But if anything Z2 should leave glycogen reserves intact?

You’ll always use some.

Oh now that’s weird, I find I don’t really need to eat that much.

Yep, we vary a lot both genetically, because of how we ride and also because of what we eat which affects our gut biome.

I’m really good at eating carbs – but is that because I habitually eat a lot of them, or do I want to eat a lot of them because I’m good at digesting them? Probably a bit of both.

I can’t seem to eat enough for long easy rides, massive bowl of porridge for breakfast then the first hour or so unfuelled then approximately 60-90g carbs for the remaining 2-3hrs.

I find it best to eat early in that first hour and then drop it lower in the second half but have an emergency get me home gel just in case. I usually start on a carbed bottle and then switch to plain water when that’s gone. Get home, drink a lot and then have a normal meal later.

Not beer though, I find that doesn’t help

Walks slowly into the room and throws in this one….

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/143756-aerobic-adaptations-from-lt2-vs-fatmax/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-2018518

And runs back out before the chaos ensues 😉

^ from that poster’s Q

t.I think the argument is that at this level the mitochondria in the slow twitch fibres are burning fat and this will encourage them to get better at doing this.

It gets dismissed. I thought the point of Z2 time was nothing to do with fat burning, all to do with the basis of cardio capacity that you then tune up with HI work.

I have done fasted riding and periods of that went along with me becoming a better endurance rider, more steady in energy levels, but it was alongside other riding habits and training so hard to say what does what.

he current “Train slow to ride fast” fashion seems to recommend riding at around LT1/FatMax/Zone2 for aerobic development.I think the argument is that at this level the mitochondria in the slow twitch fibres are burning fat and this will encourage them to get better at doing this.

That isn’t actually what Dr ISM says though…. When Peter Attia points out that 2mmol of lactate (what the ‘talk test’ is supposed to be a proxy for) occurs after FatMax and asks him where he would prescribe people to ride, he says ‘somewhere in the middle’.
The idea isn’t to ride there because it’s FatMax (that’s more of a happy coincidence) or to make them better at burning fat alone but because its where you can maximally stress the slow twitch mitochondria without incurring the oxidative stress that occurs when you start ramping up the carbs and giving them lactate to process.

Humour me here:

To reuse the Diesel/Electric motor analogy above: let us assume we want to redline [training stress] our Diesel engine [slow twitch muscle fibres] in order to force the mechanic to bolt in a bigger capacity one after he checks the ECU data back at the pub [adaptation].

Let’s imagine the electric motor also produces vegetable oil as a bi-product that drains into the diesel fuel injection system [lactate].

It doesn’t actually matter if the electric engine [carbs] is powering the lights and the radio and dripping a few mils of veg oil into the diesel tank [resting lactate]- you just want to make sure the Diesel engine is being revved to the red line [to give the engineer that data point] rather than getting a dose of extra horsepower from electric AND veg oil that will clog the filters [stress the mitochondria] and drop the revs [no adaptation stimulus to the engineer].

Go above the talk test and the electric motor cuts in fully to give you all the power you need and the Diesel engine goes back to tick over and is mainly running just to find a home for the veg oil.

This also shows how once you have a 4.0l v8 diesel installed [big aerobic base], you can handle as much veg-oil as the electric motor can throw at it without clogging the filters- ie Z2 training gives you a greater work capacity full stop.

Walks slowly into the room and throws in this one….

We’ll, I can verifiy that lots of z2 riding does dramatically improve the ability to burn fat in at least one person – me. The change in results was huge.

But even then, there’s another aspect which is repeatability. Even if sweet spot is more efficient you might only be able to manage 2 sessions a week, but you may be fine on four z2 sessions.

And there are other aspects, for example if you are struggling to lose weight you might find that sweet spot training drives your appetite much higher than z2. I don’t thnk you can diet if you are riding at more than z2 for long. At least, I can’t

I got decent endurance fitness (in my limited way) from just general riding (well, lots of it) around where I live and regular food, with the occasional protein recovery shake. Oh and lots of roller work and stretching.

