Seems Eldest is in bother with School (again).

The other day around 30 kids, all still in uniform met at some local hospital grounds to get up to mischief. He’s gone there despite his Mum and I expressly telling him not to. He also turned off the location services on his phone to hide his tracks.

His version of events is this, they went, some of the older kids broke into a building site. they started climbing stuff, the police were called. They arrived to find him and his mate ‘minding the bags’ of the older kids, details are taken. We’re expecting a letter from the police, again. School have been notified, but they’re “not bothered”.

Obviously the school are “bothered” because they’ve called us. They want to know about the ‘incident’ but also about a Whatsapp Group chat that apparently was used to organise it and apparently also contains “rude and disrespectful language” about the teacher who’s clearly the one “bothered” and thrown the lot of them into detention tonight. She’s also taken their phones and will be expecting them to hand over pass codes this afternoon so she can inspect them.

This bothers me, partly it’s because I have an issue with privacy generally and also there’s nothing to stop them reading messages between him and my Wife and I, some of which are incredibly personal and private and I don’t want those read by anyone bar us.

Also, I don’t know how I feel about private messages about teachers by pupils. I’d be lying if I hadn’t called most, if not all my of teachers something unsavoury during my school years, it seems a bit of a witch hunt by an irate teacher who’s using the ‘incident’ to punish kids for saying nasty things about her, she can’t be that new to teaching to be shocked by this.

I can, if I want, lock it remotely, even wipe it clean. I’m sure this will be seen as an admission of guilt by the school, but I’m not sure I care. I want him to be punished for the trespass (whilst at the same time wondering what it’s really got to do with school what happens after hours) but I don’t have an issue with him saying mean things about teachers per-se.

Good luck getting a teenagers pass code.

Never gonna happen.

I’m a teacher. I’m getting some biscuits…

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

I very much doubt the teacher has the right to see the messages – but the police would do.

If they’re up to no good in school uniform then it’s something to do with the school, after hours or not. What they’re entitled to do about it is very limited IMO.

She’s also taken their phones and will be expecting them to hand over pass codes this afternoon so she can inspect them.

Nope. And nope again. She’s no business even asking for such a thing. What’s next, she comes round your house and searches his room for evidence of random shenanigans?

I’m a teacher.

I think the teacher has put themselves in a daft position.

They are not going to get the passwords to the phones. Then what? Mass expulsions? Unlikely.

Being called something by a student outside of school on a phone is not really going to be resolvable.

I’d wipe the phone. Who’s to say it didn’t malfunction?

Good luck getting a teenagers pass code.

Never gonna happen.

If he’s got a core fault it’s that he’s NEVER WRONG, he’ll give it to them with a smirk and tell the to do their worst in complete defiance of logic.

She’s also taken their phones and will be expecting them to hand over pass codes this afternoon so she can inspect them.

I’d be managing the teacher’s expectations forthwith. Tell her to come back with a court order or foxtrot oscar.

There is no reason for anyone to be handing out passwords to anyone ever, I don’t care if they’re a teacher or the pope. Aside from anything else it’s a really bad lesson to be teaching kids, they should be taught to take security seriously.

She’s also taken their phones and will be expecting them to hand over pass codes this afternoon so she can inspect them.

I would simply ask her to show you the school policy that compels students to hand over personal equipment and passcodes for inspection. Which she can’t. Because it isn’t legal.

I very much doubt the teacher has the right to see the messages – but the police would do.

She’s no right at all. The police would need a warrant. And access to the phone gives a lot more than just Whatsapp, on a smartphone it’s email, location history, access to every app they use, none of which is likely to be protected once the passcode is entered.

She’s also taken their phones and will be expecting them to hand over pass codes this afternoon so she can inspect them.

As many have already said, tell the teacher they have no rights in this regard.

Not a hope in hell. I’d be suggesting that the phones be handed back and the teacher has a word with themselves (i have done this to the member of staff that has the room next to me). They are about to paint themselves into a corner that there is no getting out of.

As for the shenanigins school uniform colours that one and it depends on how strong the will of the school is, although i think teach has undermined that one.

How willing/able are the school to exclude/permanently exclude?

I very much doubt the teacher has the right to see the messages – but the police would do.

https://www.saunders.co.uk/news/prosecuted-for-your-password.html

The police would need a warrant.

