Choices, that’s what it’s all about.

That’s great. Now will I have the choice to use a Shimano 12 speed cassette on my wheels? Yes or no?

You have the choice not to use 12 speed. Or go with SRAM. Or use a different cassette. Or change hubs. Why should you have every possible option every time? FWIW there are lots of hubs that have no XD driver option either.

Talking about choices, I’d really like to be able to choose an 11-speed 10-46t Sram XG1170 level cassette for about £70 or £80. They could even go nuts and make 10 to 48t, it’d probably still be fine with 11sp XT.

Currently on 10-42t and making do with a 28t chainring, but they’ve probably lured everyone onto Eagle that they’re going to by now – so why not offer a bit more support to 11sp users?

Why should you have every possible option every time?

Well, there are two clear and obvious ways that Shimano could sell me, and a lot of others, most of a spangly new groupset… let hub manufacturers make Micro Spline freehubs… or make a cassette that fits current Shimano pattern freehubs. And it’s not just after market sales… I predict that SRAM OEM will be on far more new complete bikes now… why should bike brands feel locked into buying wheels/hubs from Shimano or a limited list of partners? Especially when wanting to equip lower end bikes with the “one more gear” that customers will be looking for?

I predict that SRAM OEM will be on far more new complete bikes now… why should bike brands feel locked into buying wheels/hubs from Shimano or a limited list of partners?

A huge proportion of OEM wheels are DT, either overtly or badged. it really isn’t an issue.

Sram already dominate the high end MTB OEM market, ‘cos they were so far ahead on 1x drivetrains.

If anything Shimano might gain back some ground now.

Re weight, going 1×11 M8000 from 3×9 M970 saved me 300g ish, and cost about £180 ish since I kept my cranks.

Sram already dominate the high end MTB OEM market, ‘cos they were so far ahead on 1x drivetrains.

Yup, and 12 spd XTR was the chance for Shimano to get the high end back. The hubs fiasco has probably ruined that chance now. And few lessons have been learned when going for the mid range now… tying the SLX group into Micro Spline exclusively, and limiting that new freehub availability to a handful of hub/wheel manufacturers, won’t win them fans with bike brands looking at their build specs.

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Talking about choices, I’d really like to be able to choose an 11-speed 10-46t Sram XG1170 level cassette for about £70 or £80. They could even go nuts and make 10 to 48t, it’d probably still be fine with 11sp XT.

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I was riding last week with someone on a new YT set up with 11 speed XTR and a 4-46 e-Thirteen cassette on an XD driver. The steps are big, but it works well and would give you the range, and his shifting didn’t seem any worse than mine on 10-42 cassette with 11 speed XX1.

Sram already dominate the high end MTB OEM market, ‘cos they were so far ahead on 1x drivetrains.

I thought it was less that, and more the size of the discount they give if you buy a complete SRAM finishing kit. SRAM is cheap for OEMs and expensive for punters.

The microspline farce means I have had enough of Shimano and I’ve insisted on using their stuff for the last 15 years cos of the shifting quality.
Oh and the constantly changing I-spec compatibility.
Off to SRAM I go.

I thought it was less that, and more the size of the discount they give if you buy a complete SRAM finishing kit. SRAM is cheap for OEMs and expensive for punters.

From my limited insight as a punter, I think they were heading into the lead anyway for that reason, but have made even bigger gains with their one-by transmissions the last few years.

e-Thirteen cassette on an XD driver

I was interested when they launched it, until I saw the price was £200-plus. And I don’t really trust them on durability and shift quality TBH.

HOWEVER

I’ve just found out Sunrace are making an XD cassette with 10-46t, at a price I could just about stomach (vs going 12 speed). Just gotta wait for CRC to get stock…
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sunrace-11-speed-xd-cassette/rp-prod186874

From Pinkbike-
“TheRaven PLUS (3 days ago)
@covekid: XD wasn’t completely open at first either. It still isn’t technically COMPLETELY open as you still need to get SRAM’s permission, and just like they would with Shimano, they can choose to deny any application.

