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Fresh Goods Friday Podcast: Episode the 13th - Are eMTBs about to be hit with power restrictions?
May 2, 2025
This week German ebike trade companies have started to ask for legislation to limit the maximum power of ebikes. Why are they doing this and what does it actually mean for us off road types? We get into the weeds of this story and explain some important differences between power ratings and what the law says you can and can't do with ae eBike motor.
Plus Benji explains why he hates drop bars and how gravel riding is really not for him.
Plus get 30 days free access to the Join.cc training app with our podcast sponsor Join.cc. Head to https://join.cc/singletrack
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0:22
hi welcome to this week's Single Track World podcast I'm Hannah managing editor
0:27
and this is Benjamin Howeth technical editor Oh yeah I forgot my second name
0:33
Hannah Dobson I might I might share Don't like to use it No don't Okay This
0:38
week we are going to talk about the thing that's on my knees but we'll come to that We're going to talk about you
0:45
riding the thing that's behind me And we're going to talk about you breaking
0:50
the internet The thing that's behind me Oh Oh god I've done the whole thing Like
0:56
people are listening aren't they with their ears Some are Some are also Okay The thing that's on my knees the mystery
1:01
thing that's on my knees is a DMR sweeper bar Mhm The thing behind me is a
1:07
Kona Oh don't Uro Boros Oh yeah I think it's quite remember Well yeah you can
1:13
remember but they're now still an Uro Boros I think Yep Carbon gravel Yeah And
1:20
then and then Benji broke the internet So let's start with the gravel machine
1:25
because you this is your first dabblings really with gravel You've had this and
1:31
got a singular as well Yeah singular swift chopping and changing peragin Paragrin Okay Yeah Paragin Mark three or
1:39
something Okay So that one's that's also blue That one's blue but it's steel isn't it yes Whereas this one is this
1:47
one carbonium Yeah Okay Sure is And what observations have you about gravel then
1:57
as I mentioned to someone earlier today it was find it very
2:03
hard to take it to places that I enjoy riding
2:09
It's all right if I'm on it Stuff that I don't particularly enjoy doing like means to
2:17
an end stuff They're all right better than probably being on a mountain bike But then I do find I've finished the
2:23
ride and I haven't done anything I've enjoyed But you particularly enjoy like steep techers don't you i like
2:30
narrow tracks and single track Yeah But but you can get narrow single track on
2:36
these That's fine It's just that when it points super steep downhill then it becomes a little bit more like I don't
2:42
think they're any good on anything apart from fire roads which is what they're for isn't it oh that's can't complain
2:49
You just need more practice They aren't good at them are they they will just about survive but it's not like a lovely
2:55
flowing man machine moment for me You need to go and find flipping heck You
3:00
need to go and find a little bit of single track that you take your kids on and then ride it on That That's also
3:05
good on a mountain bike My point being they're never better than a mountain bike apart from the stuff you don't
3:11
really want to do That's what I found You asked You need to go and ride I prefer the
3:17
singular Do you know why cuz it looks the best And you spend a lot of time on the stuff you end up bottom looking at
3:23
your bike Well again I think you're going wrong cuz you need to be looking where you're going and looking at the
3:28
scenery and not looking at your bike No wonder it's frightening you and boring and whatever which is not for me which
3:34
is fine It's kind of It's not an unexpected result They're all right They're all right They're all right Well
3:40
I'd rather have I'd rather do that than go on a road bike which is devoid of anything good
3:46
Just terrifying I agree with you for once I just I tell you it's just drop bars They're awful everywhere And I've
3:52
never and continue to not understand why you would have them
3:58
So yeah that would be great So much nicer with a flat bar that coder That's every time I'm like be loads better Do
4:05
you not you need to be on it for longer then so that you appreciate having a choice of different positions or also
4:11
into a head balls That just means all the positions are wrong and you have to keep moving That's honestly oh they got
4:17
multiple hand positions I never want multiple hand positions on a mountain bike because they are
4:23
correct It just it's a it's a negative that people spin into a positive They're
4:29
only for arrow and if you don't need arrow they're pointless Okay So you want we
4:34
need more headwinds for you then Yeah Okay If we have headwinds for the next
4:40
