike I'm saying Anthony you
33:41
you said before about tires you know we
33:43
don't really care about the way it ties
33:44
anymore we just care that they function
33:46
properly and they work really really
33:48
well and I've seen some of this feedback
33:51
from from on the Forum of people saying
33:54
but why does it weigh so much and and I
33:56
guess our answer in the office is
33:58
because the way it doesn't really matter
33:59
that much anymore it's more about
34:01
reliability and and rideability these
34:04
days is that kind of something we can
34:06
all get behind
34:07
should we just stop publishing the
34:09
weight of things if someone says what's
34:11
the way ask them why why
34:15
I don't know it's an interesting one
34:16
isn't it the whole weight of weight of
34:18
bikes it's no longer that
34:20
what was it there's a website couldn't
34:22
there I should check on the whether it
34:23
still exists let me tell us the answer
34:24
to this wait wean is probably still
34:26
around because some people do care about
34:28
that kind of stuff but in the same way
34:30
that some people
34:31
care about the you know the reach to to
34:34
the metal meter and the pad angle to the
34:36
half a degree
34:38
um as and I'm sort of you know old
34:41
school enough that
34:43
you know weight was the thing when when
34:46
all our bikes weighed 30 pounds and they
34:48
had no suspension and now they weigh 30
34:51
pounds but they've got all the gears and
34:52
they've got all the suspension
34:54
uh and you can actually ride them up and
34:57
down a lot more terrain than you used to
35:00
be able to the older bikes
35:03
um but I was having a a conversation
35:05
with Ross in the office Ross of this
35:08
Parish in the office who is
35:11
um far more uh rad and down country than
35:14
me and we were talking about difference
35:17
between you know a fox 34 and a fox 36
35:20
and fox 36 and fox 38. and and Russell's
35:25
saying well the difference between those
35:27
two models in terms of the benefit you
35:29
get from steering precision and and just
35:32
sort of ability to smash into rocks he
35:34
said it's a wet shoe
35:37
it's you know it might be it might be
35:40
200 grams it's it's the weight of a wet
35:42
shoe you know when when did you last
35:45
sort of stand yourself in your riding
35:48
gear on the scales and think have I
35:51
paired myself and my riding gear down to
35:54
the absolute minimum to be able to worry
35:56
about the difference between an XT and
35:58
an XTR paddle weight you know does that
36:02
really matter
36:03
foreign
36:05
Tracy mostly once uh at the end of a
36:08
endurance Enduro race and I got her to
36:11
put out all of her backpack contents on
36:15
the table and it was quite a big table
36:16
and she filled it
36:18
because she had spare pivots for her
36:20
bike and she had a tool and a spare
36:24
multi-tool in case the first one broke
36:25
just because it was it had to be a
36:28
reliable setup but then as she was
36:30
getting towards the bottom of the of her
36:32
bag she was like oh there's there's a
36:34
250 gram bag of fruit nut that I didn't
36:38
realize I had so she was carrying 250
36:41
grams worth of
36:43
unknown snacks that around her for this
36:46
entire 50k Enduro race
36:49
that she didn't even know she had and
36:52
and I think a lot of us uh have made
36:55
that mistake of of going oh well I need
36:57
a jacket and oh I need maybe I need a
36:59
gillet too and and then some arm warmers
37:02
and and I need my tool and I need a pump
37:04
and I need a CO2 in case that doesn't
37:07
work and then I need a spare CO2 and I
37:09
need and then you've you've got you know
37:11
an eight kilo rucksack and you're
37:13
worrying about your 1200 gram tires
37:15
yeah yeah it's interesting isn't it
37:18
Amanda can I just add my version of
37:21
Tracy Mosley's fruit and not I did the
37:24
Kira tree 10 with a backpack on just so
37:27
I could have a hydration pack but I
37:29
didn't check through it and I'd found
37:31
some nice rocks when I was in the Isle
37:33
of Man
37:34
and there is a picture of me looking at
37:37
these rocks in disbelief because I've
37:39
pedaled them around for 10 hours they're
37:41
not big you know they were the size of a
37:43
rock that you'd want to paint
37:46
um
37:47
did you podium in that event yeah you
37:52
did was it were you first were you first
37:54
uh wait I can't remember what year this
37:57
was no I think it was second this one I
38:00
came so the first year I did it I was on
38:02
the the top spec Santa Cruz Blur
38:07
and the second year I was on a Vitus
38:09
repeat that is three and a bit thousand
38:12
pound
38:14
I had a way better time on it
38:19
and I carried some rocks around
38:22
yeah do you think the suspension was all
38:24
planted
38:26
yeah I mean
38:27
struts led to the down tubes of his
38:30