The part of me that got fatigued most was my leg muscles, not my cardiovascular system.

I think all these different sports diets and differing training programs are really aimed at the elite athlete who’s fitness has plateau’d. For most folk on here, it’s like owning a 1300 Corsa and spending £2k on a pair of magnesium wheels to save a few kilogrammes.

For me, taking an interest in my training has always been about focus. I want to know that I am getting the best value out of how I organise my hour/day/week/month/season of riding.

There’s really no need to overcomplicate things beyond what Stephen Magness says on Twitter (I can’t be bothered to find it again so paraphrasing a bit) “Train lots, mostly easy, occasionally hard and rarely go visit God!”

I think where the bike is different than running though is that: you aren’t limited by your physique in the same way. Ie because there is no impact to deal with (which kind of limits how much cardio a beginner or amateur runner can do), you can actually push yourself way harder, way more often than your body is designed for.
If you think of our ancestry, we evolved to mostly walk, sprint a few times a week dodging a predator and occasionally spend a day jogging a buffalo to exhaustion. ie Tempo/sweetspot was a rarity- easy pace was the norm.

So actually, organising your fitness in that same 80/20 model makes sense.

The commercialisation of coaching and training software has also meant people selling snake oil about subtly different plans and zones but if you go back to Friel (who was initially selling guidance books not plans), Z2 or under make up the bulk of the work you will do if you follow his methodology to create your own plan.
Gradually, as you approach your A race, your hard days get harder but your easy days become easier still to compensate.

I think where ISM has moved things along is by saying we should chase an internal condition/feeling (lactate level/talk test) rather than a power/hr zone. If he sold power meters or zone based training plans- he likely wouldn’t have done that!
But a Friel plan from an early edition of his book, training by HR, would have got you riding so close to that spot as to make no difference.
Friel also didn’t make reference to training hours. You can use a Friel book to make yourself a 6h a week plan or a 30h a week plan- both will have lots of Z2.

I had my Zwift race phase and my Trainerroad Sweetspot Base phase but both ultimately resulted in plateaus. Where as Z2 seems like a return to the real secret of long term fitness- consistency and a steady ramp rate.

@molgrips

We’ll, I can verifiy that lots of z2 riding does dramatically improve the ability to burn fat in at least one person – me. The change in results was huge.

Out of interest, can you quantify that? E.g. I assume you actually lost weight – what sort of values are we talking about here, for what number of Z2 hours or sessions? Approx will do! 😉

@crosshair

I agree with what you’re saying but I think you could look at what you’re saying but from a different perspective.

When we were hunter gatherer types (or even when I was an electrician come to think about it), you were active for 8-12 hours a day. So you couldn’t afford to go above zone 2 type efforts as you wouldn’t be recovered enough for the next days 8-12 hours of work. Plus zone 1/2 are the most energy efficient way to do work.

But I don’t have the opportunity of being active for 8-12 hours a day (as most folk probably are) now I’m office based (if you include the 2 hour car commute, I’m seated for nearly 11 hours a day). So now I try to maximise my time to:
a. Maintain my current fitness and mass
b. Gain fitness and lose a bit of mass
c. Enjoy my exercise (they don’t call zone 3 happy hard for no reason)

Zone 1/2 is pretty dull, time consuming and takes a long time to have any affect on your fitness.

But in an ideal world I’d be riding my bike for as many hours a day as I could. Which would mean mostly in zone 1/2 as this is the most efficient and sustainable effort level.

BTW: I’m loving the analogies Moly and Crosshair!

Another thing to add about sweetspot as I see it.

It should be repeatable throughout the week.

I normally aim to do about a 40 minute sweetspot training session.

If you’re too tired or sore to do another sweetspot session the next day then you’re very likely riding too hard and not at sweetspot at all.