one we'll blame it on Benji So okay Yeah
4:46
Well we'll let Benji calm down a little while No it's fine While we go to an ad break
4:55
So the sponsor of this episode is join.cc Yes I've heard of them Yeah you've heard of them They're um they're a training
5:02
app specifically designed for cyclists Join is an app that takes whatever level
5:08
of fitness you're at and whatever goal you want to achieve to work out a training plan to get there You tell it
5:14
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5:20
having a personal trainer in your pocket It takes everything into account like your age your fitness levels what kind
5:26
of riding you prefer to do And for me it even incorporates off bike training There's a bunch of material available in
5:33
the app and I read a great article on weight training for those of us at a certain age range I had no idea that as
5:39
you get older you benefit more from weight training to maintain fitness So that's now part of my training Okay Did
5:46
you know that no Yeah We should be picking stuff up and putting it down again Apparently at our age I do that quite a lot but it's only small items
5:54
such as remote controls So join also connects to all your other apps So it joins to Straa it joins to Garmin it
6:01
joins to all the sort of built-in stuff If you've got an Apple Watch it's got the fitness stuff Pulls all that data in
6:08
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6:21
by heading to join.cc/sler CC slash symbol track
6:31
Okay Cona H It's not Cona's fault
6:37
They're all right They're all right Fine He's still going Welcome back from after the adbreak We're going to move on
6:45
before he had some sort of aneurysm Yeah
6:50
Okay So this week other people had aneurysms because you broke the internet
6:55
a bit You got with my with your opinions portrait picture of No it was that it
7:01
was Kardashian woman What what what did you write about this week Benji in an opinionated fashion No
7:08
it wasn't It was full of facts Well there's a lot of story Yeah there been quite a few stories came out end of last
7:14
week about the German bike industry collective called
7:21
Ziv Don't speak enough German to know what that is Oh we should have Yeah Zurich No Why would it be Zurich it'll
7:28
be all joined into one and it'll take you a week to say it Yeah Yeah Um just
7:33
introducing they're worried about the pedal assist bicycles getting
7:38
more and more top end peak power Mhm
7:44
Because it's straying I just don't think they they're worried it's hard to explain It's not
7:51
like they're worried about people's safety particularly or anything like that It's more about they will start to
7:58
attract the attention of the tax man in my opinion really or or legislators Yeah
8:05
legislator They're not being used as bicycle plus
8:10
um they're going a bit too far and you're going to become a different
8:16
they're going to get reclassified um is the worry isn't it so that they that all mountain bikes will
8:23
be treated like uh e motorbikes basically and like you've got the
8:29
American system of different classes where only a few like one sort is allowed on a limited number of trails Um
8:37
yeah the Germans are worried that it's going to end up like that in Europe where we just ban all of them from
8:45
trails um and we'd all lose our access Yeah So that was what and Hans Ray was
8:52
there talking about it as well I honestly don't think they're worried about Hans Ray is at all really They're
8:58
more worried about the bigger picture I imagine which is genuinely not mountain bikes is it it's car replacement
9:05
vehicles is a much bigger market So that's what they're trying to protect
9:10
really And what the thing is like they cut out at a certain they stop assisting at a certain
9:16
speed So all right Yeah thousand watts We're still only going to go 15 miles an
9:22
hour Okay before we confuse anyone any further what we're going to go for a
9:29
little science lesson with Mark
9:36
Okay so we have maths master Sir sir please can you tell me
9:42
what's it all about what's all this what stuff what's the what i didn't I didn't I didn't teach maths actually It's
9:49
physics I mean physics is just practical maths All maths It is all maths You have all math No I I'm I'm here for one
9:55
reason only which is that there's there's as Benji actually explained there's a lot of confusion around ebikes
10:02
and about what's legal what's not about the numbers that come with ebikes And I just thought I'd just add a little bit
10:08
of clarity where I can Okay And one of the this week's story is all about the
10:16
maximum power It's all about potentially restricting the maximum power that an
10:22
ebike can actually produce Okay Now is that connected to the battery or to the
10:28
motor it's it's both It's mostly the motor That's where you know it's the motor that generates the power It gets
10:34
its energy for that power from the battery But as people who have been have got
