AND (b) increase in value.

It may increase in value, they have had a good run but whether this will continue in perpetuity is another matter. My old boss was told the same about classic cars, I bought his old one for just over a third of what he had paid.

“May” indeed mefty, that is true!

Lots of alternative assets have had a good run thanks to our central banks stealing money of us elsewhere!!

You can buy cheap versions but is that value?

Good question. But surely economists have names for the concepts of intrinsic and extrinsic value…?

I have seen scarves for £1:99 why would you need to pay more?

If I thought someone was buying them for the reasons people buy these watches then I’d be similarly unimpressed. If someone else made the exact same scarf for less I would not be trying to persuade them to buy my wife’s scarf for more, just because more.

Doesn’t your other half make nice hand woven scarves?
I have seen scarves for £1:99 why would you need to pay more?

Who’s? Molgrips? You’re kidding me! If that’s right then that’s comedy genius

Why? The scarves don’t look the same as the ones in the shops, plus you can’t get tesco to make them to your specification either.

This is my point. Her scarves are not the same as the ones in the shops. If they were we’d be guilty as charged.

But in any case, this is me making the argument and my wife making the scarves. She is her own woman, the arguments are not related.

You chaps do know that this thread is all Benedict Cumberbatch’s fault.
If he didn’t mention PP in ‘Cabin Preassure’ i would never have wonderd if it was a real thing or just a made up name, so everyone boycott Cumberbatch.

It is also the BBC fault for paying for the show ‘Cabin Pressuer’ and in so giving Cumberbatch money to live off, so it is not just Cumberbatchs fault for all the lost lives, broken familys and sheep thrown through windows that this thread has caused, it is also the BBCs fault so stop paying your licence.

Forgot to mention that it is also STWs fault for unknowingly advertising PP which showed me what it acutually is, so the fault lies with BBC and STW but mostly Benedict Cumberbatch (who is evil and the destroyer of worlds).

I think you lot should go over to the Sherlock thread and pour scorn and Honey Badgers onto all the Benedict Cumberbatch fanboys.

I hope this explination helps the healing process begin.

I am all for people who have enough cash to buy what they want however I know of people spending several thousands on jewellery and they are renting a house. My mrs worked with a guy who’s wealthy parents to buy him a watch (it was a years wage to him) that is what I do not get especially when you can get more accurate watches for buttons.Obviously they can do what they want with their cash but I can’t get my head round spending that cash and renting property. (As you might have guessed I do not do jewellery)

Well I don’t know what people are whinging about. In that BBC2 programme there were 2 people at least that came from ‘normal’ backgrounds and were making a very good living of the fact that the very rich are happy to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on watches and other items. It’s their money, they’ve earned it, for them spending £250k on a watch is the same as you or I spending £250 on a watch relative to what we earn, and 2 normal working class people are making very good livings out of these people. Everyones a winner. I know people who wouldn’t spend much more than £100 on a bike and think that anyone prepared to spend thousand of pounds on a bike, or hundreds of pounds on bike components are complete imbeciles of the highest order. The amounts of money might be different, the principle is the same.

especially when you can get more accurate watches for with buttons

Fixed. Though it’s still not quite right, because an iPhone for example does have a real value, which is arguably slightly more than any other smartphone (here isn’t the place to go into that any further). Sure some of it is marketing, but not all, and in that case there is a genuine basis for it being considered a premium product, even if the premium you pay is more than the premium you get.

As always, things are shades of grey. Almost everything you buy you’re paying for a certain amount of marketing – at least almost anything that has any sort of brand, even if that brand is Tesco Value. What people “object” to is where you’re mostly paying for the marketing – which is a reason my current sunnies are Bolle safety glasses rather than Oakleys.

edit: though me objecting to this sort of thing feels a bit like biting the hand which feeds – I have plenty of branded kit, some of which has labels which say “marketing sample”, all “paid” for by the people who buy branded stuff which is marketed…

Mrs CFH wears Hermès scarves. They’re lovely things, and very different from a £1.99 Tesco value special.

She likes them, so I like buying them for her.

Wobbliscott – that’s pretty much the gist of what we were saying while watching it.

Don’t hate the player. Hate the game.

Good luck to the people making a good living selling over-priced garish bling to insecure people who clearly have more money than sense, trying to buy status. At the end of the day, those people were buying obscenely expensive watches that they’d never even actually seen. 😯

But surely a tesco £1.99 scarf does what a hand woven scarf does, keeps your neck warm, possibly even better as there’s no human element to make a mistake with the weave.