As for Shimano, the reluctance to license MicroSpline is due to manufacturing capability. Shimano needs to see that the applicant can reliably meet specification before they will sign off.

The bottom line is this – now that we know that both XT and SLX use MicroSpline, it’s only a matter of time before all the significant players have MicroSpline options in their hubs.”

That seems reasonable, but why simply say no to other potential licensees instead of having a programme where they can demonstrate capability? Surely the fact that they’ve been making HG for decades would suggest they can?

Unless they consider the alu freehub gouging thing to be an issue…

Negotiations?

Maybe DT Swiss are paying for (or had it written into their deal) that they’d have a lead time with little competition.

It’s a it naive to think that there isn’t more stuff happening behind the scenes than is being discussed on a bike forum.

How good/bad are the new xt hubs likely to be?.will they be usable for an average rider or are they a total no no. Mainly bothered about reliability will they need constant care or are they fit and forget.seem fairly good price so might build a wheel using xt hub until more options become available.

will they need constant care or are they fit and  forget

In reality they are neither of these two things. I haven’t used cup and cone for a while, but the trick used to be, pull them apart at new, stuff them with plenty of grease, and check once a year or so to nip up any play. For a competent home mechanic it’s a 15 mins job if you stop for a cup of tea between front and rear wheels

I commented on XT and XTR hubs further up the thread. My new wheels will have XT hubs.

Cheers scotroutes just re-read your post.a new xt microspline hub is under £80 so think I’ll get a wheel made up using that until hope bring one out.

I’ve just found out Sunrace are making an XD cassette with 10-46t, at a price I could just about stomach (vs going 12 speed). Just gotta wait for CRC to get stock…
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sunrace-11-speed-xd-cassette/rp-prod186874

@chapaking I think that is a typo on CRC, just looked on Sunraces site and cant see any 10 tooth cassettes all 11 tooth high ear/ small cog.

@chapaking I think that is a typo on CRC, just looked on Sunraces site and cant see any 10 tooth cassettes all 11 tooth high ear/ small cog.

No, it’s correct. XD freehub allows a 10t small cog and I’ve verified the product’s existence elsewhere on web.

Surprising there’s been less fuss about it though, as it’s a great solution for those of us wary of 12 speed but who need a bit more range at a reasonable weight.

Good news for everyone that Sunrace is going to be offering XD too. At 10-46 it’s limited utility unless wildly cheaper/not too much heavier (even lighter???) than the 1150 ‘GX’, but it’s a start, more will come.

Totally get that SRAM OE is about insane discounts on full group and that the consumer picks up the tab. That’s common knowledge I thought, and Shimano would do exactly the same if they had shock and fork manufacturing covered.

Who knows what is going on in Shimano’s head licensing wise. Maybe they’re demanding no clicky pawl Microspline because brand pollution? That would be a huge issue for Hope as they’d need a new hub and they’d need to buy the DT license too or engineer something completely new. Or possibly Shimano are writing in a ‘no competition’ clause that steps on Hope’s own cassette and bans them releasing Microspline cassettes of their own? Both would be very possible and totally business being business. Or, as earlier maybe they’re simply limiting the license to true volume OE’s in the short term while they get the first MY’s bikes in shops to drive bike sales.

As to choice, yep the choices are wide open now. One of them is going to be whether to change your rear hub or wheel if you want new Shimano by the look of things, but as above it’s always been this way for Road so not a surprise that MTB gets the same treatment once in a while. There’s going to be a ton of moaning about it in the forums, just like any other time a cool new toy comes along that doesn’t work with what people already have. It’ll end the same way, just like always.

