You can tell they are clutching at straws when…

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  • You can tell they are clutching at straws when…
  • chewkw
    Member

    I think I need to start a bamboo farm and make them into strong paper bags … 😆

    athgray
    Member

    I thought most people kept them for use as bin liners. It seems in fact people dump them in the bin once the shopping is packed away. There are far more effective ways of reducing landfill but don’t grab headlines. Some packaging is surplus, childrens toys being an example. Many councils could do far more to aid and promote recyling.

    You’re doing something and something is better than absolutely nothing.

    I think you mean “The smugness of feeling that you are doing something is better than the realisation that you are doing nothing significant”

    I think you mean “The smugness of feeling that you are doing something is better than the realisation that you are doing nothing significant”

    No, no that’s not what I meant. If I’d meant that I would have written that.

    If done properly

    Marks & Spencer has charged for its plastic carrier bags since May 2008, donating the profits to environmental charities and education projects, but still gives out smaller bags.

    A spokesman said: “The 5p charge has helped us reduce carrier bag use by 75% in our food halls. That’s over two billion fewer bags since its introduction in 2008 and over £6m has gone to good causes as a result.”

    Its a load of tosh though, isn’t it?

    Someones going to drive a big car to the out of town shopping centre, buy goods which have been shipped thousands of miles around the world, all wrapped in tons and tons of packaging before driving home again.

    And not using a carrier bag is gonna save the planet?

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Its a load of tosh though, isn’t it?

    Plastic waste, including from single-use carrier bags, poses a major and growing environmental threat to
    wildlife, both terrestrial and marine1. Marine litter has a large impact on the marine environment as more
    than one million birds and 100,000 marine mammals die each year from becoming entangled in or ingesting
    marine litter2. Research has shown that plastic pieces, ranging in size from 0.5 mm to several centimetres in
    diameter, are frequently ingested by many marine animals, including seabirds, turtles, marine mammals
    and fish. Plastic bags are particularly attractive to turtles, as these resemble their prey, while smaller pieces
    of plastic are frequently mistaken for food by several seabird and fish species.

    Ingestion of plastic poses threats to the animals concerned on different levels, the severity of which varies
    from species to species. One well-documented problem is blockage and ulceration of the gastro-intestinal
    tract, which limits the passage and digestion of food, and can also lead to a reduction in perceived hunger
    because of stomach distension. This can deplete fat reserves, necessary for breeding and the lengthymigrations undertaken by a number of marine species, and can ultimately result in starvation3. Plastic
    consumption also leads to the accumulation of toxins, such as polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), which can
    disrupt circulating hormone levels, leading to problems with fertility. Autopsies of dead animals found on
    beaches or captured by fisherman have revealed significant quantities of plastic in their digestive system.
    98% of Fulmars in the North Sea have plastic in their stomachs which can lead to a loss of physical
    condition resulting in breeding failures and in severe cases death4. Another problem caused by plastic
    marine debris is entanglement, leading to drowning. A 2006 global survey by International Coastal Clean-
    up (ICC) reported that 2% of all animals found dead had been entangled in plastic bags. However, the
    actual scale of the problem associated with plastic waste in the marine environment is difficult to assess
    and likely underestimated, as many individuals affected die at sea and quickly sink or are scavenged by
    other animals.

    http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/RSPB_Scotland_response_tcm9-325769.pdf

    But only from free plastic shopping bags? All purchased bags will be OK? What about the free ones that the veg goes in? The clingfilm over the meat? Etc.

    When I go shopping the majority of plastic waste isn’t the bags.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    I think it’s a good thing, anything to reduce waste and encourage recycling. I have a Decathlon re-usable bag which stuffs into a plastic ball – great bit of kit for shopping.

    ohnohesback
    Member

    So legislate for the use of biodegradable plastic. But that doesn’t grab healines or extract money from shoppers…

    I’m not opposed to using sustainable bags (and I do). It’s just importance that FREE plastic bags seem to have had assigned to them.

    If it costs me 5pence it will still kill seagulls just the same as the free one.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    What about the free ones that the veg goes in? The clingfilm over the meat? Etc.

    Good point. So what do you suggest we do about those ?

    .

    EDIT : If it costs me 5pence it will still kill seagulls just the same as the free one.