10:40
ebikes will know especially in the EU um there is we be a lot of people will be
10:46
familiar with the the rule the law as it stands right now which restricts the power output of an ebike
10:54
to 250 W Mhm Now this creates a very confusing question is what on earth is
11:02
um and what on earth is Bosch doing and DJI and all the manufacturers around
11:07
this story talk why are they talking about 750 watts why are they talking about 1,000 watts if the limit is 250
11:14
watts what's all this talk of 1,00 watts this is where the confusion is and it to and and the clarity comes in the fact
11:21
that there are two values that you need to take into account when you're talking about an ebike and the power right one
11:27
is the um the average power output Okkey do and the limit for that is 250 W and
11:36
no one's talking about changing that But then there is the maximum power output Now that is what is being talked about
11:43
being restricted and being limited And how long do you have to maintain an
11:48
average for versus a maximum for like this is Yeah exactly That's the question
11:54
It's it's that 250 average value is really when you actually look at the the legislation and
12:01
the regulations around it It's really confusing and it's really complicated It's to do with the rise in temperature
12:08
of the motor when it is being run at a certain power output for a certain
12:14
length of time Now I believe it's about a half an hour period The motor has to
12:20
run at 250 W or for 30 minutes and it
12:25
can't the temperature of the motor cannot rise beyond a certain limit which is I mean you imagine how bonkers that
12:31
is How do you police an ice bath or something yeah How do you even police that i mean the fundamental is it's the
12:38
manufacturers who have to adhere to that They're the ones who are responsible for making sure that the motor that you buy
12:43
is compliant So it's down to the motor manufacturers It's down to the Bosch it's down to the DJIs it's down to the
12:49
Shimanos They they are the ones who have to worry about that So theoretically if it's out of the shop it's on your bike
12:56
you haven't chipped it it will comply to that regulation You just have to take that on faith basically cuz how on earth
13:03
are you going to test it so anyway so there's the two Now people who are into
13:08
their audio and into speakers and amplifiers will probably be familiar
13:13
with the back of their speakers where there's two values written on the back of your speaker One will say the RMS
13:20
value of the speaker is like 50 W So that's the amount of power that speaker can put out But then it'll say peak
13:26
power something like 500 watt Now audio files will know what this
13:32
is about And so uh audio files will understand what the what the deal is with ebikes I'm pretty sure that small
13:38
number 50 watts is what that speaker can put out The amount of energy it can continuously run without breaking a
13:44
sweat right without overheating and can just do that all day The peak is what it
13:49
could put out Like if you put some massive thrash that's when you start to sound like Jimmyi Hendris Absolutely you
13:55
know you start you know the axeman is back and you start thrashing out some um some ripping cords on your on your
14:01
guitar and you suddenly blow uh the speaker just puts out an enormous amount
14:06
of sound The peak is what it can do for a very short period of time And if you
14:12
ran if the amplifier was running 500 watts through your 50 watt speaker for
14:17
more than a few seconds it will blow it Oh but it can handle it for a very brief
14:22
period of time So another analogy to understand the difference between this uh 250 watts limit and this 1,00 watts
14:31
peak Imagine you've just bought your car and on the clock on the speedometer it
14:37
goes all the way up to 180 Mhm Now that means your car can go 180 You could put
14:44
your foot down on the motorway You could All right we're breaking laws I'm not advocating any of this but theoretically on the track you could put your foot
14:50
down and your car could hit 180 But if you stayed at 180 for very long you're
14:56
going to blow the engine Mhm That's peak power So what the motor can do and
15:04
continuously do all day needs to be restricted to a maximum of 250 watts But
15:09
that peak any ebike can have a peak And that's the thing that's been discussed
15:15
in this story And that's the part of the whole equation that is being debated
15:20
Should it be restricted or not okay Uh questions on postcards Come and see Mark
15:28
after class Thank you for that Mark Thank you very much
15:36
What's my line oh yeah Anyhoo Okay So
15:42
thank you for that Mark we will hand our homework in late and with with some
15:49
cereal smeared on it Yeah So wattage peak power is what we're talking about And the other thing that's more
15:56