Well that’s where the z2 v sweetspot clan wars crop up 😀
Sweetspot may be repeatable but it is still layering on autonomic stress, likely too often to truly recover from.

What you are saying does make sense. And will work. And will even drag your aerobic fitness up to a point too.

And if it motivates you to get on your bike when riding easier doesn’t- then it has to be right.

What’s curious to me (I’m averaging 11h a week for the year but I used to be more like 6/7) is whether it’s optimal.

All the things we’ve discussed here make me think now that it’s not.

It’s almost splitting hairs given how close 75% (top of z2) and 85% (sweetspot) of ftp are in practical terms but regardless of training hours, two upper Z2 sessions a week would form the basis of my plan even on 5-6h a week. Another two would be easy aerobic spins or an extra Z2 if feeling good. Then that would leave a day a week to go truly, properly, painfully hard. I’d probably alternate between a Zwfit race/chaingang one week and a structured interval session the next.

I truly believe that would leave anybody feeling fresher for longer with less recovery/easy weeks/time off for illness needed each year.

The only time I’d add sweetspot or threshold work is if it was event specific. Then I’d do an 8-12 week progression in place of my hard weekly interval or race session.

If you’re too tired or sore to do another sweetspot session the next day then you’re very likely riding too hard and not at sweetspot at all

Unless of course your sweetspot workouts are spent progressively increasing time in that zone, which you’d probably want to do if you’re hoping to get anything out of it?

@Haze

This kind of goes against my understanding of sweetspot training adaptation (and all training adaptation really).

You get fitter and your FTP goes up.

So you can go faster for the same effort but your effort is the same…… at sweetspot.

You’re not looking to overload your sweetspot session else this isn’t sweetspot, it is threshold training.

Another thing that I really should have clarified and maybe should be clarified in every discussion of zonal training. Is the zonal system you are working to (there’s a few out there from 3 to 7 and maybe even more!)

I’m working to the Garmin 5 zone heart rate system

Zone 1 (Warm Up)

Perceived exertion: Relaxed, easy pace, rhythmic breathing.

Benefits: Beginning-level aerobic training, reduces stress.

Zone 2 (Easy)

Perceived exertion: Comfortable pace, slightly deeper breathing, conversation possible.

Benefits: Basic cardiovascular training, good recovery pace.

Zone 3 (Aerobic)

Perceived exertion: Moderate pace, more difficult to hold conversation.

Benefits: Improved aerobic capacity, optimal cardiovascular training.

Zone 4 (Threshold)

Perceived exertion: Fast pace and a bit uncomfortable, breathing forceful.

Benefits: Improved anaerobic capacity and threshold, improved speed.

Zone 5 (Maximum)

Perceived exertion: Sprinting pace, unsustainable for long period of time, labored breathing.

Benefits: Anaerobic and muscular endurance, increased power.

So sweet spot for me is upper zone 3 to lower zone 4 or 88-93% of your FTP or 75-85% of your maximum heart rate (MHR). I know your heart rate creeps up during exercise but I tend to look at my average heart rate and go by RPE.

But at some point (not that long) your ftp gets as far away from your aerobic threshold as it can go. That’s why these type of plans have a shelf life. That’s when you need to raise the floor.

Chris Carmichael obviously wrote his time crunched training plan book a long time ago talking about how to hack fitness on low volume.
But he also explicitly says this:

And I think the same applies to sweetspot.

That’s interesting because I noticed over the last couple of years (where I use a fair bit of sweetspot training especially over winter) my body feeling like crap for a week or so about every 12 weeks. I have been just backing off for a week or so then going back to what I was doing before.

For sure 👍🏻 The switch to a Z2 philosophy (especially from Peter Attia who’s entire ethos is based around fending off death- not cycle training) is more about setting a sustainable baseline of weekly activity. Kind of a zen like devotion to your mitochondria 🤣
Then, a couple of times a year, you add your 12 weeks of intensity at just the right time to peak for whatever excites you most.