It’s not about your wife Molgrips, it’s about the argument. You can’t argue one way for something you do agree with (say bikes or, scarves) and another for ones you don’t, like watches.

Well, you will but i can’t be bothered anymore. Work tomorrow and unlike most, I’m really looking forward to it so I’m getting prepped now. Happy new year!

You still seem to be completely missing the point. Mrs molgrips’ customers don’t buy the scarves because they are more expensive than Tesco’s ones.

Who said I agree with her?

Anyway – you’re demonstrating that you haven’t correctly understood the point I am trying to make.

Just to re-iterate:

Most of the value of the expensive watches is perceived – in other words, people value them simply because they are expensive and have been told they are expensive. So they make up reasons.

Hence the thought experiment: If there were a copy of an expensive watch that were indistinguishable, but you knew it were a fake, would you buy it? Most would not, I suspect.

My wife makes scarves that are different to 1.99 ones in material and appearance. They are displayed, and you are free to buy them if you like, or not if you don’t. If they were exactly the same as the £1.99 ones she would not make them at all.

You have not correctly understood the argument.

EDIT aracer has though and has responded much more succinctly.

Ok, one more as sodding windows is updating,

No, they are buying something of no better functionality, for more money, for another reason.

I’m going to guess at exclusivity and asthetics and wanting a none mass produced product.

Edit: after mols post above. Ah, I see, I’m arguing over the real thing, not your fakes question. I readily admit I completely missed that that argument was ongoing. Interesting question, and in my case yes mostly, but it’s sometimes nice to know you’ve worked and saved hard bough to buy the real thing.

I am not sure that there are any haters on here just some people who don’t see why anyone would spend alot of money on a watch. It should come as hardly as a surprise, appreciation of watches is not going to be universal – no pun intended – neither is a love of expensive cars, artisan beer, or whatever else one chooses to spend money on – there is no right or wrong, it is just personal opinion, potentially shaped by marketeers.

I can’t comment on why people buy them – but they are not priced, specified or marketed to make people think they are worth any particular sum.

They are priced according to time and materials.

Aesthetics are part of why (very few) people buy them, but I have already attempted to separate aesthetics from this argument above.

Mrs molgrips’ customers don’t buy the scarves because they are more expensive than Tesco’s ones

But why is this different to buying expensive watches. Why is one group ‘insecure’, with ‘more money then sense’?

tinybits – how much of the cost of mrs molgrips’ scarves do you think goes on the marketing?

Because a significant amount of the perceived value of those is down to the cost.

But it’s the cost of pointless engineering.

If Mrs Grips bought wool from virgin alpacas hand suckled on the southern slopes of the mystical Maccu Piccu to capture the wisdom of the ancients then I would call bullshit just as much.

However she buys whatever is a good deal and will make a nice scarf.

Most of the value of the expensive watches is perceived – in other words, people value them simply because they are expensive and have been told they are expensive. So they make up reasons.

You know very little about the watch industry.
While there is a lot of intangible ‘value’ in a lot of watchmaking there is a huge amount of engineering/design/craft/skill/ingenuity/hard work in the high end. I have seen watchmakers at work in a few Geneva manufacturers and the thing that struck me was they while many could not afford the top end products they made they were absolutely engrossed in what they and their colleagues did and the pursuit of beautiful in engineering and jewellery was at the heart of what they did.
Most (not all) timepieces are incredibly intricate and a lot of their ‘value’ comes from the very process of their creation and the hours spent on their construction. Sure there is loads of gaudy bling for the oligarch /Footballer market but the industry is just continuing a long tradition of embellishing the everyday that started in the iron ages.

Not everyone’s cup of tea but some people appreciate intricate engineering like this and are prepared to pay for it:

(Yes it’s my pic)

But the screw heads don’t line up. For that sort of money, that’s the sort of detail I’d expect.

I’ve not read the whole thread but in theory….

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Just remembered I took these photos of some watches in Burlington Arcade in That London; couldn’t believe the prices for watches that don’t look much different to some I’ve seen for less than a tenth of the price in shops in Bath. Really horrid things.

They are priced according to time and materials.

Well, that’s a good part of it, if you look at what an average garage or whatever charges per hour, maybe £75 or so, then look at how long it takes to actually make a proper, hand-made watch, we might be getting somewhere, or even better, find out just how much a good goldsmith or horologist charges per hour..
I’ll have to ask my mate, who’s a goldsmith, what his work gets charged at per hour.