    I take it you don’t recognise market forces ?

    See w3hat ohnohesback said for a start.

    I think we all need to think about our usage of resources and the impact we have on the environment.

    Polystyrene for a start should be banned, I reckon.

    Paper bags for fruit and veg.

    Less packaging generally.

    EDIT: I doubt that 5pence will be enough to dissuade most folk.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    I think we all need to think about our usage of resources….

    You don’t think that charging shoppers 5p for each disposable plastic carrier bag will help them to “think”?

    Not really, no.

    a quid a bag might. Or no bags at all.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    I think we’re getting back to whether you recognise the power market forces or not.

    It’s unlikely that people will use disposable plastic carrier bags willy nilly if they cost 5p each in the same way they will if they are completely free. The cost also helps to focus people’s attention to the environmental impact.

    Where a charge has been introduced the use of disposable plastic carrier bags has dropped dramatically.

    I’ve seen the reports from the supermarkets of a 90% reduction in use which looks really impressive. I still, personally can’t see why an extra 20 or 30 pence on a £100 shop has had such a large effect.

    I would have thought that with changes in public behaviour like that we could half car use by putting fuel up by 10 pence a litre.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Its worked very well in wales, 80% reduction in use apparently

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    personally can’t see why an extra 20 or 30 pence on a £100 shop has had such a large effect.

    You’re right. When Ireland introduced a charge over 10 years ago it was 12 per disposable plastic carrier bag. Within a year 90% of shoppers were using long-life bags. I agree with you that it probably needs to be more than 5p 🙂

    mogrim
    Member

    You’re right. When Ireland introduced a charge over 10 years ago it was 12 per disposable plastic carrier bag. Within a year 90% of shoppers were using long-life bags. I agree with you that it probably needs to be more than 5p

    Same thing happened here in Spain, as soon as the charge came in (it’s 5c a bag) most people started using long-life bags.

    AdamW
    Member

    In Aldi you already have to pay for your bags if you want them. I have only seen a couple of people pay for them. Most people bring their own bags.

    b r
    Member

    I don’t see what is bad about it or why you are so determined to find fault with it.

    Because it’s another career living off-the-state politician intent on making my life harder/dearer – in fact I bet we’ll end up paying for his when he puts in his expenses.

    As others have said, look around and ask your yourself – “will it actually make a difference?”, when my entire life-time usage of plastic supermarket bags is probably the same use of resources as someone driving to the coast and back. So, no and it also annoys me that it’s another tax and it doesn’t even go to the country, but the supermarkets bottom line.

    In Aldi you already have to pay for your bags if you want them. I have only seen a couple of people pay for them. Most people bring their own bags. [/i]

    Or just wheel the trolley straight to the car.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    it also annoys me that it’s another tax and it doesn’t even go to the country, but the supermarkets bottom line.

    You can’t have it both ways ! If the money isn’t going to the government but to the supermarket, as you claim, it’s not a tax.

    Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    Can someone explain how this will work?
    As a shop keeper we have to spend a fortune on something that we have to give away.
    A proper plastic carrier bag costs us at least 10p. A large paper carrier is nearer 30p.
    Will the retailer be charged an extra 5p per bag when we buy them that we will be expected to get back from the customer?
    Anything that reduces bag usage is bloody excellent by me as a retailer and me as a human being.
    We always ask people if they need a bag , lots of people say yes then put their bagged purchases in their big bag.
    The amount of people who ask for a paper bag to protect their cellophane wrapped greetings card when its raining is beyond belief.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    I think you can have it both ways – give additional bonus points if you bring your own bag. Win-win for all without the (regressive) “tax” element. Bag usage down, consumer benefits rather than loses, supermarket gets extra custom and no badwill. Oh and guess what, some do that already (Tesco and Boots). As I said earlier, no need for this. Encourage what the supermarkets do already.

    mogrim
    Member

    Can someone explain how this will work?

    From a customer’s point of view it’s simple: you want a bag, you pay for it. Here AFAIK the money goes straight to the retailer.

    Kevevs
    Member

    In the one store where I work, rather than selling plastic for profit, since 2011 the store has raised over ten grand for the Welsh Air Ambulance service. They’ve probably had to take the hit someway, but sod them! I think it works well. It’ds a great idea and supermarkets and customers just need to get over it!