Who knows what is going on in Shimano’s head licensing wise. Maybe they’re demanding no clicky pawl Microspline because brand pollution? That would be a huge issue for Hope as they’d need a new hub and they’d need to buy the DT license too or engineer something completely new. Or possibly Shimano are writing in a ‘no competition’ clause that steps on Hope’s own cassette and bans them releasing Microspline cassettes of their own? Both would be very possible and totally business being business. Or, as earlier maybe they’re simply limiting the license to true volume OE’s in the short term while they get the first MY’s bikes in shops to drive bike sales.

That sort of thing is why we have competition law. You have to be way more subtle about it to be legal, no doubt Shimano have their lawyers on the case.

A huge proportion of OEM wheels are DT, either overtly or badged. it really isn’t an issue.

Pretty small % actually, though higher at the high end / wheelset level. They need to license the design to KT or Novatech to get wide OEM spec. They’ve licensed centrelock to them in the past so it’ll just be a matter of time.

it’ll just be a matter of time.

I think that sums it up best.

Some good points raised above about Shimano’s QC expectations, so perhaps we’ve jumped to the wrong conclusions.

Anyway, I don’t care now – I just want that Sunrace cassette and I’ll stay 11sp.

That sort of thing is why we have competition law. You have to be way more subtle about it to be legal, no doubt Shimano have their lawyers on the case.

Accepted, but regardless of how it’s actually presented, if Shimano want a lot of kit on bikes from a standing start it’s a big selling point for bike mfrs if whole bike is the only way most people are getting the whole new Shimano shiney this year. I’d be surprised if at least consideration wasn’t given to that. Not sure how you’d fly it under competition laws, but I’m sure a sufficiently motivated company could do it.

As above, I’d be surprised if controls aren’t relaxed after a big splurge on the OE scene.

The license only covers the spline interface, not the freehub mechanism.

Anyone started listing the SLX/XT stuff yet? Wouldn’t mind pricing it up 🙂

not the freehub mechanism

Considering the disaster surrounding the XTR hubs, I don’t think anyone will be looking to learn anything about freehub mechanisms from Shimano right now anyway.

Just fitted a MicroSpline driver and XTR cassette to my Roval (DT Swiss) wheel.

The cassette figment is so much nicer than XD, no stupid torque settings, cassette locks on really positively.

When the frame arrives later I’ll be putting the rest of the drivetrain on it (XTR shifter and mech, got Praxis Lyft cranks so XTR would have been a step down!) so should get some miles in on it this week.

I will probably try my Mrs’ Eagle GX wheel as well to see what the shifting is like on a Sram cassette.

@Johnw1984

It’s listed on Bike Discount M8100

Availability stated as within 6 weeks – (group set ‘priority pack’ said 14th June).

Considering the disaster surrounding the XTR hubs, I don’t think anyone will be looking to learn anything about freehub mechanisms from Shimano right now anyway.

Slight over-reaction? They have dropped the ball somewhat on the new mechanism, but have a pretty solid 30 odd year track record on inexpensive and reliable freehubs.

We are talking about the new ones. The Scylence hubs turned out to be vapourware, yet they want us (and shops, and OEMs) locked into their hubs (plus those from a few partners)? And what else disappeared between XTR launch and new bike models…? The chainset, the racer’s 11spd options… still more hubs…? You’re right about past reliabity, longevity and availability… however…

DT’s ratchet hubs don’t have a poor record for reliability, the only real issues with them are that they still ship 18T as default and make you spend if you want 36 or 54T (=20/10/6.6deg engagement) and that Hope spare parts are easier to come by in a hurry for most, but if you stay on top of servicing you’re not likely to need emergency parts unless you’re extremely unlucky. Anyone who wants to get something with a 350 or 240 in the back end or build one into an existing wheel can run the full group now without a Shimano hub with no realistic reliability concerns if they want. I’d expect ebay prices for DT 350 based wheels will see a bit of a bump.