interesting or more revelatory is something called the support ratio Oo Which is about how much
16:04
the motor will be allowed to give out from that But it's dependent on how much your legs are putting in Oh so you can't
16:11
just like soft pedal and then zoom along at maximum speed Yeah So they want to be for up until any of the speed
16:17
restrictions which is 15 mph or 20 mph or a pond you need to be putting in to
16:24
get for example let's make this easy 400 watts of support from the motor you need
16:30
to be putting in 100 through your feet like a one to four thing Yeah The other confusing thing is they are prepared to
16:37
go up to one to six So you can put in 100 which is kind of about what we'd be putting in Uh that would give once you
16:45
would allow you to have 600 watts but the speed restriction would kick in
16:51
at 15 km an hour okay or whatever that is in miles an hour So you could softer
16:58
pedal but you would hit your max speed You can get more power but it's only
17:04
when you got really slowly like that Oh I see handy possibly if you've got a really heavy bike like a cargo bike or
17:09
something like that I did think of that cuz I'm selfish and I was just thinking about technical climbing off road But yeah Okay So that I guess some of that
17:18
has potential implications for the adaptive market for whom ebikes have
17:24
been pretty revoly and have allowed people to go to a standard bike shop and
17:32
buy a bike that will help them ride rather than having to buy a really
17:37
expensive off you know off the not off the peg What's the opposite of off the peg bespoke Yeah Like um machine Yeah Um
17:46
so yeah those limitations could be an issue Yeah Because if they're only
17:51
willing or able to put in I don't know 50 watts If you're only allowed support of 1 to four that's 200 watts Sorry 250
18:01
watts total That ain't going to get your groceries over the Hov hill Yeah And
18:09
then that opens up the thing of well if there's a a need somewhere in
18:16
the market for even if you had to prove your need or something like that the technology would have to be able to do
18:22
it and actually it would be better if it was not possible for the technology to
18:28
be chipped altered wouldn't it in the first place because okay if you've got
18:34
the ability to make it do one to four or
18:40
one to six then presumably somebody else is going to make it go one to one or one
18:47
to 10 or whatever Like um yeah like if you can you can mess with it a bit you
18:52
can mess with it a lot probably Well a lot of it is locking it down would be better Yeah Part of me is thinking a bit
19:00
like the access rules where bicycles aligned to horses
19:05
Um why it just means it's unfortunate but don't you think those two markets should be split anyway
19:13
what like recreational fun messing about ebikes versus getting around disabled
19:20
bikes I don't know why they're under the same thing at all I think because by not
19:27
having them as a niche it makes them more accessible more achievable to buy and like cheaper and more available Why
19:34
should you have to buy a specialist thing so well that Yeah So they don't
19:41
have to but on the new rules they could just keep going on the ones that are
19:46
only going to give them perhaps not enough power And otherwise you'd have to you know like when you go to Germany and
19:52
you just go to effectively anote center and get a sticker that allows you to drive around No Well just and their
20:00
lives I know their lives are already full of freaking admin They could do without as it is but I don't see why it'
20:06
be much unenforcable No I think that's a whole bag of
20:13
worms to mix your metaphors Mhm I don't know Huh Okay And then but I think what
20:21
I saw Hans Ray talking about was a kind of as bike riders we need to
20:29
self-regulate in some way And as bike riders in the bike industry because if we don't do something ourselves it'll be
20:37
done to us by other people possibly the motor industry that doesn't want us to
20:44
uh replace our cars or possibly by people that just want to restrict our
20:50
land access as well Um so yeah I mean
20:55
how would you feel about it if they said no you can't ride an ebike uh out in the wild you can only ride an
21:02
ebike at a designated bike park
21:08
Um I don't know because I've already been told things that I don't adhere to as it is We don't stay where you're
21:16
supposed to on a bicycle do we not in the real world Yeah But you know they could you know you could have different
21:22
No not police even go and have a look at burglaries Standing on foot paths Yeah
21:29
But if they made it a made it a criminal offense it would be different wouldn't it you know they'd be coming after us
21:36
like what they go after people on motorbikes I don't think they Yeah I know So I don't think they I don't think
21:43
anything needs to be I I don't know what they are Well the other thing is I presume