I thought this too, but I checked and it’s no longer the case. They can’t just demand it for shits and giggles though.

The police are able to request disclosure if the reason is to prevent or detect crime, if it’s in the interests of national security or if it is in the interests of the economic wellbeing of the UK.
…
The law which allows the police (or other authorities) to do this is the controversial Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). S.49 is the relevant section which came into force in 2007.

So, do they believe a crime has been committed or was likely to be? If not, they can GTF as well.

What johndoh says – we had an incident where a teacher deleted stuff from our daughters phone related to cyber bullying – I am afraid teachers/schools are very behind where they should be with this stuff – its all been around for years now , individual cases may be different but policies could be made .

So, do they believe a crime has been committed or was likely to be? If not, they can GTF as well.

I supposed it’s trespass but Judge Google reckons that’s a ‘Civil Tort’ rather than a crime whatever that it.

I’ve locked it for now.

I’d do the same as you, lock it for now. Safest option.

No point anyone saying tell the teacher where to go as they have it in their possession and access to the kids involved before you can talk to them.

The child would be in trouble today.
But I’d still be asking the school for the return of my property tomorrow.

Would agree with all the others about the phone, but re the building site – if as you said they ‘broke in’ (ie forced entry by breaking a fence or whatever) or went equipped to break in then iirc it is (or can be) a criminal offence of breaking and entering. If they found a way in (climbed a fence) then it’s trespass.

I used to do urban exploring a few years ago so this might be a bit out of date.

Obviously the school are “bothered” because they’ve called us. They want to know about the ‘incident’ but also about a Whatsapp Group chat that apparently was used to organise it and apparently also contains “rude and disrespectful language” about the teacher who’s clearly the one “bothered” and thrown the lot of them into detention tonight. She’s also taken their phones and will be expecting them to hand over pass codes this afternoon so she can inspect them.

The school is bothered, or a single teacher acting alone without the Head knowing is bothered?

Update for anyone who still cares.

Eldest wasn’t part of the group chat, they established that from another kids phone so he’s off the hook as far as they’re concerned (they do seem to be more interested in the group chat rather than the trespass).

They’ve printed / typed out the entire group for all parents who’s kids are included and highlighted what they find inappropriate. The ‘worst offenders’ will be in isolation for the foreseeable and face exclusion. I don’t know what they find “inappropriate” but if ours was involved I’d be obviously annoyed if he’d said anything grossly obscene, but I don’t want to be the thought police, I’d still be more annoyed at the school for the invasion of privacy.

I think I’ll tell him in future to not allow them access, they can take it off him if they feel they need to.

I think I’ll tell him in future to not allow them access, they can take it off him if they feel they need to.

How about you sit down with him, read through the messages and discuss what is and is not appropriate. As you don’t know the content perhaps you should do.

They’ve printed / typed out the entire group for all parents who’s kids are included and highlighted what they find inappropriate.

Collecting, processing and sharing personal data without consent.

Naughty.

As above, report them to https://ico.org.uk/ if it bothers you

Collecting, processing and sharing personal data without consent.

Naughty.

Or that the security of your Wahtsapp group is as always as strong as your weakest link, if you share the message with a group you should have a resonable expectation that somebody could leak it.

Well ultimately the trespass is not the school’s concern.
The messages are a sticky wicket all they can be highlighting would be the attitude and comments about the staff member. Teaching staff hear comments all the time but I’d think committing it to text and sharing it is leaning towards some sort of law breaking. Whether you. Feel it big brother or not.

I think if it were me I’d be writing to the head, explaining the situation, and warning them that if they pull a stunt like that with your son you’ll be coming after them for a GDPR breach.

(I’m not 100% certain that it *is* a GDPR breach, but I’ll bet dollars to donuts that the school won’t be sure either.)

At least the kids have learned an important lesson about secure messaging, maybe they’ll switch to something like Kix which doesn’t retain a message history. Quite literally a schoolboy error.

How about you sit down with him, read through the messages and discuss what is and is not appropriate. As you don’t know the content perhaps you should do.

Yeah that’s what’s we’d do and have done in the past, but I think that’s our responsibility as parents.