If reliability brick bats are being flung about, Hope have a bit of history too. Sure, they addressed these problems – by releasing new models for people to buy with the problems designed out. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make about the Scylence hub other than Shimano hit a very rare for them fail with it. From the noises (!) being made it’ll be back at some point. It’s also fair to say that the context of the botched 9100 launch was the aftermath of their factory fire combined with a very ambitious launch. Dropping a few bits of the group to save the rest was by the sound of things an unfortunate but necessary decision. As to lockin, they’ve made third party hubs possible with their preferred suppliers immediately at launch. That just doesn’t include Hope right now, it’s almost certain to at some point but from the noises being made I really wouldn’t hold my breath for this MY.

If Hope do manage to land it this year, then good for them, but Shimano seem to be playing Business, so if they’re limiting immediate access to the license for the necessary FH body, they probably just don’t want too much aftermarket up front which basically smells of a semi-OE exclusive. If they want to do that then it’s their product…

Jeezo Kelvin – calm yer breeks?!

Chainset delay was caused by a fire at a factory. Hardly anyone’s fault, and a cheaper alternative was offered ASAP.

The 11 speed option was cancelled as there was too little demand for it and complicated things with an additional hub to reap the benefits. There are still ratio options (10/45 and 10/51) that others don’t offer which offer real benefits to more people without added compatibility complications.

Freehub issue as said is regrettable, but the budget non-series ones were unaffected, the replacement XTR was available pretty quickly and the big global high end vendor had an option from the get go, with others following. Hope is only a big deal in the UK. As James said, KT and Formula/Novatech are the important budget OEM brands. There is no locking in – just limited options due to being a top tier option only until now. That’s bound to change with the new groups, but it’s a 2020 group, and 2020 bikes are few and far between right now – we’ll soon see.

Other after market options will doubtless follow.

In answer to OP – just checked on Madison B2B, and all parts for a 1x group with 4 pot brakes look to be available this month with the exception of the EV option shifter – standard band on shifter due this month, EV option next month.

Wonder if Shimano will do 11sp cassettes in Microspline? Has anything been stated on that front?

Hm. Thanks, concrete!

The ‘priority group’ looks like a fairly healthy premium over waiting for full release to get stuff 6 weeks early. If the hubless priority is £920, I’ve done addy ups and got a full 4 pot group without hubs and without rotors (but including a DT freehub body) to £720 so either those brake rotors are damned expensive or there’s about £180 premium (accounting for the FH that the Shimano box set doesn’t have) ‘to be first’. I don’t need a tin mug that badly…

So, leaving brakes out but including DT FH body that’s a street (Germany) price of £480 for a full drivetrain at 32T, 170mm and 10-51. That’s not crazy money and it’s well cheaper than X01 but it’s noticeably more than GX. XT being ‘somewhere between’ that’s reasonable, but I’d argue XT is closer to GX than X01 so hopefully we’ll see lower prices still 😀 Broadly does look like the suggested ‘half XTR money was correct.

Also good news for anyone desperate to run but without suitable rear wheel; the non-boost 142×12 and centre lock 32H is £78 on that site with boost about a tenner more, so anyone prepared to rebuild a rear wheel has a possible get-in that isn’t *that* much more than replacing a FH body on a posher hub and cup and cone isn’t really inferior to cartridge bearings for rear hubs, it just needs regular maintenance, which surely isn’t a massive deal until Hope or whoever else get the license?

I have plenty of hubs that aren’t Hope, and can be swapped between XD and HG… but not Micro Spline. This isn’t just about Hope… the implications are bigger for those needing cheaper hubs for OEM builds. Anyway… launching an SLX level groupset that can only be used with hubs from Shimano and a few other vendors looks like lock in to me… call it what you want. The option to widen the Micro Spline licence to all, or produce a low end HG 12 spd cassette, would have opened up the option for end users and bike brands considerably. Understandable not to do this with XTR bling bling, but disappointed not to see it at this level (yet).

 (accounting for the FH that the Shimano box set doesn’t have)

As far as I’m aware, the priority group comes with hubs.