Viewing 27 posts - 41 through 67 (of 67 total)
  • Zero Hours Contracts – Help me Understand
  • andytherocketeer
    Full Member

    it’s not just business.

    my mother was essentially on a zero hours, doing part time occasional work at the register office, whilst sort of retired (early retirement).

    had the flexibility to be away for 6-8 weeks at a time to tour round europe in a caravan in spring/autumn, and the flexibility to be available to help out in july/august when the permanent staff take summer holidays, and christmas period, which is a rather popular time for registering deaths apparently. edit: and whenever a series of “Who do you think you are?” airs, making 3x as many people go to the local register office to request certificates.

    and the register office had the flexibility to call upon someone that knew the ropes, and might be able to help out in the office next week.

    with an agency, they might be having to train a new temp every 3 months.

    maybe rather than a benefits top up, companies have to pay a retainer?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    You seem to be labouring under the illusion that it is small companies doing this rather than large companies doing it

    My sample may be skewed but all the large factory jobs where the training consists of saying one sentence to the employee ” stand there press that button” use zero hours.
    they tend to prefer foreign workers as they are less vocal about their rights and will put up with worse working practises than the locals. I honestly dont want to help these businesses thrive

    Second point is th emonolithic state benefit system works on either

    1. what you dod that weel
    2. an average

    it cannot deal with folk making a wekly and variable claim for various benefits

    Ie
    week 1 did FT nothing
    week 2 10 hours so HB and working tax credit
    Week 3 nothing so Universal credit and HB [ iirc you cannot claim for the first three days anyway may be different for rapid reclaim]
    week 4 25 hours so Working tax credit
    Week 5 FT nothing

    FWIW We are rich enough that we can afford to do the right thing rather than do the cheapest thing

    etc

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    business simply uses zero hours contracts to artificially riase profits and returns for shareholders at the expense of the employee.

    Whats artificial about it? Its just about minimising their costs. Staff are just a cost like anything else.

    There was a piece of Radio 4 a couple of weeks back about a bloke on a zero hour contract. The contract prevented him from going out and getting a job else where, and he could turn up for work only to be told that he wasnt needed. Some weeks he didnt work more than 7.5hrs.

    They wouldnt give the name of the company, but it was a UK multi national. Shocking.

    Radio 4 had a director (not sure if current or ex) of Morrisons on this morning. He was supporting labour, however the points he made were valid, that some companies squeeze costs by offering zero hour contracts, more socially aware companies do not, but therefore they can not compete on level terms.

    He also sighted it as a reason why productivity levels are so low in the UK, as it is moving away from a stable employed work force. The guy spoke a lot of sense… more than any Labour politician. Not sure it would still make me vote Labour though

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    wanmankylung
    Free Member

    The NHS uses them as a way of avoiding having to pay sick pay and avoid their responsibility for training staff.

    binners
    Full Member

    Another way of looking at it is like this. If zero hours contracts do give a valuable lifeline to small businesses that enables them to be viable.

    This mans small business just about manages to eek out a profit, by using almost exclusively zero hours contracts……

    And this small, struggling little enterprise has somehow scraped through the recession by putting most of their staff on them too….

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Whats artificial about it

    It circumvents employment law to artificially reduced costs as you then went on to explain in the rest of your post

    vinnyeh
    Full Member

    Can’t get a mortgage on a zero hours contract. Easily done on a conventional (temporary/fixed period) contract.

    suburbanreuben
    Free Member

    This is how the UK worked in many areas, a fair time ago though – google Dockers, casual work and the 1947 Act.

    And probably does to some extent today. 10-15 years ago every builder in West London knew there’d be a cheap supply of Polish labour outside a certain newsagent in Shepherds Bush. May well still be the same, and not just there either.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    You seem to be labouring under the illusion that it is small companies doing this rather than large companies doing it

    No I get that it’s both but I am under the impression that when it’s larger organisations (like the NHS) it’s more likely to benefit both parties.

    it cannot deal with folk making a wekly and variable claim for various benefits

    Maybe it’s time it did?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I am reaching the point where I cannot tell if you are trolling or being serious

    My point was not made about the NHS and Binners gave pictures so I am not sure why you missed it tbh

    As for the Welfare state if you want every single person on a zero hour contract to see an adviser each week and make a fresh claim that needs to be processed instantly then I wish you the greatest of luck in integrating that system and managing that process – NB Housing and Tax credits are not even done by the Job Centre and the former not even DWP.