    Ambrose
    Member

    Here in Wales the money (5p) goes to the retailer and the retailer then has to give it, in turn, to a charitable organisation. I do not know the mechanism for this. Thus the retailer does NOT get the money.

    But so what if they did? The retailer had to buy the bags in the first place. If retailers now have a lesser demand for disposable carrier bags then they might be able to make a slightly higher profit margin. Hopefully this will aid smaller retailers.

    Anyone who has shopped in France is surely familiar with the idea of taking a shopping bag/ basket etc with them. It was the norm in the UK years ago too. I keep a bunch of shopping bags in my car. It is hardly rocket science.

    On a final note, I honestly believe that there is far less plastic bag litter around nowadays in Carmarthenshire compared to previously.

    b r
    Member

    You can’t have it both ways ! If the money isn’t going to the government but to the supermarket, as you claim, it’s not a tax.

    What would you call it then?

    Govt tells private company to charge for something they use to ‘give away’ – it’s a tax, irrelevant of where it’s going.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    it’s a tax, irrelevant of where it’s going.

    Of course it isn’t. It’s not going towards financing government activities.

    And btw contrary to your claim, the proposal would not see the money levied going to the retailer :
    The proceeds will go to charities involved in clearing up the environmental damage caused by the bags rather than the Government or the retailers.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    It’s as much of a tax as the Bedroom Tax ie, it isn’t.

    But makes/would make much better headlines/poltical posturing to call it such.

    ohnohesback
    Member

    But if the charity is indirectly covering for cuts in govt services? (As the New Opportunities fund of the National Lottery)

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    It’s as much of a tax as the Bedroom Tax ie, it isn’t.

    Not at all. The money saved by the Bedroom Tax goes to the government/LA. There isn’t any suggestion at all that the government will make a penny out of the plastic bag levy.

    Call it a plastic bag tax if you want, but br is seriously undermining the claim by in the same breath pointing out that the government won’t get any of it and that it will all go to the retailer 🙂

    ohnohesback
    Member

    If it looks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck…

    As for the bedroom tax, Frankie Boyle said quite rightly, “It isn’t a tax, it’s a punishment.”

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Tax is about raising revenue. The bedroom tax (sic) is nothing of the sort. It is a reduction in expenditure/spending.

    So neither are a tax. They may have similar impacts (b r’s point possibly) but still not a tax.

    Anyway you have to cut poor Cleggie some slack. He’s got Uncle Vince planning mischief and it’s obviously getting to poor guy with the Conference pressure. There he was this morning going on about how Labout would “wreck the economy” it elected to power and yet insisting that he would still do a deal with them in 2015. He really is a bit muddled, so we can forgive the plastic bag stuff.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I love how you lot are all theorising whether or not it would work. Come to Wales and have a look!

    The biggest factor is that they no longer hand them out automatically, you have to ask. This means that having disposable bags is slightly more effort, especially on the self checkout, and we all know people don’t like effort. People now walk our with three or four items in their arms instead of the automatic disposable bag you get in England.

    If you watch shoppers it’s quite remarkable how many more people are using reusable bags now.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    If it looks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck…

    It’s probably not a good idea to claim that it has 4 legs.

    I have no problem with the plastic bag levy being called the plastic bag tax, I just think that pointing out why it isn’t a tax in the same sentence is probably not a good idea and rather counterproductive.

    In case you forgotten what was said : “it also annoys me that it’s another tax and it doesn’t even go to the country, but the supermarkets bottom line.”

    Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    If the 5p charge goes through the till we will have to pay tax on that. If its included on a credit card transaction we will get charged for that as well.
    Also it will affect our profit ratio which if varies by a miniscule amount on what HMRC reckons we should earn incurs a visit from the tax man. Time consuming at best.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    I’m glad the thread title includes the term “clutching at straws” 🙂

    fingerbike
    Member

    Not heard anything negative from anyone who already lives somewhere this is in place, hopefully carrier bag lined roads will be a thing of the past.

    Be nice if they could bring in a deposit on bottles and cans too, seems to be the only way to deter litter dropping *~@£%$.

    *choose your favorite description.

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 89 total)

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