If my numbers came up I’d have no hesitation on spunking 50k+ on a Richard Mille or Urwerk and I totally get the investment grade vintage Patek or Rolex etc market, some of which can run over six figures… I could give you many reasons for my love of mechanical watches but Mr S summed it up better than I ever could with that A Lange pic above.

As for the intrinsic value some of these watches have, I’ll just leave you with a story my father told me in the late 80’s about a chap he worked with. Said fella had a good job, no dependents and hence lots of disposable and was by all accounts a bit of a flash t***. Range Rover, Harley Davidson and a Rolex hanging off his wrist etc. My Dad queried him about what was at the time probably a 1k watch and his reasons for spending so much on it. His response was that my dad’s Rotary was probably worth a fraction of what he paid for it, yet his Rolex was appreciating in value. So with that in mind, which one cost more when all is said and done?

Or to put it another way, you go out tomorrow and sign up for a new 6k Santa Cruz over 4 years on 0%. After the 4 years you own maybe a 2k bike and it still hasn’t stopped depreciating. Borrow the same amount to buy a new Rolex Submariner and by the time its paid off you’ll probably be in profit.

Nice pic MrSmith – a Lange Sohne platinum datograph. I have the Lange Sohne 1815 Chronograph which has the same movement. Truly stunning engineering and craftmanship.

I do actually own a Patek – a pretty basic one compared to what is normally associated with the brand.

I have a bunch of others – it’s just a hobby in the end. There are many reasons to buy a particular watch – history, brand, rarity, workmanship. The prices are high but in the end it’s just like collecting any other widget.

Well, that’s a good part of it, if you look at what an average garage or whatever charges per hour, maybe £75 or so, then look at how long it takes to actually make a proper, hand-made watch, we might be getting somewhere, or even better, find out just how much a good goldsmith or horologist charges per hour..
I’ll have to ask my mate, who’s a goldsmith, what his work gets charged at per hour.

I think you may be missing the point. You can’t compare what the guy who designs the Lamborghini gets paid vs the guy who builds the engine vs the guy who changes the oil and filters come service time.

As for what a “proper handmade watch” costs as opposed to those from A Lange and Patek etc who employ a great deal of cnc in their manufacture – link

I once bought myself what seemed at the time like quite an expensive watch. I was about 22, and it was probably, like, $50 or something pathetic. But it wasn’t made of plastic and it didn’t come from Argos.

It took me 3 days to put a massive scratch on the face. 🙁

I’m not tempted to invest the price of a second-hand yacht in something that I have a proven track-record of carelessly ruining…

🙂

If I had a ton of money and I had to spend it on a watch, it would definitely be one from this guy:

http://www.salonqp.com/updates/buying/selling-now-an-ultra-rare-roger-smith-series-2/

Perceived value is one element, social conscience is another.

I’ll quite happily spend more on a scarf made by Mme Molgrips who is a part of her local economy, is not corrupt, does not have a Swiss bank account AFAIK, pays her taxes in the UK and uses natural materials.

I used to have a preference for:

Adidas shoes and clothes that had made in Germany and made in France labels – they are now made somewhere in Asia.
Eider and Millet, but since they’ve delocalised I’m quite happy with Schöffel and North Face.
Look, Renault, Veneto, Dawes and locally hand-made bike frames, but the latest ones are Lapierre and Giant. I could still buy Time and Cyfac but don’t.
Rab.

I still buy some things and feel good about it:

British made loud speakers especially up-market Celestion.
Dynastar, Atomic and Rossignol skis that are made in Europe.
Scarpa footware
Quicksilver and DC despite most of it being made in Africa/Asia.
Locally made furniture, locally grown wood, European made stuff for the house – even a Made in France induction hob recently.
Italian and Spanish cycle clothing
Pyrenex down gear

And some stuff with a resigned sigh:

Decathlon trash, on the basis that if I’m going to buy stuff made in sweat shops I’d rather pay as little as possible for it and hope Decathlon’s ethics are what they claim.

I see people wearing these types of watch and just think….

then look at how long it takes to actually make a proper, hand-made watch, we might be getting somewhere, or even better, find out just how much a good goldsmith or horologist charges per hour..

But you’re paying for time and materials that are expensive for no real reason.

Actually, now much would it cost to hire someone(s) to tell you the time, whenever you asked?

I like watches, some of you don’t. That’s perfectly ok, I get it. I don’t judge anyone by the watch they wear, some of you haters clearly do…..it’s just a watch, take a chill pill.

Happy new year.

You never actually own one…

apparently so

you merely knick it for the next generation