    IDS will be along soon enough to tell you what a piece of piss it is to change the DwP systems and how well it goes and for such little costs.

    Well it had been interesting so far and I have changed my mind and leave better informed that I started the thread
    time to leave as its getting a bit silly /repetitive now

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    My point was not made about the NHS and Binners gave pictures so I am not sure why you missed it tbh

    I didn’t see Binners’ post until after. I’m really not trolling. I started the thread because my impression was that they were all wrong in all occassions and that actually the Labour Party proposal was a good thing and might be a reason to change my vote.

    I’ve learnt a lot like you Junky. I can see the arguments for and against and I think that if well regulated and appropriately used they can be a benefit to both sides of the labour equation.

    I don’t think large privately owned businesses should be using them to raise profits (i’ve no idea who the fat lad in a white shirt is btw).

    If we could only either have them or not have them, I would go with not having them because I don’t think they are fair in far too many instances. However this thread has highlighted that at least some people are benefiting from them and that means we should look at much better regulation.

    King-ocelot
    Free Member

    I have a zero hour contract with the uni for teaching. Its not regular work and I can pick and choose when I want to do it (emails get sent with offers). I get paid a standard rate plus 12.5% inleu of holidays. For this type of work the zero hour contract is a good thing and as a member of staff I still have all the rights that other staff members have at the uni. I have to let them know when I don’t want to be offered any more work. There is no real point in it being a contract as its not ment to be a proper 9-5 job. Would hate to be on a zero hour contract for a proper job though.

    .

    This ^ I do very similar.

    My wife also employs people on zero hours in 2 of her stores. It works well for them both as she doesn’t have as an enployer FTE overheads such as holidays, and the 3 employees on zero hour can pick if they want to pick shifts up around school times/other commitments, 2 are friends of existing staff who have other commitments and one was a full time staff member who wanted to part retire. It works well. However you don’t have to look too far to find retailers abusing zero hours.

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    The NHS uses them as a way of avoiding having to pay sick pay and avoid their responsibility for training staff.

    Sorry that is just trollocks.

    I am aware of zero hour contracts, but they are only there where it benefits both sides. (of course I can not comment for all the NHS)

    To work for the NHS you have to be qualified to do the job and have the relevant training. Zero hours contracts do not allow you to get around that (in the NHS), and why would you want un trained staff risking patient safety. Another sweeping stupid comment about the NHS.

    wilburt
    Free Member

    Its pretty simply a way for employers to minimise their resourcing costs by only paying the absolute minimum for labour and when they absolutely need it.

    Zero hours contracts are often used in conjunction with split shifts so even the obligation to provide paid breaks is avoided.

    There not really “employment” in the normal sense and should be regulated as something between employed and self employed.

    Won’t happen whilst we’ve got muppets in government growing the bank balances of a few at the expense of everyone else.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    AFAIK zero hour contracts mean you are not entitled to paid holidays, sick pay, pension or any redundancy/employment protection. You are not generally allowed / able to work for anyone else either.

    @FunkyDuck – the NHS can hire people on zero hour contracts who where previously fully trained nurses etc with all the relevant training

    There are cases where flexible contracts would make sense for both sides but they need to be structured to be equally balanced. These zero hour contracts are not balanced. The minimum wage under a flexible deal should be at least double the standard rate and with a guaranteed minimum payment per month.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    @wilburt – this is not true, shops just put all their staff on zero hours to avoid holiday/sick pay etc. They know they need people in the shop every day and more at busy times.

    The example of JB sports is a perfect one

    wanmankylung
    Free Member

    Sorry that is just trollocks.

    I am aware of zero hour contracts, but they are only there where it benefits both sides. (of course I can not comment for all the NHS)

    To work for the NHS you have to be qualified to do the job and have the relevant training. Zero hours contracts do not allow you to get around that (in the NHS), and why would you want un trained staff risking patient safety. Another sweeping stupid comment about the NHS.

    NHS Lothian Bank Physiotherapy contracts. Zero hours contract with several weeks work given at any time. Bank staff are not allowed to take part in the inservice training sessions. Yes the staff have the minimum legal level of training to do the job, but they are not progressing because they’re not getting the on the job training that they need.

    Not such a stupid sweeping comment now then is it?

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    IIRC the Ski Instructors on Cairngorm (and probably others) are on ZHC. They turn up each day to find out what the weather/conditions are like and to see if there are any bookings. Often they just have to go home. This is accepted practice and has been for several years. No one complains about it and the recompense while working makes it worthwhile.