They’ve printed / typed out the entire group for all parents who’s kids are included and highlighted what they find inappropriate. The ‘worst offenders’ will be in isolation for the foreseeable and face exclusion

On what planet is a private message, regardless of the level of appropriateness, any business of anyone else let alone a school? Who the hell do they think they are?

On Scotland the following applies:

The four main categories of behaviour that prosecutors will distinguish between are:

Communications which specifically target an individual or group of individuals in particular communications which are considered to be hate crime, domestic abuse, or stalking.

Communications which may constitute credible threats of violence to the person, damage to property or to incite public disorder

Communications which may amount to a breach of a court order or contravene legislation making it a criminal offence to release or publish information relating to proceedings.

Communications which do not fall into categories 1,2 or 3 above but are nonetheless considered to be grossly offensive, indecent or obscene or involve the communication of false information about an individual or group of individuals which results in adverse consequences for that individual or group of individuals.

I’d guess that a group of kids (or anyone) could easily cross these lines. I’ve been in a chat group and had to ask people to tread lightly.

Kids are far more concerned about their phones than we as adults are. It’s literally their lifeline to social interaction.
If I was this teacher I’d have not been so dumb as to ask for the passwords, but I’d have confiscated the phones and then somehow they’d all have been left next to a powerful magnet. Oops. That’d learn em.

Seems bizarre to me that the teacher would give a **** about messages about them. Are you sure its not something else? I could see trying this sort of thing if it was a child safety issue or serious bullying etc and even then I reckon it would be handed up pretty quickly to the police.

I agree with above that the teacher has put themselves in a daft position(and should not consider reading what’s on them – as I doubt they’d be reassured in any way); I would hazard to guess though that this was due to being considerably upset. Having pupils send derogatory remarks about you via text etc, seems far worse than just talking about them. Most teachers go considerably out of their way to do the best for their pupils, and I think this can make such a situation feel particularly upsetting. I would think that if the accusations are true a sincere apology and reassurance that it wouldn’t happen again would be warranted and welcomed.
Edit: damn, now I see he wasn’t involved.

I am a teacher and I’m confident kids say unpleasant things about me. They say it to my face, and if i didn’t challenge appropriately, and hence attract their anger, I wouldn’t be doing my job. Am I bothered? Naw.

With regard to 30 kids in school uniform entering a building site: this IS the school’s business. It reflects on the school and on the school’s standing in the community. If we are held accountable for 19 year olds that left school 3 years ago getting pregnant (We are), then we are definately bothered about kids in school uniform getting up to mischief.

As a parent, IMO, you should be getting torn in to your lad about what he is getting drawn in to. He needs to know what is OK on WhatsApp etc, and what isn’t. The only way you can help him is to have an idea about what is going on on his phone and in his peer group. Ignorance is not an excuse on anyone’s part and you are the adult. If he can’t deal with these responsibilities, take the phone. If you want him to have the phone, then you have responsibilities too. Hiding behind GDPR is a pathetic way to go about abdicating parental responsibility.

You need to get the balance of support and challenge right. Forget kids slagging off teachers. This is always going to happen to a certain extent, and within certain boundaries it should be ignored. Serious allegations need to be taken seriously -“He’s a paedo!”- and challenged vigorously if spurious.

If you think the school have the time to indulge reading the family messages, let me know which school and I’ll go and work there.

Some of the stuff I have seen on kids phones is very concerning. Dealing to 11 year olds? Far right extremism? Extreme violence? Sexual expolitation, both perp. and victim? I have seen it all, and any parent who thinks marginalizing it or dismissing it is an appropriate response will have serious issues to deal with in the near future where bleating about GDPR just won’t cut it.

The influences on your son are as follows: School<Peers<Parents.

Your natural instinct is to defend your kid, but don’t forget the school is on your side, but needs you support to challenge him and the wider peer group. Don’t forget, you expressly forbade him to go there, but he did anyway. Can you afford to alienate your back up?

Interesting post @TroutWrestler. But do you (irrespective of GDPR which isn’t really the point here anyway as this has nothing to do with third-parties misusing personal data or holding it incorrectly) think the teacher the OP referred to had any right whatsoever to demand phones and passwords?

Some of the stuff I have seen on kids phones is very concerning.

How have you seen it?