As I’ve probably said already “FTP for vanity, aerobic threshold for sanity” 😀

I think all these different sports diets and differing training programs are really aimed at the elite athlete who’s fitness has plateau’d. For most folk on here, it’s like owning a 1300 Corsa and spending £2k on a pair of magnesium wheels to save a few kilogrammes.

Weeeell, I’m going to have to go ahead and disagree 😉

I would say it’s more like owning a 1300 Corsa but learning how to drive it properly. No matter how slow you are, your training will be more effective if it’s targetted. Sure, you can get faster just riding generally, and that’s absolutely fine – you’re here to have fun after all. But if you want to get as fast as possible as quickly as possible then structured training will be better. Or if you want to get the most out of your available time. Or, if you just like understanding how things work!

Out of interest, can you quantify that? E.g. I assume you actually lost weight – what sort of values are we talking about here, for what number of Z2 hours or sessions? Approx will do!

This was in about 2005 or so, I signed up with a coach. Previously I’d been hammering about all over the place, doing 2-4hr rides randomly. The first thing the coach did was a blood lactate ramp test where you gradually increase load and measure blood lactate with a little device. You’re supposed to see no increase in blood lactate until you hit a certain point which is known variously as lactate threshold, lower threshold. FT1, talk-test limit etc. Then your blood lactate levels start to go up because you start consuming stored glycogen (carbs) rather than mostly just fat. So a sort of hockey stick shape, like this:

The better you are at burning fat, the higher the power at which the graph starts to rise. Base training is meant to move this point to the right. However, for me there was no flat section at all, the lactate was above base levels at all levels of exertion. Coach had never seen it before. A bit like this:

Although not quite that extreme – this is for runners, and all cyclists have more of an endurance focus than an on-foot sprinter whose longest race might only be 20 seconds.

I was prescribed about 9hrs of z2 per week, of which I did about 6-8 ish for 6 weeks. He had to guess at my z2 power since there was actually no indication of it from the graph. Burt 6 weeks later I had a graph that looked like it’s meant to with a proper flat section up to 200W. So in that time I’d trained myself to actually ride on fat whereas before I really wasn’t. I did lose weight, but that’s difficult to quantify because I’d also changed my diet a lot.

My riding performance changed loads too. Previously I’d ride for 4 hours but often end up knackered and feeling crappy, sometimes after 2 or 3. I’d be a right whiner at the end, or I’d plead to cut it short. But after doing this I’d finish every ride and whilst I’d still be tired I had reserves of strength to keep going, and I felt much better doing it. Since then, I’ve done less z2 and really less riding, mostly, but I’ve never gone back to the way I was before.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and the different ideas in. My question is though, do you enjoy your riding?
I read all this training this, nutrition that, fasted riding, zone 2 blah blah blah and most people who I meet riding who talk about this sort of stuff could just do with riding their bikes more and quit worrying but then that’s maybe a self selecting group as it’s affluent, middle class aging men mostly? You don’t need a fancy power meter you need to lose weight and ride more!!

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and the different ideas in. My question is though, do you enjoy your riding?

Amen to that… 🙂

I’ve read every bit… but doing what they all say.. Hmmmm not for me. I struggle.

Even turbo work can be enjoyable IMO by using Zwift racing… But outdoors esepcually for me needs to be unstructured.

I was prescribed about 9hrs of z2 per week

Jesus, shoot me now!!

Ride more? Well that’s not as simple as it sounds. I’ve lived in Cardiff for over 20 years and whilst the riding here is pretty good there are only so many rides you can trundle around over and over again. So ‘riding more’ can eventually lose its shine if you are doing 3-4x a week rain or shine.

So if I want to be active, what else do I do? I could pick up another sport, but that’s a whole new set of commitments in itself. So I’ve chosen to train, which is a pastime in itself really, and then when I do want to ride I can go further, faster and have more fun. After all, being able to ride further in a sensible time opens up far more possible rides – and riding far is fun in itself.