    ZHC and (near) minimum wage though? Not much better than slave labour.

    mattsccm
    Free Member

    As a supply teacher, working through an agency and also directly to schools I reckon that these contracts work well. The agency gets me plenty of work saving me chasing schools and the direct contact to some schools gives me a higher rate of pay if I want to bother. If I want a day off I say no to work and I always work on a first come first served basis.
    The thought of a full time contract does not appeal.

    buck53
    Full Member

    As said above I think the main problem with them is where they’re being used by Sports Direct et al to employ people on fixed shifts (albeit only published week to week, but most of the time the staff will know what shift or rotation they are working well in advance) rather than their intended use.

    I think there needs to be a regulation put whereby if the employee is employed on a zero hour contract and work a prescribed amount within, say, 12 weeks they are entitled to a regular contract with all the associated benefits that come with that.

    NZCol
    Full Member

    IIRC the Ski Instructors on Cairngorm (and probably others) are on ZHC. They turn up each day to find out what the weather/conditions are like and to see if there are any bookings. Often they just have to go home. This is accepted practice and has been for several years. No one complains about it and the recompense while working makes it worthwhile.

    Really ? When i was a ski instructor the pay wasn’t exactly what I would describe as ‘adequate’. But yes even back in those days it was a zhc

    mefty
    Free Member

    AFAIK zero hour contracts mean you are not entitled to paid holidays, sick pay, pension or any redundancy/employment protection. You are not generally allowed / able to work for anyone else either.

    You get an accrual of holiday pay for each hour worked. Exclusive contracts have been out lawed but if they give you very short notice they are effectively exclusive in practice.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Similar thread a few months had similar comments. Iirc it boiled down to the following things that make zhc ‘bad’
    -obligation to be available at all times, inability to book days off or holiday and ‘punishment’ for not accepting shifts. (Not usually the case with locum agencies etc in public service)
    -using zhc for people that effectively work full time and would gladly commit to a fixed term or permanent contract as a means to avoid givingtem in-service training, holiday and sick pay.
    -not being able to get a mortgage or in many cases to rent a place -social and economic mobility implications.

    Interestingly in my niche-of-a-niche of health, one of the measurables people are talking/fretting about is the use of zhc/agency/bank/nhsp staff. This is not about the cost implications to the service (there is a 15% premium on even nhs professionals staff let alone the agencies), or the rights of the workers, but actually about the recognition that our particular niche of patients are far better cared for by teams of regular and permanent staff, their inpatients stays are shorter, and being looked after by a succession of well meaning and skilled folk they have never met before is a rising source of complaints from patients and their families. Of course we are not out to make a profit or beholden to shareholders though.
    [edit] iirc we have to pay the whole shift for staff we cancel within 24 hours. It suits us to have a few regulars on zhc but we don’t use them in place of recruiting to proper posts or get pissy with them if they don’t want to work or want to go on holiday. So not nearly as black and white as milliband would have us think.

    sbob
    Free Member

    About ten months ago I was told my hours would be reduced a bit.
    That was the last time that employer spoke to me, I was effectively sacked for no reason with no notice.

    And this small, struggling little enterprise has somehow scraped through the recession by putting most of their staff on them too….

    I work for one of Wetherspoon’s competitors, and although everyone is contracted for far fewer hours than they are typically expected to work, there is a minimum number of hours specified (5hrs a week, or similar) so at least there is a little security.

    sobriety
    Free Member

    I think there needs to be a regulation put whereby if the employee is employed on a zero hour contract and work a prescribed amount within, say, 12 weeks they are entitled to a regular contract with all the associated benefits that come with that.

    Trouble is, the big employers who currently abuse the system will make sure that everyone on a ZHC works 1hr less than that number, continuing to abuse the system.

    Shift work where shifts are regular should not be ZHC, but I don’t know how you’d legislate for that.

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Legislation should be easy. Your permanent contract will be a minimum of the average hours worked in the last 12 weeks or 25 hours whichever is the greater. 25 because of the benefits implications.

    TheBrick
    Free Member

    I worked for cycle surgery as a bike mechanic on zero hours, part time zero hours. Always had to do three days, but zero hours ment no holidays, sickness e.t.c. Even the full time mechanics were on zero hours contracts.

    There are good reasons for having zero hours contracts but I don’t think I was a rarity in having the system abused.

    Zero hour contract are mixing the bad bits of being employed with the bad bits of being a contractor / self employed.

Viewing 27 posts - 41 through 67 (of 67 total)

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