bikes to make them descend better maybe
38:31
that's what you were doing
38:34
I think also when you kind of laser in
38:37
on one thing like value as the sole good
38:41
measure of what a bike is and you lose a
38:43
lot of other stuff as well it's like the
38:45
biggest
38:46
um our watch response I've had recently
38:48
was a review of a Santa Cruz which was
38:51
yeah it was a hard value proposition
38:54
um as a bike but also if you look at
38:57
Santa Cruz as a company
38:59
um they do a lot of stuff around Trail
39:01
advocacy that again and um things like
39:05
you know lifetime warranties on their
39:07
bikes
39:08
um they're just generally a brand that
39:09
really look after their Riders and
39:12
things and if you buy a um a really kind
39:16
of like how they've done that for how
39:17
much money direct sales type bike you
39:19
may not get that same level of support
39:21
or peace of mind as well so it's there's
39:25
more to life than just the race to the
39:27
bottom basically yeah there's um a bit
39:31
of the
39:32
by is it by Cheap by twice
39:35
something like that there is a term for
39:38
it but I think a lot of people don't
39:40
consider with something like Santa Cruz
39:41
how long it's going to last them and
39:44
also if you do manage to get one to the
39:46
point of needing to say change the frame
39:48
bearings it's actually a nice job to do
39:50
on those you don't dread working on a
39:53
Santa Cruz so the price isn't it's not
39:57
so black and white it's the you know the
39:59
amount of engineering that's gone into
40:02
yeah I mean in reality most Santa Cruz
40:04
owners don't buy just one Santa Cruz and
40:06
stop there do they so it's like there's
40:09
a
40:10
reasonable are you stereotyping Santa
40:14
Cruz owners there Anthony I'm
40:16
observation based facts
40:21
so Chip you know that that's a the the
40:25
famous Keith Bontrager cheap like strong
40:28
pick any two does that still apply
40:32
I'm just trying to work out now
40:35
and we're not and we're talking bikes
40:36
not kind of cheese or anything I don't
40:39
know does it apply to cheese I guess it
40:41
does doesn't it yeah
40:42
like strawberry cheese I don't know
40:45
anyway a lot of Cheaper bikes are kind
40:48
of a bit lighter than they're more
40:49
expensive counterparts because they'll
40:51
have like 32 mil Forks instead of 36
40:53
ones that sort of thing yeah it's it
40:56
isn't just about
40:58
um the the spec on paper I think they're
41:03
um where possible the bikes are designed
41:05
as as a as a sort of as a whole
41:08
uh with quite often they'll use the same
41:11
frame but you know as I said there's
41:13
there's room to take them more light
41:17
across country and heavier downhill you
41:19
can have a uh a more expensive Enduro
41:24
version of the same bike and it'll be
41:27
heavier because the there's there's a
41:30
different use going on but going back to
41:33
your question
41:34
um I really don't know anymore I'm going
41:36
to have to start looking at at
41:38
everything coming out going oh well you
41:40
know
41:41
maybe there's an editorial there for you
41:44
chips yeah and the the good thing is
41:47
it's it's rare to see things fail these
41:51
days which is very reassuring
41:54
um it did used to be that by the by the
41:57
side of Every Mountain Mike race he went
42:00
to in the late 90s there would be you
42:03
know a a crying man with a broken bike
42:06
uh or or a crank stuck in in his calf
42:10
muscle or uh
42:13
um you know folded Wheels there there
42:16
aren't really that you know there's not
42:18
that trail of Devastation that you get
42:20
it uh you used to get at races and
42:23
certainly a lot of Riders you know can
42:27
can ride out whatever you know damage
42:30
they've got it it is rare to see things
42:32
that snap in half without severe
42:35
provocation so I think from that point
42:37
of view we've we've moved on really you
42:40
know great deal
42:42
and that and that's all built into that
42:44
you know the the weight and the expense
42:46
of modern bikes
42:49
um you know it used to there were all
42:50
sorts of kind of uh not quite Cowboy but
42:55
sort of uh Blue Sky thought uh
42:59
Innovative uh approaches to frame design
43:02
and you know
43:04
um material use in the old days and
43:08
there that is now a lot more scientific
43:11
uh even you know going down to the to
43:15
the cheaper models and going back to
43:18
Keith vontrager uh he was
43:20
I I was riding with him once and he had
43:24
the sort of bog standard you know chunky
43:27
aluminum stem and chunky aluminum bars
43:30
when
43:31
the one track came out had just come out
43:35
with a carbon fiber bar and a carbon
43:38
fiber stem with his name on and I'm sure
43:40
he could probably get one if he asked
43:42
nicely
43:43
and I said well why aren't you riding
43:44
the super cool carbon fiber stuff and he
43:46