Kids have zero concept of privacy or security on the internet, so adults have to teach them about that. Invading their privacy without cause or legal backing seems an odd way to go about it, since young people learn best from behaviours modelled by mentors, whoever they may be.

What would your reaction be to schools requiring teachers to disclose all the contents of all their digital devices, social media accounts etc publicly, so the public can be sure it is appropriate for them to be in charge of their kids?

@TroutWrestler

I can’t say I disagree with your post per-se, but I think it’s probably worth me clearing up a few things.

Yeah, we’ve explained to him in very clear terms that what he did was incredibly stupid and he’s being punished appropriately. On top of his 30 min detention in school.

We know as much as it’s possible to know what’s going on, on his phone – his Mum used to go through it nightly after we had some issues 6 months ago, unfortunately as is the nature of things, we made him up-skill and he began deleting all this messages before bedtime. Is that because he doesn’t want his mum to know who he fancies this week, or because he’s arranged to meet a stranger off the web? The only solution is to teach and reinforce the risks and dangers and ultimately trust him, we do have to make ‘spot checks’ now and again and his mum is logged into all his Social Media accounts on her phone. Whatsapp unfortunately can’t be monitored like that and when it’s deleted, it stays deleted.

Ultimately, I don’t have enough faith in anyone to have unrestricted access to my Son’s phone other than my Wife or I. I’m not hiding behind GDPR or anything else, the answer is no. The school is welcome to ask us to check it, but we do already. If they have a issue because ‘Billy from down the Flats’ has written “**** them, Mrs. Smith is a slag anyway” or whatever then ask someone else. I frankly think it’s the right of everyone to moan about authority, hell, I like my Boss, he’s a mate and a really decent bloke, but I call him all sorts to my wife after a hard day.

How have you seen it?

Very often they will show you.

I was shocked how many of the kids had watched the terror attack in Christchurch. Many didnt seem to think it was an odd thing to do at all. Its on the internet so they watched it.

I know that teachers have in from time to time been vilified on here for announcing that they are teachers, unlike any other job or profession – they just keep it to themselves.

So, I’m a teacher… and we recently had an assembly in which the community copper pointed out that if the phone is a contract phone then you have to be eighteen to have the contract in the first place, so it will therefore be in their parents or guardians name… so they have a large degree of responsibility. This came as a surprise to most, teachers with children themselves in particular.

Had a recent community incident involving a supposed indecent image and indeed the only person that could view the image was the police. GDPR Does indeed prevent teachers looking at pupils phones.

If it were down to me I’d ban them entirely for pupils at my* school as they cause more stress and anxiety for both pupils and staff, far more than could be offset than could be offset by using them for educational purposes.

* Other schools may hopefully have have management with the spine to instil discipline… it has to come from the top and the classroom teachers at my school are at our wits end.

Yep. Kids show me. Parents screen shot stuff and email it in for us to deal with. This is an elemnt of the job that has changed massively with widespread access to phones and the internet over the last 10 years. Often it is handed to the Police. We are dealing with everything from Child Sexual Exploitation to drug dealing and no end of distribution/creation of indecent images of children, usually by the children themselves.

Can teachers demand to see stuff? I simply ask kids to show me (if appropriate – many images I simply don’t want to see, a description is fine by me, and establishing that it actually exists, ie, not a rumour), and, if necessary, explain why it is a good idea. Fundamentally it comes down to trust, and the truth is, on balance they know I’m fair, honest and I’m looking out for them in both the short and long term. If they refuse and it becomes a matter for the Police, the stakes are raised, and they get this.

If this is simply a case of a teacher wanting to regularly trawl pupils phones to see if he/she is getting a slagging then he/she needs to grow a pair, and find a different job. Kids will say nasty stuff behind your back and to your face. Fact of life.

@P-jay Do we have the same boss?

@cromolyolly No worries. It’s called “Professionalism” and it goes with the territory. Regular PVG checks too. I’d support regular drug testing too, but then I don’t think I have anything to hide.

It’s called “Professionalism” and it goes with the territory. Regular PVG checks too. I’d support regular drug testing too, but then I don’t think I have anything to hide.

I don’t think that it is professionalism. Never complained about your boss/coworker/student in a text or email? Never said anything that could be misconstrued? Never put anything on it that you !aybe wouldn’t want anyone else to see? I find that really hard to believe.

Ah, old if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.