So I train to keep fit and active – Zwift is more fun and cheaper than heading out to a gym, for me – so that I can enjoy the actual riding more.

Jesus, shoot me now!!

Riding at z2 isn’t that bad in itself, but it requires rolling road routes, you cannot MTB it really. In some parts of the country this is a joy, in others not so much. It limited the routes I could choose from here. But hey, if you don’t want to do it then don’t, there’s no value judgement here. Just don’t look down on those who do want to train, for the same reason.

@anagallis_arvensis

Yes but it’s partly addiction 🤣 Two back to back days off last week left me feeling borderline depressed and anxious.

Weeksy often says similar about how he likes to look at the views and enjoy his rides rather than “train” but I’m often riding the same lanes or trails as him- I just don’t stop 😀 😉

I’m more of a Beligian farmhand level of affluence than the stereotypical mamil but I’d rather ride a £300 bike with a power meter than a £5000 one without. Cycling is almost unique in its ability to actually measure the work you are doing. It revolutionises your understanding of pacing and effort.

Even turbo work can be enjoyable IMO by using Zwift racing… But outdoors esepcually for me needs to be unstructured.

Racing is unstructured though isn’t it.

Some people enjoy the process – nothing wrong with that. Some people just enjoy going for rides. Some people enjoy both. It’s good that all these different viewpoints exist 🙂 it’s difficult to portray but I don’t think the people advocating structured training are not enjoying their riding – they might enjoy the technical nuances of self-improvement more than others.

Whichever approach you take just enjoy it – I really enjoy doing a workout but I also enjoy going for a ride. I don’t see doing a workout as monotonous or boring or a chore. Its all burning calories and generating endorphins!

Just don’t look down on those who do want to train, for the same reason.

I am not looking down on you at all, if you enjoy it that’s great.
I am looking down on the guy who goes out on the group ride with me and spends all the ride off the back with me trying to pace him back on and then find he is doing the ride “fasted” as he thinks he will lose weight. Or the bloke who joins a group ride and then refuses to put any effort in on the hills as he is doing zone 2 today, or the bloke who is 15kg over weight and thinks buying a power meter will help him…

All the people on this thread seem well informed, even when views differ, so I doubt any of you are these people. Like I said I would just question people’s enjoyment, it’s my reason to ride a bike. If you enjoy it, happy days, celebrate our differences. I sometimes this I’d like to “train” more but I really don’t think I’d enjoy it.

Yes but it’s partly addiction 🤣 Two back to back days off last week left me feeling borderline depressed and anxious.

Ses that’s a red flag for me!

My main roadbike cost £400 AND doesn’t have a power metre!!

Having been on that very group ride- it is hilarious to see people ‘put effort in on the climbs’ and then coast down the the other side 🤣🤣
A power meter makes sense of a 2 or 3hr effort. Ie You can pace properly 😉

Having been on that very group ride- it is hilarious to see people ‘put effort in on the climbs’ and then coast down the the other side

Believe me I wasn’t coasting!!
I wasn’t having a pop at you specifically anyway, sorry if it came across that way, I had a number of other people in mind!!!

It’s actually a good metaphor for life. You just need to get out of the door and do the work. Sometimes it will be euphoric, most of the time it will just be what it will be and other times it will feel a chore.

But Z2 especially leaves me feeling better than when I started. Often on the bike too- I’ll be producing more power for the same Hr by the end after 2hrs than when I started.

I think the only concern is balancing life and bike fatigue. It’s only really if you’re racing that you can maybe justify being tired and cranky for other aspects of life.
But at the moment- the hours on the bike make everything else I do feel like a breeze.

My question is though, do you enjoy your riding?