21:51
he's talking more about America side of things Hans Ray no he
21:59
spends a lot of time in the UK and in Germany but then he started using things like class one He's not speaking to a
22:05
Yeah that's the American system Yeah So and their cut off is 20 isn't it which
22:11
is quite a bit different to 15 If you if it's a scientist you'll know
22:17
there's quite a big difference between those 33% faster Um
22:26
and I don't know Oh I just think the level of uh I don't know I don't know I don't
22:34
know I'm just not I don't think the rest of the world should have to worry about
22:39
America's problem It's a lot of it Their system's rubbish for all
22:45
off-road cycling From what I can see from my distance it's imperiled because there's no it's there's no
22:51
public rights of way or whatever And the whole media particularly mountain bike
22:57
media has spent the past uh 12 years sneering and berating ebikes
23:04
So the ebikers aren't going to listen to anything that uh mountain bikers say
23:11
over there Never mind In the UK the government has recently conducted a
23:17
consultation about reclassifying ebikes um and including cargo style delivery
23:24
ones Um and that consultation concluded
23:30
that they weren't going to do any reclassification at the moment But
23:36
there's still another study going on now into like an inquiry into the whole kind
23:42
of deliveroo thing Um you know the the kits that are
23:49
generally unregulated in lots of different ways And those are the these
23:54
retrofit kits are the things that are bigger source of fires as well So there
24:00
there's there's a there's another concern kind of coming for ebikes in the
24:06
UK So I think there's going to be another bite at this regulation of eBikes I don't think I don't think it's
24:14
over yet So the government's going to go with whatever brings them the most
24:20
revenue which will be status quo and they'll just add a levy to delivery type
24:28
creations whatever Do you think yeah I do Because money rules particularly
24:34
HMRC So they're not going to throw that revenue away Even if it was the right
24:41
thing to do you just won't do it But Deliveroo things it's
24:47
well so they're looking at potentially have to buzz out Deliveroo from this courier They are uh talking about
24:56
creating legislation that would make the safety of the the gig workers the
25:03
responsibility of the companies Yeah And so then that would discourage
25:10
uh the chipping and the retrofitting and all the rest of it because at the moment they're incentivized by being paid crap
25:16
unless you deliver quick and fast and all the rest of it Um like you're incentivized to go faster Yeah I mean
25:22
the thing about new legislation the legislation already exists that should be dealing with these uh dodgy setups
25:30
already It doesn't need anymore just isn't being enforced because it's impossible given the uh resources of the
25:38
authorities They don't need anymore Do you think the deliveries are are um
25:43
they're already illegal and doing stuff they shouldn't be doing under the current legislation we don't
25:50
If anything it's probably people who write for bigger media
25:55
channels probably need to know what the difference between a sewer on and a pedal assist mountain bike is Yes
26:01
because it's too hard to understand It is isn't it they're ebikes Yeah Well
26:07
they are But anyway this has just reminded me uh that in the
26:15
June issue of Single Track World I interview Mike Sanderson who's the man
26:22
behind uh the Caliber Bossnut among other bikes He's on his CV Yeah Yeah
26:29
and he tells me about the ebike testing process um in in that and the things
26:37
that are involved and how you can have all the components that are individually
26:43
tested But then you also have to put them together and test them once you've put
26:49
them on a bike and put them all together because they can do weird things when you combine these electricals or if you
26:56
like wrap a cable in a certain way or whatever So the the legitimate ebike
27:02
testing process is quite tricky and so you can see why people be frustrated
27:09
that kind of untested unregulated products come into the country and then
27:16
they have to go through all of this um yeah shenanigans to anyway it's quite
27:21
interesting Yeah But if you subscribe I can't get a frame and hang on a sec Hang on Hold that thought Hold that thought
27:28
because if you subscribe at the moment your name will be on the list for the
27:34
June issue first up against the wall and then you'll we'll send you if you if you
27:39
subscribe for a print edition at the moment we'll send you the current edition as well You get two two issues
27:48
for get a free issue Yes So anyway go on go on with that thought Oh god what was
27:53
I saying that was a I don't know It might maybe it wasn't Well like the whole uh ebikes needs to be sold as a