said well the thing is we'll we'll sell
43:49
50 of those but we'll sell 2 million
43:53
bikes with this handlebar on stem on if
43:57
that stem snaps then
44:00
then that's a big problem that we'll
44:03
need you know will cause the company all
44:06
sorts of Heartache whereas the sort of
44:10
super high-end stuff that's you know
44:12
it's all been tested it's all strong and
44:13
and that that'll be fine but we're
44:15
really not going to sell many of those
44:16
the thing that needs day-to-day testing
44:19
is the cheap stuff because that's the
44:22
thing that you'll get the biggest number
44:23
of inexperienced Riders on who are going
44:27
to you know drop their bikes fall off
44:28
crash uh they're not just clipping in
44:31
racing for four hours and then
44:32
unclipping and then putting their bike
44:34
back in the humidor they're going to be
44:36
leaving the bike outside they're going
44:38
to be riding to the shops with stuff on
44:40
the handlebars that's that's where you
44:42
want the reliability and that's the most
44:44
important place for a company to have
44:47
that reliability story and so that's why
44:51
cheaper bikes are you know are so much
44:54
better now because they have to be
44:55
because they they just sell in Far
44:58
bigger numbers
44:59
yeah that that sound I think that rounds
45:02
it all up very nicely I think uh what
45:05
have we solved here we've explained why
45:08
we get really silly expensive bikes uh
45:11
We've
45:12
do I think we need to probably as media
45:15
try to make sure that we don't
45:20
reinforce the
45:22
perception that bikes are really
45:24
stupidly expensive all the time it's
45:26
difficult because that's what the
45:28
manufacturers send us and often we don't
45:30
have the choice and we do ask for
45:32
cheaper bikes quite often and uh quite
45:35
often we're we're presented with the
45:37
response of yeah we don't have any of
45:38
those in the Press Fleet but we've got
45:40
this really top of the line one that we
45:42
want to send you so some it's a tricky
45:44
situation for us to be in uh but I hope
45:47
everybody out there understands that um
45:49
that the the silly expensive bikes are
45:53
not always the ones that we uh we we
45:55
seek now we suffer for our art don't we
46:02
quite often those those expensive bikes
46:04
though they will be built up
46:07
um quite often by the uh by the the some
46:10
manufacturers mechanics in the marketing
46:12
department to make sure they work
46:14
perfectly they get sent to us we review
46:16
them that bike will then get recalled
46:19
and take and go into either go to
46:22
another magazine quaff and we send bikes
46:23
between each other at the magazines
46:26
uh and then eventually it'll become
46:28
either a flagship store demo bike or a
46:31
roving demo Fleet test bike whereas the
46:35
cheaper bikes the manufacturer is going
46:37
to basically have to take one off sale
46:40
gonna have to sort of it was in the
46:43
warehouse and it was due to be sent to a
46:44
bike shop to be sold and we'll have to
46:47
they'll have to take it back so that we
46:49
can test the bottom end bike or the
46:51
mid-range bike
46:53
yeah
46:55
we're keeping the affordable ones
46:58
available for you
46:59
that's right let's see what I'm hearing
47:03
with suffering oh can you hear the
47:05
sounds of violins doing it for you
47:09
right well I think we'll round this
47:11
episode up there and uh so just to
47:13
finish off before we all say goodbye I
47:15
just want to remind everybody about that
47:17
25th of November subscriptions
47:19
membership cut off date and don't forget
47:21
that the price of membership is
47:24
increasing for new subscribers from the
47:26
30th so get in before those dates
47:28
preferably before the 25th and then you
47:30
can get the Christmas issue that has the
47:32
free calendar and the last thing I'm
47:34
going to point out is that if you're
47:35
listening to this podcast there is no
47:37
excuse for you not to also be signed up
47:40
to our Weekly Newsletter which features
47:44
lots of editorial from the team
47:46
um it's not just a list of links it's uh
47:48
there's some really good opinions and
47:49
stuff that go in there links to good
47:51
deals and offers from our merch store
47:53
and if you're not getting that in your
47:55
inbox then head over to
47:56
singletrackworld.com forward slash
47:58
newsletter and get yourself signed up
48:00
today so on that note that's where we'll
48:03
say goodbye so it's goodbye from me and
48:05
let's go by from him
48:09
there's goodbye from them
48:11
and me
48:14
we've got to work on the sign off
48:16
properly this is pathetic every week
48:19
isn't it never went right join us next
48:21
week everybody for another single track
48:23
podcast
48:24
[Music]
48:46
foreign
48:52
[Music]
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