I do. Perhaps more so for having discovered base miles. I followed a Joe Friel type base-build plan for the first time almost 10 years ago for an event, found that I really enjoyed the Z2 miles. I’m more of a tourer than a racer anyway. Realizing I could get faster using mostly Z2 and a committed HI session 1x a week was a revelation – I did 6 months prep (not training, just conditioning and test rides) then 6 months focused training and ended up at a decent level in the target event, from a zero racing background.

What I got from it in the following years was a pattern of riding that fits how I like to ride generally and it’s kept my fitness at a reasonable level since yet I don’t ‘train’ as such. I might use the turbo for a 12 week plan once a year some years but other years I just ride my SS MTB more. I use a HRM to be more focused than ‘just riding’ and got to know my pace/levels pretty well, well enough for the results I wanted anyway.

It’s a simple approach with results I can feel. I CBA with data and tech in my riding so it works well for me. Combined with other riding + lifestyle habits I stay in generally good form for a late 40s non-racer – I enjoy my riding because I can still ride at a pace that feels great on the good days, and I’m not chasing results or stressing over absolute numbers.

I sometimes this I’d like to “train” more but I really don’t think I’d enjoy it.

Same here. There’s certainly a level where it benefits what riding is for me, there’s also a point where it could take a lot of the enjoyment or freedom from riding. If racing success itself is your aim then training has to be important, fair enough.

The idea of training is also useful if you actually do really enjoy your riding but are predisposed to over-doing it and ruining yourself!

I’ve just ridden on feel/enjoying myself in the past and (especially mid-Summer) have just ended up riding too hard, too often and blowing up a bit. Having a loose structure that lets me ride (ideally) three or four times a week without risking injuries or fatigue is great.

Sadly mid-winter that’s going to involve some indoor miles but at least learning how to make Z2 a useful part of my training means I don’t feel like I have smash it on the turbo midweek then take it easy at the weekend, instead I can zone out to some tunes and do Z2 midweek, then maybe start my weekend with some Z2 but also have some fun on the trails or pushing big climbs.

If it’s sustainable and lets me ride consistently then I’ll be having more fun 😎

I am looking down on the guy who goes out on the group ride with me and spends all the ride off the back with me trying to pace him back on and then find he is doing the ride “fasted” as he thinks he will lose weight. Or the bloke who joins a group ride and then refuses to put any effort in on the hills as he is doing zone 2 today

You can look down on them, yes. Rule 1 of training is do it on your own or with people who have the same training session and the same zones as you. Absolutely futile to try and do it on a group ride!

As for the bloke who’s 15kg overweight – a power meter will help him if he has a training plan to go along with it.

Perhaps more so for having discovered base miles.

Having done the base training has absoutely made my riding more enjoyable, I can crank out long miles and feel good about it, coming home nicely tired not feeling shitty. But actually doing it wasn’t that much fun, for the most part. I mean the 5hr jobs out to the forest of Dean, they were quite nice.

This kind of goes against my understanding of sweetspot training adaptation (and all training adaptation really).

Point was the idea of training is to progressively increase either duration or intensity until you reach your recovery week…I struggle to see where the progression is if you’re repeating the same 40 minute sweetspot workout?

I prefer to extend time in zone by ~10% total each workout until I’m spending twice my TTE at SS intensity; once a week in addition to all the lovely Z2!

49 mins into my Z1/2.

With weight loss I have just found moving more and eating less helps. Not sure it matters too much how those calories are burnt.

I still need to lose some weight – would really help with the zwift racing! 🙂

My question is though, do you enjoy your riding?

Absolutely, and the stronger I get the more I enjoy it!

I just faced the ultimate Z2 test…
Overtaken up a long steady climb by a Fred!!

And he kept looking back 🤣

I stayed strong people 💪🏻

He’ll start a thread soon saying he overtook a roadie 🤣🤣

a what ?

I did 1hr 26mins to complete a route on Zwift… it wasn’t as bad as some rides i’ve done as i was doing a particular route… but it wasn’t mind blowing either.

I was going to do the 7km race just after it but was scared Crosshair would shout at me 😀