27:59
system is reason why everyone's not everyone's stay all the brands have
28:05
stayed away from selling frame sets only rather than complete bikes Technically you can sell a frame set but
28:13
it's a funny area Oh okay This has got quite nerdy this conversation but the
28:19
main problem with ebikes is confusion isn't it always has been Name your
28:25
favorite confusion themed tune What's Confusion uh what's yours
28:34
i don't know who it's by All this confusion Oh I don't know that one I think it was a bit of a mid '90s one
28:39
that was on all the time I was just thinking days and confused That's Oh that's Led Zeppelin I don't don't say
28:45
that Disappointed me You're always quick with the songs Benji Must be the heat getting
28:51
to you Days are confused Led Zeppelinusion New Order Oh yeah Yeah It's all right That one That's not the
28:58
one It was on a now like now 21 or something I think the one that I was thinking Anyway uh yes On then to the
29:06
product section of the show Uh we have here what is it dmr Sweeper 12 which is
29:15
a much more swept back handlebar than usual 12 degrees of bangness Backness
29:24
Okay So we have like the full handlebar mustache effect here with like wrap around your cheeks kind of angle Then uh
29:32
it says 35 mil rise Yep 31.8 mil clamp which is the best clamp 5° up normal 12°
29:41
back Sweep in a nice nice sweepy swoopy
29:46
logo Yep 75 quid to you from DMR Yep
29:51
Why why are these swept back more cuz you want to tuck your elbows in It's
29:58
options isn't it i think some people are messing about with more swept back uh handlebars for wrist reasons I think
30:06
uh what I would say is after presenting it offering it up to a bicycle today you
30:13
put a much longer stem on than you think if you want your grips in the same place
30:18
Oh okay Oo they are really whatever that is 20 mil further back right so if you
30:26
put them on something it's like putting a really So I don't know I had 15 mil to
30:32
your stem length So it's another thing you have to go by My god Or if your bike was a bit long you could
30:39
put them on and it would bring your handlebars forward Yeah That's the other thing people are doing Yeah Is so to get like the grips through your stem cat
30:46
bolt by Moto Yeah Because you could put it on with like a normal stem and then
30:51
the back sweep would make it so that your hands were kind of where your Yeah where your stem bolt is Yeah I think you
30:58
do need quite a long bike So I'm struggling to think of what we can put them on At Bespoke there was the
31:06
creature cycles uh mountain bike that had
31:11
the like zero length stem It's just on top on top of the stem that he he' made
31:18
for a while Y which I don't mind the idea of really I just can't I think you need the whole bike Well he built the
31:24
whole bike So he'd made the bike long so that you could put the put the handlebars on top of the go I might see
31:30
if we could sort out a test bike that's got like a 520 reach and put that on Oh
31:36
I'll have to check my notes There'll be a bike check of that one to come because
31:43
I I spoke to him I can't remember his name because I met too many people at this boat Dave Creature
31:49
I don't know He might be called Dave There was a few Daves there Yeah Um but he lives in the Duby Valley and he's
31:56
devised it not to ride the bike part there but to ride all the natural stuff where you can pedal up and then slither
32:03
on down the steep stuff which is just the kind of thing you like to ride Is it great so it might v it might be just the
32:09
sort of thing that you want to ride Well I do like the idea of your hand your hands being in line with your
32:17
um tire contact patch makes a lot of sense to me I can't remember how tall he
32:22
was as compared to you 5'11 So no idea Uh yeah I'll have to look But so there
32:28
will be that coming on the website at some point There's already a couple of like bike check come interviews on the
32:35
website singlerworld.com um from bespoked which was great fun
32:41
Loads of interesting bicycles You missed out if you weren't there The Dresden edition is much bigger Yeah imagine and
32:50
is in October October Okay Yeah I am kind of hoping to go there after October
32:57
Fest So in September Uh so yeah Very good Right I think that
33:03
was quite enough of that today Jiba Jaba rules regulations
33:09
That was possibly our nerdiest edition yet Yeah So next week we should probably
33:15
do like free ride sick stoke I don't know like what kids do
33:24
Stoke silly Come on Okay we can do it We can do it
33:30
We can be cool and stoked Thanks for being here See you all next
33:35
week Bye Oh we need to do like stoke fingers I can't That's from me I keep
33:41
doing that That That's the Is it that one or is it that one i I don't know Ma
33:46
freaking thing I don't do anything Well that's that
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